oaksoft Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: He said he "chose a belief" so I, wrongly, assumed he meant religion. Don't see what else is confusing about my post. You pissed? In order to debunk your point I only need two things. Firstly, I need a counter-argument. Secondly, I need to know I'm not presenting that counter-argument to a wind-up merchant. I will assume the latter because I want to end this discussion the correct way. Here is my counter-argument. You talked about a white sheet of paper. Let me quote you directly. If you have a sheet of white paper in front of you, and you know that it's white (i.e. you're not blind, there is light, etc), then you cannot choose to believe that it is any other colour. You can choose to act as if you believe that it is another colour, but that is not believing. Now hold that sheet of paper under a sodium lamp and tell me what colour it is. It won't look white. Colour is not an absolute quantity. It is completely dependent on the absorption and reflection of the various wavelengths hitting it. If you now know that is it white under normal sunlight and yellow under a sodium lamp then you must choose which colour to believe that it is or even whether to believe that it is meaningful to describe it as having a colour at all. There is no necessarily correct answer but it's clear you have to choose what to believe and you do so consciously. Edited September 16, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: If someone didn't believe it then it wouldn't be a "convincing argument" to them, would it? Are you convinced of things that you don't believe? Do you believe things that you aren't convinced of? Do you choose to be convinced by something or is it just something that happens automatically? I suppose you could say that believing something (or not) is largely influenced by previously accumulated knowledge, experience and expectations. Different people have different knowledge, experience and expectations, therefore they can easily come to different conclusions. As you posted earlier, your point is that you can't consciously choose to believe. And yet you muddy the waters by posting confused stuff like the above which leaves everyone scratching their heads about what on earth you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 Groundhog Day........................part 27. P&B doesn't get this level of, erm, debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 32 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:   I thought it was obvious, without having to state it, that you were to try and believe it wasn't white while it was under the same conditions. If I was writing a scientific paper about it then I would state things like that, this is a football forum, FFS. You'd be as well saying "but what if you dipped it in orange dye, it wouldn't be white". .  There is nothing f**king obvious about anything you are posting. But seeing as how you are changing the goalposts every time I pierce a hole in your argument, I am going to bail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 If someone didn't believe it then it wouldn't be a "convincing argument" to them, would it?Are you convinced of things that you don't believe?Do you believe things that you aren't convinced of?Do you choose to be convinced by something or is it just something that happens automatically?I suppose you could say that believing something (or not) is largely influenced by previously accumulated knowledge, experience and expectations. Different people have different knowledge, experience and expectations, therefore they can easily come to different conclusions.But the people who DID believe the "non-convincing" argument?Did they then not choose to do so if the argument itself was not sufficiently compelling for the others to do so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 You're just being silly now, aren't you?What is convincing for one person, might not be for another.An argument can be both convincing and non-convincing at the same time, just, obviously, not for the same person.Which in other words, is choice![emoji23][emoji12] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 What isn't obvious? What goalposts am I changing (though, I think you meant "moving")? What argument have you pierced a hole in? I gave an example that, to most people, would have been acceptable, however, you chose to change the conditions of the example to "find a flaw". Fair enough. I have now given a slightly different example, either answer it or point out the flaws in it.Or, using BiEK's example, if you hear a non-convincing argument, can you choose to believe it? Is it possible for others to hear the same argument, find it convincing, and choose not to believe it?Or, if you like, take anything you believe and choose, right now, to not believe it.To make a choice there has to be at least two options. If you don't find an argument convincing then there are no options and you automatically don't believe it.I think it is both of you who are at the wind-up.Simple...You hear the "evidence", consider it, then choose to be convinced by it or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 This argument/debate/whatever could have ended long ago.There are those who believe I am wrong (BiEK, oaky, etc). If I am, they could have ended it by "choosing" to believe that I'm right. Funny that not one of them did that to prove me wrong. But your argument is far from convincing! [emoji12] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: This argument/debate/whatever could have ended long ago. There are those who believe I am wrong (BiEK, oaky, etc). If I am, they could have ended it by "choosing" to believe that I'm right. Funny that not one of them did that to prove me wrong. Are you Baz's twin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 According to you, that doesn't matter. You think you have the choice whether or not to believe it, so you could surely choose to believe an unconvincing argument. On you go, choose to believe me and let's end this, should be easy for you.     