No fans control and club loses revenue with CIC

[Stu]

The "money spinning bar" is not designed to be the sole means of repaying the debt! The debt would be repaid over 10 years through the 4 different types of membership subscriptions and through increased use of facilities at St Mirren Park throughout the week. If the club facilities begin to get used more often for conferences, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, Christmas parties / works Christmas nights out etc then the "money spinning bar" would be open for most of those functions and the CIC team seem confident that they can attract at least 50 such functions a year where the bar would be used and where individuals and companies and community organisations would be hiring hall space at the ground, or even hiring the car park to hold car boot sales, jumble sales etc. This weekend the boat jumble sale are paying over £1k to use he empty club car park for a day... if we got that type of booking once a month for the next ten years at only £1k a time then that repays one tenth of the debt before anyone has bought a drink in the new bar or paid to have a birthday party in the corporate suite.

How do St Mirren FC begin making money from the CIC venture? If the CIC are successful in attracting businesses to the ground to use facilities for conferences, or if community groups are around the ground for birthday parties etc there is a decent chance that some of businesses and visitors may think about attending a game or booking corporate matchday packages etc if their initial contact via the CIC is positive. Lets say RA meets the target of the CIC hosting one function (wedding, birthday party, conference) etc a week on top of having community groups like local churches using the facilities every week and over the course of a year around 5000 people visit St Mirren Park on CIC business, is there not a decent chance that a 250-500 of those visitors might decide to come to a game or buy a corporate package or sponsor St Mirren in some way?

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought the way the club would be making money would be by the fee paid for groups using the facilities - not that people going to these events who would then go to the football. The CIC cash from such events would be from bar sales or if they held an event and charged an entry fee.

[St. Sid]

Pretty well summarised Stuart. Following a pledge of another kind (to try and keep out of Sid's way), I didn't go into much detail. Some other posters subsequently asked questions about some of the areas of concern, and they were answered well by the TTH folks on the Q&A.

My only remaining grumble was about why/how the deal would be pushed through with "the backing of the fans"....yet the target represented about 10% of those who went to games these days. Hardly a working mandate, but I was satisfied by the talk and action of the TTH people that my final concerns were answered. (My thread on this issue was derided as "Pompous & self-important" by Sid....but thankfully the TTH people saw what I was trying to raise as an issue, and answered it well. 'nuff said)

All about perspectives Big Fras. From my perspective I saw someone that I actually quite like as a result of his excellent work on the Aber project and other bits and bobs he had done for the SUPPORTERS heading down a route that could potentially see him wreck a good reputation. Thankfully you have seen the light and come back from the dark side of OFesque crusading.

I think the intitial launch of this was always going to deliver contention with some extreme reactions appearing on the web, whether it being from the pious, pompous and self-interested brigade or from the usual flamers serial alais brigade. As always the truth lies in the middle and I think we have managed to navigate through to a general concensus that the new injection of ideas and cash into the club is worth exploring.

That being said I beleive it is now time to move on from the is it a good idea / bad idea histrionics to ensuring that the wider support is represented in exploring the finer detail of the CIC proposals. At the last public meeting there was an open invitation for volunteers from the support to join the CIC exec board. There was a slight undersell of that opportunity in that the meetings are rare. However, having supporter representation at that level at this stage could help bring the remaining doubters into the fold as well as validating what we now believe to be the offer on the table.

Yes, some supporters have had their one-to-ones and SMiSA chaps have been involved from the earlier stages. However, getting someone seconded onto the CIC exec board at this point in time would seem to be a positive for all concerned in my humble opinion.

There was also chat at the meeting about the numbers of supporter representatives on the CIC Members BoD. I think we should push to have a larger supporter representation on the board than the corporate / community members. Let's face it, whilst some of the corprorate and CIC members we have been introduced to are St Mirren supporters there are no guarantees that will be the case moving forward. With over 24 community members from orgs not necessarily all from Paisley or even Renfrewshire we could run a risk of non-St Mirren fans having a significant say in the running of the club. We should now be identifying concerns and negotiating on them rather than briefing against the entire idea. There are still issues to be dealt with and we should be engaging as a unit now in some shape form or fashion - structured, not as Internet aliases.

[Guest somner9]

See that's your problem.

There's plenty of debate,but if you don't like what you see you ignore it and prefer, it would appear to "listen to the sound of your own voice".

