beyond our ken Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Bollocks. The Charlie people were murdered just for drawing cartoons. That IS an attack on freedom and the free press. Or do you really think that is laughable? Other people have published similar stuff. (I linked to this morning's Guardian to show today's cartoon). How can you possibly say they were offensive? You CAN say repressive nutters who have impossibly thin skin and scarily heightened perceptions of what may be deemed offensive by THEM, and that THEY don't like them. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong them in the real world. And they don't offend people unless people want to take offence. The queen has disliked some of the drawings and paintings done of her by that doesn't mean they are genuinely offensive. I agree that not everyone needs to publish Muhammed stuff, but if the few who wish to do so are going to be terrorised for that, then I think it right that THEY should be suported. Consider the Fatwa on Salman Rushdie. I had found that his style of writing bored me, put me off, so I'd stopped buying his books. I now have a copy of his Satanic Verses, (unread) just as a token of support. ETA: Sevco fans have intimidated the Scottish Press and broadcasters into not using the word LIQUIDATION in reference to them. It happened. It is a reality. They find it offensive. The Press in Scotland never mention it. Ra Peepul have terrorised them into silence. Shocking. That is no good for reality, for the country in general. Would you come out in support of ra Peepul's point of view? To what extent is your life devalued, your belief system (if you have one) undermined or your safety threatened by rangers not liking the L word? There is a word that black people don't like-do you use it to their faces as a demonstration of your right to free speech? In the house, do you say exactly what you want to your missus or do you exercise a degree of caution when expressing yourself? (no dear, it's not the coat-your arse really is horrible and huge) Or maybe you selectively reserve your right to free speech for use on the issues that you deem to be free-speech worthy on any particular day. You may not like religion and there may be aspects of all religions that need to change, but you aint gonna get that change overnight, especially by making people feel like shit. The biggest problem with the right to free speech is that people tend to exercise it Edited January 13, 2015 by beyond our ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 point accepted but would you broadcast your views on the knuckledraggers of the celtic support and then make sure the clientele of the wig & pen knew who and where you were? The killers were wrong according to my beliefs and views, they also probably felt that lashing out in this way would help their own cause. In the west, they are perceived to have set their cause back. in the Muslim world they will be perceived as having struck a heroic blow for their cause against those that control the media and use it to oppress their kind/ There was no need to provoke these people, especially in the racially tense atmosphere in France. At the end of the day, it is usually someone innocent who pays for other's so-called right to free speech. Social progress is a process, not a series of events initiated at the random behest of the self-appointed intelligensia and you wont imbue Islam with your own version of western values and behaviours by simply ridiculing it's followers. it never ceases to amaze me when a partially educated self-styled and self-appointed intellectual elite think it is ok to provoke less privileged and less well-educated groups who are already feeling disenfranchised and mistreated, then proclaim them to be evil when members of those groups react in a very predictable violent way. Not everyone has the power of words and many who do still find they are not listened to. To then mock those groups is insensitive and ultimately suicidal. Satire is best used as a way of knocking the establishment and the privileged members of society, using it to further alienate the left-behinds of the world is playing with fire and is actually a bit sick. The publishing of cartoons is not an attempt to provoke less privileged people nor to mock them. The establishment and privileged in Islamic society tend to be those at the top of the religious groups - like in the West - supported by the very underclass you're singling out for pity. If anything, the freedom to worship as one wishes seems to me to the best thing. No priests or mullahs to interfere between you and your god, if you have one. They were just drawings. A manifestation of freedom of speech and thought. The kind of thing we do on this forum. The Mods on here are generally very long-suffering and generally open-minded. There are posters I find either boring or offensive. I ignore them. I do not demand a fatwa nor for them to be banned. I don't take offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I see. Any depiction of an imaginary entity is 'an attack'? So much for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, You choose to ignore the point about the 50 million 'The Rangers' fans around the world who are offended by the linking of the word LIQUIDATION' with their club. And ignore that they have intimidated the Scottish media into not using it. Instead the Scottish Press and BBC have come up with complicated, convoluted, long-winded, incredible explanations as to why Sevco started in Division 4 - and it's possibly why you haven't understood how BIG a deal it is going into liquidation. It won't be easy to climb back out. I understand that. You don't seem to think so. Maybe I understand that because my knowledge of liquidation has not been altered. And that's because I don't trust the media. I believe they are, in the main, cowardly and more likely to take the easiest route out of any possible confrontation - rather than be honest and address it head on. You have a weird, to me, appreciation of the press. Tolerant?! Nah... For instance, I wouldn't call the Sun's depiction of Liverpool fans as tolerant. And I offer my apologies for writing something too difficult for you. I'll try to lower my standards to that of your favoured MSM. Why you insist on drawing parallels between Sevco fans, the 96 who perished at hillsborough and several million peaceful muslims i'll have to declare myself unable to comprehend. My point about tolerance is not that the press set that standard, they almost always invariably fail given their need to generate profit, and whatever political party they choose to back at any given time. People, society exercise tolerance, i choose to exercise when it comes to sevco, maybe because it gives me so many laughs? Its ironic isn't it that you say last week was an attack on the freedom of the press,then contradict yourself by citing examples i actually agree with that show there is no real thing such as press freedom. How