Managers Who Sit In Dugouts V Managers Who Stand At Touch Line

[Bud the Baker]

What a load of shite.

He's shown initiative and drive and whilst that may not have landed him a job in the community centre it's moved him ahead of countless others and now he's working. He got the result he desired. He should be proud of himself - of course he should. He refused to be battered down by the welfare state and he's now working and earning a wage.

It's a fine line - we could all give good & bad examples either through personal or second-hand experience. What should we do leave it to chance and the ethics of employers or hire a battalion of civil servants to monitor every charity/company that uses voluntary workers?

[stlucifer]

I've left the sensible part of your post in. And even that is dubious since it contains your name.

[Bud the Baker]

So, was this a concerted effort to get this thread off topic? Or am I creating another misplaced conspiracy theory?

As I've said before & elsewhere it's the digressions that make the most entertaining reading.

[oaksoft]

My boss doesn't just tell me what to do and leave me till I finish - he's there to keep tabs, give guidance, tell me if I need to be more efficient, quicker, better.

Oh my god I just read this today after Drew quoted you.

Are you seriously suggesting you need this sort of guidance and supervision on a DAILY basis from your boss?

I'd be embarassed at having to be treated like this.

[stlucifer]

Some on here use a well-known tactic of resorting to personal abuse when they know they've been shown up. Congratulations - you've just joined the "in gang".

Hardly personal abuse. Even for such a sensitive soul.

It was you who decided to empart on the world the fact you were openly using yourself as a tool to potentially, effectively fcuk peoples chances of paid work.

Then again. Maybe you are correct.

After all. A prostitute actually gets paid for doing the dirty deed.

Edited November 1, 2013 by stlucifer

[oaksoft]

In other words because I've proved you wrong, not for the first time I have to say, all you can provide is cheap pot shots and abuse...typical "yes man"...

And you know what, even when I've been a dick on this thread with my facts people are still having a go at you.

Is that telling you something?

[Isabella Duke]

Looks like I've misunderstood.

Yet again.

[oaksoft]

Yet again. :

I won a tenner. I bet you'd have something to say about it before tea time.

Thanks bud. That bought me a pizza and in 4 minutes it'll be delicious and half eaten.

Edited November 1, 2013 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

It's a fine line - we could all give good & bad examples either through personal or second-hand experience. What should we do leave it to chance and the ethics of employers or hire a battalion of civil servants to monitor every charity/company that uses voluntary workers?

Speak for yourself BtB - I can't give an bad example at all, either through personal or second hand experience. Think of it this way - it's like a footballer playing as a trialist in a pre season friendly. They know that the greedy bastards running the club aren't going to pay them to play. I'm not sure what the situation is now but a few years ago certainly trialists were playing matches uninsured because neither the football authorities or the football clubs would pay the premium for an unregistered player. Yet the player knows all this and will still play. Why? Cause he knows he'll enjoy the experience, it may well improve his match fitness, and he'll be hoping that by playing he will impress either the club he's playing for or someone else watching the game.

It's the same in the work situation. Even if an employer is taking advantage of the situation it's still positive for the intern. Why? Because they get back into the habit of working, they may learn a new skill or experience, and they'll be hoping that by working for free they will either catch the eye of their prospective employer or at the very least they'll hope their initiative and hard work might catch the eye of another potential employer who this time is recruiting.

[Bud the Baker]

Speak for yourself BtB - I can't give an bad example at all, either through personal or second hand experience. Think of it this way - it's like a footballer playing as a trialist in a pre season friendly. They know that the greedy bastards running the club aren't going to pay them to play. I'm not sure what the situation is now but a few years ago certainly trialists were playing matches uninsured because neither the football authorities or the football clubs would pay the premium for an unregistered player. Yet the player knows all this and will still play. Why? Cause he knows he'll enjoy the experience, it may well improve his match fitness, and he'll be hoping that by playing he will impress either the club he's playing for or someone else watching the game.

Yup just like us all you're making it up as you go along and frankly I find your opening sentence hard to believe.

It's the same in the work situation. Even if an employer is taking advantage of the situation it's still positive for the intern. Why? Because they get back into the habit of working, they may learn a new skill or experience, and they'll be hoping that by working for free they will either catch the eye of their prospective employer or at the very least they'll hope their initiative and hard work might catch the eye of another potential employer who this time is recruiting.

But not for the person who could be getting paid for doing the same work - perhaps the intern himself.

[stlucifer]

I never ruined people's chances of paid work. The place I did my voluntary work in already had its maximum number of employees that funding was originally granted for. All I did was go along and do some bits and pieces three mornings a week and took my turn of covering two different reception areas so that people could get their 15 minute morning break for tea, coffee or a cigarette or a combination of both. I wasn't doing anywhere near as much work as the actual employees of the centre I was volunteering in and if I was unable to make it in (which only happened once) the management fully understood. They were also grateful for anything I could suggest to them.

The people who moaned that there was less work for them to do when I was in three mornings a week were probably at it. I bet once I left because I got a proper job they were back to moaning about having too much to do. They made a fuss because I came in and I was prepared to do something off my own back and prove to people that I was worth something to the Community and I was more than capable of being an asset to another firm or organisation. Perhaps they also recognised that I was actually better at doing their job than they ever could be and couldn't handle it.