Keep it up though, it only does the opposite of what your trying to achieve.

debate is both fascinating and exhilirating. however when a post is preceeded or precluded with an insult or slight why should i or anyone for that matter even bother to give it oxygen?

like your post quoted here, instead of debating and saying your concerns are wrong because........ despite not knowing me you feel it appropriate to fire of an insult, whn i have never and wouldnt think it right to do the same to you.

debate! yes, namecalling? leave it out

[Guest somner9]

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought the way the club would be making money would be by the fee paid for groups using the facilities - not that people going to these events who would then go to the football. The CIC cash from such events would be from bar sales or if they held an event and charged an entry fee.

my point was if we should succumb next season to the drop, will their be the same level of interest and drive for all the activities, club and CiC. and there should be a plan set out that addresess if we stay up or go down.

[TsuMirren]

my point was if we should succumb next season to the drop, will their be the same level of interest and drive for all the activities, club and CiC. and there should be a plan set out that addresess if we stay up or go down.

It's in the business plan, admittedly it'll also be up to whomever is in the elected board and club board to also give it some thought. No point just coasting along enjoying what you do have, just as there's no point creating problems.

[St. Sid]

my point was if we should succumb next season to the drop, will their be the same level of interest and drive for all the activities, club and CiC. and there should be a plan set out that addresess if we stay up or go down.

jobbybreath

There is already a business plan in place for the relegation scenario. That is the business of the SMFC board at present. Two of the CIC chaps are of course part of that process as they are on the BoD. There are two points to that - they are on the BoD, they told us about it at the meeting....so firstly why are you not on the board with all this inciteful wisdom and secondly why didn;t you hear those points being made at the meeting you claim to have been at and yet said f"k aw.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

appreciate your response, gives a bit of heart that at least some st mirren fans can debate the very existence of the club without the "wee boy" namecalling tactics you can read on this thread. lets let them listen to the sound of their own voice.

on subject: i get theres a time frame to repay the debt, and a hope to generate new business other than the bar, however my biggest concern is if at the end of next season there isn't one team more crap than we've been then we go down, and so will gate receipts, attendances, STH, advertising, hospitaltlity, sponsorship, playing squad, backroom team, club employees, TV money and general interest in SMFC etc, (except for us)

in that (lets be honest) very likely scenario how will the CiC maintain its debt repayment schedule?

because the debt is the only thing that won't drop should we be relegated, say as seems certain a healthy amount sign up to pay their £120 pa, we get relegated and a percentage of the membership drop out (for whatever reason) or don't renew their membershi,p then the remaining members will be in a very difficult position, they will potentially be making decisions about redundancies (peoples livelyhoods) and also decisions about how to keep the debt payments on track with a smaller membership and revenue stream.

will you get the same corporate members weighing in £10k when we're off to Kirkcaldy, Dumfries and Dingwall?

the community members i would suggest will be in it for the long haul, but given that the club (SMFC) will still be generating money do you think that they would vote to increase their subs when the debt payments fall off?

or perhaps agree to a motion that the CiC (52% majority shareholding) suggest to plug the potential shortfall in debt repayment?

in that scenario do you think that all the individual members would vote to UP their payments to £240, £500pa????

thats one of my biggest concerns, there is next to no detail available that actually pinpoints the turnover that will be generated by each revenue stream based on a benchmark of the current market place. the figures for new revenue to be generated are as far as i can see are based on

"We Could"!

that is "We Could get 52 weddings a year, We Could get a couple of hundred pensioners in a week, we could sell more beer than any pub in paisley on match days (around 29 pa) we could......" its aspirational, not factual.

an example would be that the current BoD or caterer can make a very good prediction how many pies are needed for the Hamilton game based on STH, online ticket sales and special interest. when we look at what 10000 hours have suggested its not as far as we can see based on any market research. its a laudable hope, bit theres beggar all science behind it.

now if you sign your direct debit and at the start of season 2013-13 it is apparent that there was little chance of ever generating the required revunue to service the debt if we dropped down a division, how would you then view the information that was available to you when you had to make your decision to sign up?

it is an irresistible opportunity for the ordinary fan to have (lets be honest here too given the three board set up) "a bit of a say" in how the club is run.

my other main concern, which again has only been quietly mentioned is "What will this proposal do to improve/maintain/support DL and his team in producing a good product on the park?" i know it ruffles 10000 hours feathers whenever i bring this up but isn't that the bottom line for the overwhelming majority of Saints fans?

so far all that has been "Suggested" is that if the bar and other (as yet to be identified, set up, marketed etc) ideas operate at full capacity then it "Might" generate the funds to increase the playing budget by UP to 20%.