Personally, I choose NOT to believe you... But even though you are wrong, others may well choose to believe you. That's fine by me.Their choice! [emoji12] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: Personally, I choose NOT to believe you... But even though you are wrong, others may well choose to believe you. That's fine by me. Their choice! This ping pong game could go on for ever. It can't be simpler. One chooses to believe. The act of choosing may not be based on logic or evidence but the choice is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: It obviously can't go on for ever as at some point very soon Jesus will come back and take all the masochistic sycophantic book worshipers of the death cult up to the clouds and send the rest of us to the big bad fire and everyone knows that there's no internet in the afterlife 'cos in the clouds everyone has got to spend all their time praising the immoral genocidal high heid yin and in the big bad fire all the stuff that makes it work would melt. So there. You just a poo-poo. Wish he'd fecking hurry up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: It obviously can't go on for ever as at some point very soon Jesus will come back and take all the masochistic sycophantic book worshipers of the death cult up to the clouds and send the rest of us to the big bad fire and everyone knows that there's no internet in the afterlife 'cos in the clouds everyone has got to spend all their time praising the immoral genocidal high heid yin and in the big bad fire all the stuff that makes it work would melt. So there. You just a poo-poo. The monkeys were right when they wrote that song for you I'm a believer " In what I don't know, but you do believe. That's fine. Logic is your guiding force aided by evidence. Again. No problem. What you don't get is that others may not follow the same path in considering this or come to a different conclusion to yours. They, like you, choose. I'm quite happy that you have chosen what you have. Why not be open to others making a different choice to yours being no less valid in their eyes.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddymarvellous Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 I’m with Slarti for what it’s worth. You either believe or don’t believe. You don’t choose to believe or choose not to believe. Just to annoy everyone... ...end of.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:   It really is pointless in engaging with you, isn't it? You really don't get it at all.  Oh.. I get it. You don't. People.. You.. Me.. Others make their own choices... Fine with me. I don't care if that decision is based on logic or evidence or a conscious or subconscious basis. You do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said: 1 hour ago, faraway saint said: Wish he'd fecking hurry up. How do you know that it hasn't already happened and this is your personal hell? You could well be right after reading this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 38 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: It really is pointless in engaging with you, isn't it? You really don't get it at all.  It's taken you this long to come to that conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, faraway saint said: It's taken you this long to come to that conclusion? I thought he would have concluded that about you a long time ago Haddock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: You obviously don't get it. It isn't about choices in general, it's specifically about the ability to choose to believe.  Unless you can provide something constructive, I'm not even going to entertain you on this thread as I'm having to repeat myself enough as it is, without having to go over everything again just for you - read the thread. I'm consciously choosing to do this, but that doesn't refute my point. Oh I get it.. You refuse to open your mind to alternative approaches whilst I am willing to keep mine open. No offence intended but I have heard your argument many times. It always falters on respecting other people's right to see things differently. It's either your way or no way. Whereas, I'm perfectly happy that you see it from your perspective and others from theirs. Surely choosing involves having an open mind. Without an open mind there can be no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Just choose to believe that I'm right. I previously considered that he might be a crap WUM, but I no longer consider that to be a realistic option. He just doesn't seem to get, well, anything at all. Yep, you're right, he's the real deal. Has little understanding of, as you say, anything. Regurgitates other posts in the main. All together a waste of space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: WOO-HOO, I got something right. You and F Man are constrained by the narrow approach to argument. You both tend to well trodden, hackneyed approaches supported by mutual back slapping unaware that life has moved on beyond you. Try thinking with an open mind. You might just choose to change. Then again, if you are unaware, how can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Slartibartfast said: And the proof just keeps coming ... ... Emoji. My case rests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: and coming ... ... And again.. Resort to emoji. Just like your pal the Haddock. Dad.. Yes. Funny.. No. Bereft of argument.. Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Proof that some people just don't understand basic probability ...    Don't confuse education with intellect and don't try to speak down to people. A basic error. I know many experts. They know a lot about a little. I don't know you so don't know if you claim to be an expert in anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said: You might find this interesting. Â Â Sorry but I prefer my science not to be dumbed down as though I am 12 years old. Just a personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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