can it be so if they implore us to vote for one party over another? As regards administration, liquidation etc... The road back is hard, but i know there are many buds who would swap it to get out of this groundhog day scenario of ever decreasing circles that have enveloped the club. The simple facts are if the Argentines takeover, that business model will fail, now do you want to be part of the solution at that point? That's what i'm all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 To what extent is your life devalued, your belief system (if you have one) undermined or your safety threatened by rangers not liking the L word? Other than the word (The ONLY word to accurately describe what has happened!) never being used in the press when talking about the deid club and sevco, my life is of course not devalued. However, I would think that those who get their information from the aforesaid papers are being poorly served. The freedom of the Scottish press is compromised. There is a word that black people don't like-do you use it to their faces as a demonstration of your right to free speech? No, there are other words that can do the same job and which they find more acceptable. In the house, do you say exactly what you want to your missus or do you exercise a degree of caution when expressing yourself? (no dear, it's not the coat-your arse really is horrible and huge) Irrelevant. She's perfect. : Or maybe you selectively reserve your right to free speech for use on the issues that you deem to be free-speech worthy on any particular day. Nah... You may not like religion and there may be aspects of all religions that need to change, but you aint gonna get that change overnight, it certainly won't overnight if you can't discuss it honestly and openly. especially by making people feel like shit. I think responsibility for that feeling like that, falls equally on those who proscribe how you should feel when confronted by a drawing of an imaginary entity. The biggest problem with the right to free speech is that people tend to exercise it. See my post above. I think a bigger problem is when others react to it, stupidly. Apologies in advance for the red ink. Lord Pityme gets migraine when I use it. I think. It certainly offends him. I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why you insist on drawing parallels between Sevco fans, the 96 who perished at hillsborough and several million peaceful muslims i'll have to declare myself unable to comprehend. A shame, that. I was using them in an attempt to offer examples of why it's better to be open, honest and truthful. Reading on, I see you prefer 'tolerance' which I view as deceit and complicity, which I believe in the long run does no one good. I was trying to help you comprehend. There is no common ground. My bad. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 To what extent is your life devalued, your belief system (if you have one) undermined or your safety threatened by rangers not liking the L word? Other than the word (The ONLY word to accurately describe what has happened!) never being used in the press when talking about the deid club and sevco, my life is of course not devalued. However, I would think that those who get their information from the aforesaid papers are being poorly served. The freedom of the Scottish press is compromised. There is a word that black people don't like-do you use it to their faces as a demonstration of your right to free speech? No, there are other words that can do the same job and which they find more acceptable. In the house, do you say exactly what you want to your missus or do you exercise a degree of caution when expressing yourself? (no dear, it's not the coat-your arse really is horrible and huge) Irrelevant. She's perfect. : Or maybe you selectively reserve your right to free speech for use on the issues that you deem to be free-speech worthy on any particular day. Nah... You may not like religion and there may be aspects of all religions that need to change, but you aint gonna get that change overnight, it certainly won't overnight if you can't discuss it honestly and openly. especially by making people feel like shit. I think responsibility for that feeling like that, falls equally on those who proscribe how you should feel when confronted by a drawing of an imaginary entity. The biggest problem with the right to free speech is that people tend to exercise it. See my post above. I think a bigger problem is when others react to it, stupidly. Apologies in advance for the red ink. Lord Pityme gets migraine when I use it. I think. It certainly offends him. I hope. Whilst working in retail the more experienced among us never, repeat never did house visits following up a customer complaint if the letter the complaint arrived in was written in red/green ink! Think when Alan Partridge met his biggest fan in his house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Whilst working in retail the more experienced among us never, repeat never did house visits following up a customer complaint if the letter the complaint arrived in was written in red/green ink! Think when Alan Partridge met his biggest fan in his house. Here's a black thing for you... with a link which may be a wee bit coloured... http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/former-rangers-owner-whyte-involved-in-behind-closed-doors-high-court-hearing.1421154081 It's a fine example of Scottish press contortions when supposedly explaining and talking about Rangers. No mention of liquidation but other ways to avoid mentioning it. 'Slid down the ladder', no mention of the newco nor the dirty deal to let them in a back door. All the while talking about someone they think is a crook who was deeply involved in Rangers and their business practices. Shoddy and self-destructive, not to mention doing their readers a grave disservice. How can you consider that 'tolerant'? ETA: Treating inky customers in such a way is intolerant!... And I don't know enough about Alan Partridge to get the reference. Sorry. Edited January 13, 2015 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Here's a black thing for you... with a link which may be a wee bit coloured... http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/former-rangers-owner-whyte-involved-in-behind-closed-doors-high-court-hearing.1421154081 It's a fine example of Scottish press contortions when supposedly explaining and talking about Rangers. No mention of liquidation but other ways to avoid mentioning it. 'Slid down the ladder', no mention of the newco nor the dirty deal to let them in a back door. All the while talking about someone they think is a crook who was deeply involved in Rangers and their business practices. Shoddy and self-destructive, not to mention doing their readers a grave disservice. How can you consider that 'tolerant'? ETA: Treating inky customers in such a way is intolerant!... And I don't know enough about Alan Partridge to get the reference. Sorry. Fifth paragraph just up on their website, dont see any taboo words their? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30800155 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Fifth paragraph just up on their website, dont see any taboo words their? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30800155 True. In this instance. And that's cause the BBC have been forced to phrase every utterance in a specific way to avoid offending the People. You are aware how Jim Spence was treated by them - and then by his employers? And again last week - Jim Delahunt - hounded just cos he read out something from a listener mentioning the L word? Is that healthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Mohammed wasn't imaginary - Allah on the other hand ... Yup. You're right. I realised after having typed and posted with the easier wee name that I was wrong. Unlike in Christianity, the two (or three) don't conflate. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 True. In this instance. And that's cause the BBC have been forced to phrase every utterance in a specific way to avoid offending the People. You are aware how Jim Spence was treated by them - and then by his employers? And again last week - Jim Delahunt - hounded just cos he read out something from a listener mentioning the L word? Is that healthy? No but it is very funny considering its ongoing absurdity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) No but it is very funny considering its ongoing absurdity Of course, I wholeheartedly agree. I get hours of pleasure from following the gift that keeps on giving. Doubtless you get similar hilarity from someone being unable to laugh at or ignore a drawing? Absurd, funny... but dangerous and to be resisted. Or do you still not get the parallels? eta: Gone to the gym. Given up posting. But only for this afternoon. Edited January 13, 2015 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Hear, hear.... Remember the french only take on/colonise where the biggest threat is pointy fruit!By your own standards, would this post not be offensive and antagonistic to the French? Edited January 13, 2015 by TPAFKATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Oh FFS no! You can't intern people for saying things you don't agree with. Esp governments as they invariably use this to forward their own aims. Oh FFS no! You can't intern people for saying things you don't agree with. Esp governments as they invariably use this to forward their own aims. Your not reading my post correctly TS I'm writing about people who have a 'proven' direct link with an extremist group. Are you saying it's worth the risk to have them walking the streets of the UK if they have just come back from Syria trained to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 By your own standards, would this post not be offensive and antagonistic to the French? I will wait and see how many communicate such feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Your not reading my post correctly TS I'm writing about people who have a 'proven' direct link with an extremist group. Are you saying it's worth the risk to have them walking the streets of the UK if they have just come back from Syria trained to kill.I suppose that's the problem. This 'proven' term as unfortunately governments have a track record of imprisoning innocent people and those who disagree with them.You also need to define extremist as again governments have previous on this. Remember uk gov was backing these groups a year ago and wanting to arm them? Mibees if gov and their security services only tracked the extremists as opposed to wanting to keep tabs on everyone they might get on better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I see the French value of Liberte' doesn't extend to non arty Parisians as they have just locked up 54 people over what they have said. I suppose if they made a magazine full of cartoons about islam that they would have been hailed as great expressionists! Edited January 14, 2015 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 It really all depends on what they said, does it not? I don't know what they said so I can't really pass judgement. It was more about who they were saying it about! The comedian bloke was locked up for saying something about jews. So it shows all this free speech stuff is crap and frenchie double standards. The make themselves look stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 It was more about who they were saying it about! The comedian bloke was locked up for saying something about jews. So it shows all this free speech stuff is crap and frenchie double standards. The make themselves look stupidNo.You're twisting things. The difference being that everything published by Charlie was within the law. Anyone arrested was not. Liberty, equality and fraternity.... You are free to be free as long as it hurts no one and breaks no law. "Saying something about the jews" - that, in itself, has the stench of equivocation about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 The law in France would appear to allow cartoonists to publish but not allow a comedian to tweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 No. You're twisting things. The difference being that everything published by Charlie was within the law. Anyone arrested was not. Liberty, equality and fraternity.... You are free to be free as long as it hurts no one and breaks no law. "Saying something about the jews" - that, in itself, has the stench of equivocation about it. one law for one race, but not another? They tried that in south Africa, and aparts of America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Again, it depends on what was said. Saying "Jews eat Kosher food" is saying something about Jews. Saying "Gas all Jews" is also saying something about Jews. I'll let you decide which one is acceptable and which one would, in most countries, get you, quite rightly, arrested. Content and context, my friend, content and context. sorry did i miss something has someone used you latter comment in the public domain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 one law for one race, but not another? They tried that in south Africa, and aparts of America. This has no relation to anything I posted. Looks like it dropped out of outer space and filtered through your keyboard onto the forum. I'm sure it means well, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 This has no relation to anything I posted. Looks like it dropped out of outer space and filtered through your keyboard onto the forum. I'm sure it means well, though... was that the sound of a towel being slung into the ring i just heard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I don't see what you're getting at here. did one of the people arrested for expressing their views in France say "gas all jews" as you mention above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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