Shipbuilding Job Losses.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Let me turn this round the other way.

If Scotland becomes independent will the Scottish government put the building of naval ships out to tender to foreign countries or would they do everything possible to ensure that work was kept in Scotland ?

We cannot dictate to what would effectively be a foreign country where they should build their ships and just like the Scottish government would do, the UK government would look to try and ensure that work was done in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Philip Hammond the UK defence secretary has been asked directly a few times if Portsmouth would be re-opened and awarded future work earmarked for the Clyde if there is a Yes vote next year and he hasn't said that it would happen. What does this tell us? It is only Scottish Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MPs and MSPs who are peddling the line that a Yes vote will close down shipbuilding in Scotland while a No vote secures the yards for futures. What does that tell us?

If Scotland votes Yes in 2014 there will be an 18 month period where it is still part of the UK before it becomes independent in 2016. When the UK govt awards the contracts for the Type 26 vessels Scotland will still be in the UK even if we are by then on the road to independence, meaning, all the stuff about EU rules and defence contracts exemptions will have the same weight as they do now. The Scottish yards will also be run by a UK company.

[bluto]

If the UK Defence Secretary had answered in any way positively towards that then the Nats would have got their fillibegs in a twist about threatening noises from a so called UK POLITICIAN!

Naturally, he was political and noncommittal. That's his job.

That's all that it tells US.

However, feel free to twist your fillibeg.

Edited November 13, 2013 by bluto

[oaksoft]

If the UK Defence Secretary had answered in any way positively towards that then the Nats would have got their fillibegs in a twist about threatening noises from a so called UK POLITICIAN!

Naturally, he was political and noncommittal. That's his job.

That's all that it tells US.

However, feel free to twist your fillibeg.

Fillibeg

[oaksoft]

If the UK Defence Secretary had answered in any way positively towards that then the Nats would have got their fillibegs in a twist about threatening noises from a so called UK POLITICIAN!

Naturally, he was political and noncommittal. That's his job.

That's all that it tells US.

However, feel free to twist your fillibeg.

So if the guys in charge aren't saying anything, where are Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories getting their proof that the work will go to Portsmouth?

Unless they can prove that it will be going down there again it's obviously just fear mongering bullshit.

Worse - it's blatantly playing politics at a time when people are losing their jobs.

Edited November 13, 2013 by oaksoft

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So if the guys in charge aren't saying anything, where are Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories getting their proof that the work will go to Portsmouth?

Unless they can prove that it will be going down there again it's obviously just fear mongering bullshit.

Worse - it's blatantly playing politics at a time when people are losing their jobs.

People are losing their jobs Surely not, last week was a celebration of how we are better together

[bluto]

So if the guys in charge aren't saying anything, where are Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories getting their proof that the work will go to Portsmouth?

Unless they can prove that it will be going down there again it's obviously just fear mongering bullshit.

Worse - it's blatantly playing politics at a time when people are losing their jobs.

As you appear to have been a perpetual student now ensconced in the ivory towers of academia, with evidently little understanding of how it feels to be working class, I am constantly impressed by how you can consistently disparage 'politicians' on behalf of "the little people".

Well done.

Edited November 13, 2013 by bluto

[Dibbles old paperboy]

If the UK Defence Secretary had answered in any way positively towards that then the Nats would have got their fillibegs in a twist about threatening noises from a so called UK POLITICIAN!

Naturally, he was political and noncommittal. That's his job.

That's all that it tells US.

However, feel free to twist your fillibeg.

"In fact, the answer came from UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond himself when he announced the closure of Portsmouth's shipbuilding facilities. He could not have given the go-ahead for Govan had he not accepted the possibility that Scotland might become independent. He was asked repeatedly if he would consider cancelling the Type 26 orders after a Yes vote in next year's referendum and repeatedly he refused even to contemplate it. There is a very obvious reason why.