so if it was actually 20% made available to DL close season, I would be the first in line stuffing my DD down the pants of RA as he gyrated around the lap dancing pole. but its not next season, and perhaps not even for the start of 2012-13. in fact it is purely based on the groundless (We Could make) figures so far made available.

as an example if company "A" was considering opening a new local convience store in paisley in the near future. speaking from a position of knowledge on at least that subject, if the director of store ops ran into the project meeting and said "We Could make" £xxxxxx per week if we were as busy as we could be. then even the tea person would prick their ears up and wait for the details of the market research, the store type, the product range, the competition and how we can win their customers over etc etc....

now can anyone say they've had that kind of detail to help them decide if the financial side of this proposal stacks up?

has anyone seen or been given a figure of what 10000 hours expect to turnover from Week 1 thru to 52?

if not how will the bar etc ever know if its on target, at break even, exceeding target or operating at a loss? i can tell you all the ones without that type of basic business and opertions plan make a loss. i've been involved with the aspirational projects, the ones that your told are "Just the right thing to do" because it's agreat opportunity, and it'll involve so many. and i can tell you very very rarely do they make profit. so how will our club fare if theres no one as bad as Hamilton next season?

Relegation is more likely to pose a financial problem for the St Mirren FC BoD than it will for the CIC board. Sounds like the CIC are looking like their corporate, community groups and individual memberships will have enough members signed up to repay the loans over he agreed timespan.

Why does it follow that we will be in another relegation fight next season or be the favourite to go down? Are dunfermline looking a lot stronger than us? It sounded like St Mirren's squad budget for next season will stay at a similar level to this season's budget while a lot of other clubs are looking to implement big cuts in their squad budget for next season (eg Dundee United, Hibs, Motherwell...) and the likes of Kilmarnock will be missing the players and manager who got hem off to a flier this season and a club like Aberdeen will be trying to rebuild their squad and St Johnstone have been on a bad run in 2011.

Where relegation would have a big impact would be the player budget for seasons following relegation... budget would be set by the St Mirren board (including CIC members) and other board members.

At the public meeting last Thursday, Jim Mullen said that KibbleWorks had taken a punt a few months ago on the CIC takeover becoming a reality and had one of their own staff researching how much use St Mirren Park might get as a venue for conferences and for wedding bookings, birthday parties etc and whether kitting out The Void area would pay for itself and make a profit etc and there has already been a good number of bookings using the corporate suite area for the last few months and Kibble seem to be using St Mirren Park as their new venue for conferences and already have other regular bookings in place with the money going to St Mirren FC at the moment before the CIC gets started. I think they used a phrase like they were operating as if the CIC had already happened and the bookings and money was already coming in and helping the club. On that basis it is not fair to say the CIC have no idea whether the facilities and bar would get used much or make much money, even though the CIC hasn't officially started they already have bookings coming in and I guess that's why they are happy to give a figure in the presentation saying that the increased revenue from hiring out facilities at St Mirren Park should see a 7% increase in the squad budget by the end of year 1.

RA also seems a fairly cautious character in terms of business - everything has to be transparent and above board, and he said the Maxi Group have operated without any debt since the 1980s... the CIC also seem well on the way to meeting their conservative target figures for the different types of memberships being taken up... even though many predicted the CIC would never get the backing from the fans or businesses in Paisley to get off the ground.

[FTOF]

debate is both fascinating and exhilirating. however when a post is preceeded or precluded with an insult or slight why should i or anyone for that matter even bother to give it oxygen?

like your post quoted here, instead of debating and saying your concerns are wrong because........ despite not knowing me you feel it appropriate to fire of an insult, whn i have never and wouldnt think it right to do the same to you.

debate! yes, namecalling? leave it out

Feel free to point out the insult or namecalling in my quote that you have referred to .

Your desperation increases with every post you make.

As others have mentioned, relegation is a "red herring".It doesn't matter who or what is in charge of the club, revenue will drop.With the CiC in place and a stronger commercial set up in place, then IMO we'll be better prepared for this eventuality.

Edited May 2, 2011 by FTOF

[reborn saint]

Feel free to point out the insult or namecalling in my quote that you have referred to .

Your desperation increases with every post you make.

As others have mentioned, relegation is a "red herring".It doesn't matter who or what is in charge of the club, revenue will drop.With the CiC in place and a stronger commercial set up in place, then IMO we'll be better prepared for this eventuality.

no we don't