All you are doing is banging on about me stopping someone from getting a job - I clearly wasn't! Maybe you should learn to read posts that reply to yours instead of just getting all hot under the collar and worried about getting a showing up.

So. Reading between the lines.

You Turned up,... when you felt like it. Proved yourself useful, in your eyes, ... when you wanted to. Did little when there. Thought that, even though you were just in the door, you could tell them how to do their job better. Talked down the people who actually got paid to do the work. A perfect excercise for the real thing,...eh?

I fail to see why the "real" workers felt the way they did about you.

By the way. As for the highlighted sentence. Never has the old adage, "Self praise is no honour", been so apt.

[oaksoft]

Yup just like us all you're making it up as you go along and frankly I find your opening sentence hard to believe.

But not for the person who could be getting paid for doing the same work - perhaps the intern himself.

There are two sides to this.

Working for free is an excellent way to gain skills and I've done this myself. Two summers of free work allowed me the experience to gain a 1 year paid contract and then the aggregate of all of that allowed me to get a full time position. Nobody will convince me I shouldn't have done that and frankly I don't care what anyone thinks about it - it's me who has to support my family.

However.

There clearly is scope for abuse with employers hiring interns instead of paid workers.

However.

Why would an employer do that?

A smart employer will retain the services of BOTH people and double productivity.

When young people want to be a doctor or a scientist they spend 9 years learning their craft unpaid.

What is wrong with mechanics and welders etc going through a shorter but similarly unpaid process to learn their craft?

Companies are not charities but they do control wages and people's way of life.

Maybe we're just too comfy in our wee western world.

Maybe it's right that for a wage which covers basic expenses youngsters should be getting onto apprenticeships as a matter of course.

It doesn't matter as long as the company isn't replacing paid jobs with apprentices and presumably this could be legislated for.

[Bud the Baker]

There are two sides to this.

Working for free is an excellent way to gain skills and I've done this myself. Two summers of free work allowed me the experience to gain a 1 year paid contract and then the aggregate of all of that allowed me to get a full time position. Nobody will convince me I shouldn't have done that and frankly I don't care what anyone thinks about it - it's me who has to support my family.

However.

There clearly is scope for abuse with employers hiring interns instead of paid workers.

However.

Why would an employer do that?

A smart employer will retain the services of BOTH people and double productivity.

When young people want to be a doctor or a scientist they spend 9 years learning their craft unpaid.

What is wrong with mechanics and welders etc going through a shorter but similarly unpaid process to learn their craft?

Companies are not charities but they do control wages and people's way of life.

Maybe we're just too comfy in our wee western world.

Maybe it's right that for a wage which covers basic expenses youngsters should be getting onto apprenticeships as a matter of course.

It doesn't matter as long as the company isn't replacing paid jobs with apprentices and presumably this could be legislated for.

There are indeed two sides to the issue for most of us - with the neo-liberal Mr Dickson being one of the exceptions.

[oaksoft]

There are indeed two sides to the issue for most of us - with the neo-liberal Mr Dickson being one of the exceptions.

Most of us can be annoying twats sometimes. We can all make mistakes and look stupid.

The worst thing in the world is to be a Dickson, a Duke or a Lex about it.

[Stuart Dickson]

 

There are indeed two sides to the issue for most of us - with the neo-liberal Mr Dickson being one of the exceptions.

Of course there's two sides. On one side there is the employer generously giving the intern a chance to learn some skills, and in the other there's the intern learning some skills and looking to impress. There is no downside.

Like Oaksoft alluded to I was an apprentice for just over 3 and a half years. I was paid but as a first and second year I earned less than £1 per hour. I learned my trade, became time served and it's helped me on route to where I am today.

I'd bring back the old YTS scheme.

[stlucifer]

Of course there's two sides. On one side there is the employer generously giving the intern a chance to learn some skills, and in the other there's the intern learning some skills and looking to impress. There is no downside.

Like Oaksoft alluded to I was an apprentice for just over 3 and a half years. I was paid but as a first and second year I earned less than £1 per hour. I learned my trade, became time served and it's helped me on route to where I am today.

I'd bring back the old YTS scheme.

There is a BIG difference between paying someone a lesser amount because they are learning for their and the employers benefit and are not as productive and NOT paying someone who is expected to be productive to prove that they are willing to work.

The problem with YTS is that it could be abused by unscrupulous employers to circumnavigate the minimum wage rule.

An apprenticeship is an educational tool and should always be, as far as I'm concerned, indentured.

[Bud the Baker]

Of course there's two sides. On one side there is the employer generously giving the intern a chance to learn some skills, and in the other there's the intern learning some skills and looking to impress. There is no downside.

Like Oaksoft alluded to I was an apprentice for just over 3 and a half years. I was paid but as a first and second year I earned less than £1 per hour. I learned my trade, became time served and it's helped me on route to where I am today.

I'd bring back the old YTS scheme.

Squabbling on an internet forum!

[BAWZ]

I wonder what colour of city slickers Ali McGraw wore in Love Story? Anyone care to speculate?

just trying to see if I can get this thread off on a completey different topic from the current boring digression