If BAE Systems, a private firm, was in any serious doubt about the contracts, it would not be pouring money into Govan and Scotstoun, and nor would the Government. BAE has run down its shipbuilding at Portsmouth and consolidated activities in Scotland not for political reasons, but for commercial ones: Scotland builds better and cheaper. It is almost impossible to see circumstances in which the orders would be now be cancelled, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

A Yes vote, remember, will not make Scotland independent overnight. There will be an 18-month transition period before Scotland becomes legally independent of the UK in 2016. The contracts will therefore be signed while Scotland is still part of the UK, which also means EU procurement rules do not come into play. Somehow this important fact got lost in last week's media storm.

Scottish voters have been left with the impression that if they vote Yes, they lose the Clyde - which is unfortunate to say the least. Certainly, Sturgeon has a right to be annoyed with Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrat Scottish Secretary, who came close to saying what Hammond would not: that the orders would be cancelled if Scotland votes Yes in September 2014. The Labour MP Ian Davidson went further and actually called for a wrecking clause to be placed in the Type 26 frigate orders such that they would automatically be cancelled if Scotland opts for independence. With friends like that …

Fortunately, the UK Government wasn't having any of it. Hammond does not want another procurement scandal on his hands so soon after the disaster of the current aircraft carrier contracts, now costing twice the original estimates. Imagine if next year he told BAE that, after all, he wanted them to dismantle Govan and Scotstoun and transport the skills and technology to redundant Portsmouth? The cost would be immense. It would be like moving the second Forth Road Bridge two miles up river after the foundations have been laid."

From Iain McWhirter, Sunday Herald, 10th November 2013

[Stuart Dickson]

http://player.stv.tv/programmes/contract-736/

Anyone wondering about the cause of the decline of shipbuilding on the Clyde should watch this. It's one hell of an unintentional hatchet job from STV from 1967. If I was a client I wouldn't be looking to place orders with the kind of fannies that feature in this.

[bluto]

"In fact, the answer came from UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond himself when he announced the closure of Portsmouth's shipbuilding facilities. He could not have given the go-ahead for Govan had he not accepted the possibility that Scotland might become independent. He was asked repeatedly if he would consider cancelling the Type 26 orders after a Yes vote in next year's referendum and repeatedly he refused even to contemplate it. There is a very obvious reason why.[/size]

If BAE Systems, a private firm, was in any serious doubt about the contracts, it would not be pouring money into Govan and Scotstoun, and nor would the Government. BAE has run down its shipbuilding at Portsmouth and consolidated activities in Scotland not for political reasons, but for commercial ones: Scotland builds better and cheaper. It is almost impossible to see circumstances in which the orders would be now be cancelled, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

......Imagine if next year he told BAE that, after all, he wanted them to dismantle Govan and Scotstoun and transport the skills and technology to redundant Portsmouth? The cost would be immense. It would be like moving the second Forth Road Bridge two miles up river after the foundations have been laid."

From Iain McWhirter, Sunday Herald, 10th November 2013

A nice quote, Ta.

That final simile made me consider the irony of the panic about the Forth Road Bridge collapsing, forcing the funding and emergency building of another Forth Road Bridge less than two miles up river only to find the original bridge wasn't that bad. The cost IS immense.

Imagine, indeed!

[Dibbles old paperboy]

A nice quote, Ta.

That final simile made me consider the irony of the panic about the Forth Road Bridge collapsing, forcing the funding and emergency building of another Forth Road Bridge less than two miles up river only to find the original bridge wasn't that bad. The cost IS immense.

Imagine, indeed! :

I think MacWhirter's point is that after the cost of building the 2 new aircraft carriers doubling under the Conservatives and Lib Dems that Hammond will not want to get in to a situation where Portsmouth is closed as a shipbuilding yard, people are laid off, the area gets regeneration money, the Clyde yards get the work and investment and then that decision gets reversed if Scotland votes Yes and instead the Clyde yards and Rosyth are closed, Portsmouth gets re-opened but the work is delayed as they need to invest in the yard and re-employee the workforce.

It could be they are supremely confident there will be a No vote and no need to contemplate reversing the decision.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

http://player.stv.tv/programmes/contract-736/

Anyone wondering about the cause of the decline of shipbuilding on the Clyde should watch this. It's one hell of an unintentional hatchet job from STV from 1967. If I was a client I wouldn't be looking to place orders with the kind of fannies that feature in this.

46 years ago

[Stuart Dickson]

46 years ago

Yep and ship building on the Clyde has been in terminal decline ever since.

One of the things that was interesting when watching it was the number of people who claimed that the QE2 was of such a high standard, such quality, that it would herald the start of a new industry on the Clyde building luxury cruise ships yet not one has been built on the Clyde since. Whilst Germany, who the programme describes as making mechanised vessels that float and not proper ships, has gone on to become one of the world leaders in the cruise ship market.

[stlucifer]

Yep and ship building on the Clyde has been in terminal decline ever since.

One of the things that was interesting when watching it was the number of people who claimed that the QE2 was of such a high standard, such quality, that it would herald the start of a new industry on the Clyde building luxury cruise ships yet not one has been built on the Clyde since. Whilst Germany, who the programme describes as making mechanised vessels that float and not proper ships, has gone on to become one of the world leaders in the cruise ship market.

Look deeper into it and, like most European shipbuilding and offshore yards there are a great number of expats delivering the knowhow and expertise.

The reason for this is quite simple. They follow the M_O_N_E_Y!

The exodus began years ago and it continues to this day. Ifs and buts, but who knows what would have happened if we kept our highly skilled and highly sought after workforce.

As it is we now augment our homegrown staff with an influx of Poles etc. who are willing to work for less therefore perpetuating the downward spiral of salaries causing more to seek better recompense for their labours further afield. It's a vicious circle.

[oaksoft]

As it is we now augment our homegrown staff with an influx of Poles etc. who are willing to work for less therefore perpetuating the downward spiral of salaries causing more to seek better recompense for their labours further afield. It's a vicious circle.

Which salaries are specifically being driven down and where is the proof that it's Poles causing that downward pressure?

I should add that the average salary in the UK is about £26,000 per year so I'm not seeing evidence of immigrant workers pushing anything down.

Edited November 15, 2013 by oaksoft

[stlucifer]

Which salaries are specifically being driven down and where is the proof that it's Poles causing that downward pressure?

I should add that the average salary in the UK is about £26,000 per year so I'm not seeing evidence of immigrant workers pushing anything down.

I work in the off shore industry. Specifically engineering and manufacturing equipment for pipe and cable laying and launching and landing rig "jackets". I see first hand the use by external contractors of, in particular, Polish workers as it is CHEAPER to pay for these guys to come over than it is to pay the proper going rate for the industry. This forces those who need the work to accept lower rates of pay than before. I canassure you that this IS driving down the rate for good, experienced UK resident tradesmen.

Edited November 15, 2013 by stlucifer

[Barney63]

I'm pretty sure the average wage including part time workers is even lower than £26k, around £22k and the median wage lower still presumably- around £21k .

I suppose the point is we're in a European freedom of labour market now and that pay rate differentials are supposed to even out which in reality isn't happening quickly disadvantaging workers here. On the other hand, if pay was much higher in Poland our boys could go there and undercut the locals. Problem then might be around qualifications. I don't know about engineering, I suspect we're pretty strong there, but in construction I've a few builder friends in Sweden (well, three) who agree they'd be unlikely to hire Brits - they tell me the guys who come over are so relatively unqualified/ unskilled compared to the local trades, yet expect top rates.

[Stuart Dickson]

Look deeper into it and, like most European shipbuilding and offshore yards there are a great number of expats delivering the knowhow and expertise.

The reason for this is quite simple. They follow the M_O_N_E_Y!

The exodus began years ago and it continues to this day. Ifs and buts, but who knows what would have happened if we kept our highly skilled and highly sought after workforce.

As it is we now augment our homegrown staff with an influx of Poles etc. who are willing to work for less therefore perpetuating the downward spiral of salaries causing more to seek better recompense for their labours further afield. It's a vicious circle.

I'm not sure how many are in the European yards these days. It certainly used to be a regular occurrence that UK tradesmen would be recruited to work in yards in the Netherlands but I think more recently those with the best transferable skills have been more likely to work in the middle east or in places like Singapore. You are right that they follow the money - can't blame anyone at all for that - but isn't it as sad reflection Scottish engineering that even with lower wages we haven't managed to diversify to the extent where we can even begin to attract the kind of work that goes to Germany.

Watch that footage from the STV and you'll be reminded that after the QE2 sailed John Browns stopped bidding for ships and moved into turbines - yet despite almost four decades of experience when the Scottish Government decided we were going to put up those fecking stupid wind farms everywhere we've had to ship them in from China and Germany rather than have the capability to build our own.

I think it comes back to the kind of graduates we pump out of our University system to be honest. There's too little talent in the graduate pool these days and they haven't got a clue about what markets they should be hunting down.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Which salaries are specifically being driven down and where is the proof that it's Poles causing that downward pressure?

I should add that the average salary in the UK is about £26,000 per year so I'm not seeing evidence of immigrant workers pushing anything down.

A relatively small number of people, earning obscene amounts of money inflates the average

[stlucifer]

I'm not sure how many are in the European yards these days. It certainly used to be a regular occurrence that UK tradesmen would be recruited to work in yards in the Netherlands but I think more recently those with the best transferable skills have been more likely to work in the middle east or in places like Singapore. You are right that they follow the money - can't blame anyone at all for that - but isn't it as sad reflection Scottish engineering that even with lower wages we haven't managed to diversify to the extent where we can even begin to attract the kind of work that goes to Germany.

Watch that footage from the STV and you'll be reminded that after the QE2 sailed John Browns stopped bidding for ships and moved into turbines - yet despite almost four decades of experience when the Scottish Government decided we were going to put up those fecking stupid wind farms everywhere we've had to ship them in from China and Germany rather than have the capability to build our own.

I think it comes back to the kind of graduates we pump out of our University system to be honest. There's too little talent in the graduate pool these days and they haven't got a clue about what markets they should be hunting down.

Try writing sensible replies SD.

You destroy your own argument almost immediately. Pay peanuts... Get monkeys is the old adage.

Scottish engineering skills are drained by not only the southern hemisphere. Norway uses them and pay substantially more for the privilege. Eastern European countries such as Azerbaijan and, to a lesser extent because of its instability, Kazakhstan have many Scottish workers, (and others from the UK). They are there in their droves.

Our industry has been desimated by greed. Yes. In the first instance, the unions decided they could hold companies to ransom but, for me, even more damage was done by government attempting to destroy the unions allowing companies to drive down wages and giving those who were best at their chosen field a reason to opt for better recompense for their endeavours.

You spout p**h and dress it up as fact while ignoring those who actually work in the industry just to antagonise and cajoule people into reacting to your nonsense.

A sad and destructive little man who has delusions of grandeur. Ring true?

Edited November 16, 2013 by stlucifer

[oaksoft]

I work in the off shore industry. Specifically engineering and manufacturing equipment for pipe and cable laying and launching and landing rig "jackets". I see first hand the use by external contractors of, in particular, Polish workers as it is CHEAPER to pay for these guys to come over than it is to pay the proper going rate for the industry. This forces those who need the work to accept lower rates of pay than before. I canassure you that this IS driving down the rate for good, experienced UK resident tradesmen.

What is the average wage for those offshore jobs?

[oaksoft]

I'm pretty sure the average wage including part time workers is even lower than £26k, around £22k and the median wage lower still presumably- around £21k .

I suppose the point is we're in a European freedom of labour market now and that pay rate differentials are supposed to even out which in reality isn't happening quickly disadvantaging workers here. On the other hand, if pay was much higher in Poland our boys could go there and undercut the locals. Problem then might be around qualifications. I don't know about engineering, I suspect we're pretty strong there, but in construction I've a few builder friends in Sweden (well, three) who agree they'd be unlikely to hire Brits - they tell me the guys who come over are so relatively unqualified/ unskilled compared to the local trades, yet expect top rates.

It depends on how you look at it but all of those salaries are decent wages anyway.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to complain about struggling to survive if they are earning in excess of £21k.

I read about one woman claiming it was impossible to live on less than £38k and another whining about "only" getting £50k.

Barking!

Your last sentence makes interesting reading.

This is also true in software development.

IMO the biggest problem with UK workers is their attitude and work ethic.

We THINK we are great but actually in terms of ability we're a bit crap.

This is more than just about wages as you said at the end.

Most successful businesses will make a balance between skill and salary.

Of course some companies will try and squeeze wages at the expense of quality but those businesses rarely survive and are probably not worth working in anyway.

[stlucifer]

What is the average wage for those offshore jobs?

An average is very hard to define as the jobs are so varied. I can say that, from my experience, on average for any given discipline, you would receive at least an extra 50%. AND you would be paid living allowances or hotel fees as well if the jobs were of a temporary nature.

[oaksoft]

An average is very hard to define as the jobs are so varied. I can say that, from my experience, on average for any given discipline, you would receive at least an extra 50%. AND you would be paid living allowances or hotel fees as well if the jobs were of a temporary nature.

That's the problem though.

Without average figures how can anyone be certain that Polish workers are causing a trend?

I'm sure there are guys who will work for less (as in any industry) and TBH, no disrespect but if I'm going for the same job as you I'll set my salary demand at the lowest point I need to beat you to the post.

I'm happy to work for expenses depending on circumstances and have twice worked for 4 months for free to gain experience which allowed me to get a paid position I'd never have got wothout the experience.

I'm not sure enough people are doing this to cause a demonstrable downward trend in wages.

We're not talking about salaries dropping to minimum wage are we so I'm not really sure I see the problem here.

Edited November 16, 2013 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

I think it comes back to the kind of graduates we pump out of our University system to be honest. There's too little talent in the graduate pool these days and they haven't got a clue about what markets they should be hunting down.

Here we go again.

The graduate quality oracle speaks despite never having set foot in a Uni.

Bud, you have no idea the breadth of skills a typical graduate from a decent university on a decent course will have gained.

You see one skill missing (perhaps the ability to tap a thread) and you condemn them all as useless bastards.

You were trying to persuade us that many graduates can't read or spell a few years back.

Take the chip off your shoulder.

A fresh graduate will earn £26k to £40k straight out of uni.

Employers are paying that because they clearly think they have skills and talent which non graduates don't have.

Hundreds of thousands of employers prostitute themselves at the 100 or so unis across the UK every year to sign up these people you are calling useless - even when those graduates have absolutely no work experience.

Seriously, try getting a job payinjg that money with no work experience without a degree and see how far you get.

But hey, they must all be wrong and you must be right.

Live with it.

ETA: Here's a nice wee job for fresh graduates who only need a 2:2 honours degree.

http://www.grb.uk.com/graduate-jobs/jaguar-land-rover-commercial-engineering-various-14573

£plus benefits 29k straight out of uni?

Here's another vast list from the oil and gas sector.

Every one of them wants a graduate.

All these companies must be wrong eh?

http://www.oilcareers.com/content/categories/graduate.asp

Edited November 16, 2013 by oaksoft

[Guest TPAFKATS]

It depends on how you look at it but all of those salaries are decent wages anyway.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to complain about struggling to survive if they are earning in excess of £21k.

I read about one woman claiming it was impossible to live on less than £38k and another whining about "only" getting £50k.

Barking!

Your last sentence makes interesting reading.

This is also true in software development.

IMO the biggest problem with UK workers is their attitude and work ethic.

We THINK we are great but actually in terms of ability we're a bit crap.

This is more than just about wages as you said at the end.

Most successful businesses will make a balance between skill and salary.

Of course some companies will try and squeeze wages at the expense of quality but those businesses rarely survive and are probably not worth working in anyway.

Definition of sweeping generalisation?