Better Together - No You Can't Join The Eu - Eu Yes You Can Join

[salmonbuddie]

You're probably right but it's certainly the impression they've been trying to get across. They were all over Juncker's "no new members for 5 years" and how massive a blow it was to the SNP's plans.

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/juncker-ends-salmonds-european-dream

Pity Juncker's office had to spoil it for them the next day by saying that it didn't apply to Scotland.

Not true.

And the impression they've given, ably supported by the MSM, is that Scotland won't be allowed into the EU.

More deflection whilst you ignore the point I made. Good for you.

You're right, BT have played a blinder. They have given the impression that Scotland will find it difficult if not impossible to get entry into the EU without actually saying so. The fine art of misrepresentation.

Edited July 23, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[Vambo57]

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

[faraway saint]

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

Sounds like Armageddon?

We all know how that went.

[RickMcD]

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

Classic semantic claptrap.

[Stuart Dickson]

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

This is pish.

Look Vambo do you - since you quoted it - or the writer, know for certain that an Independent Scotland could afford to deliver all of those things? How would we fund a more generous welfare state? How would we fund paying pensioners more? Or putting more money into healthcare or education? How would we change taxation to stop the widening of wealth inequality? And how would that sit with Alex Salmonds promises to the likes of Amazon who currently receive large Scottish Government grants despite not paying Corporation Tax in the UK? If we lose interest in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons, what plans does an Independent Scotland have to ensure all of those made redundant find new employment at similar rates of pay? And what happens to the ship building industry that has been utterly reliant on UK Government orders to keep our yards open?

Sleepwalking into this referendum dreaming that somehow a Scotland on it's own will resolve every single one of those issues whilst protecting our current living standards, without demanding proof from the Yes Campaign seems like an utter folly to me. Even more so since if we vote Yes it will be irreversible.

[Chris]

This is pish.

Look Vambo do you - since you quoted it - or the writer, know for certain that an Independent Scotland could afford to deliver all of those things? How would we fund a more generous welfare state? How would we fund paying pensioners more? Or putting more money into healthcare or education? How would we change taxation to stop the widening of wealth inequality? And how would that sit with Alex Salmonds promises to the likes of Amazon who currently receive large Scottish Government grants despite not paying Corporation Tax in the UK? If we lose interest in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons, what plans does an Independent Scotland have to ensure all of those made redundant find new employment at similar rates of pay? And what happens to the ship building industry that has been utterly reliant on UK Government orders to keep our yards open?

Sleepwalking into this referendum dreaming that somehow a Scotland on it's own will resolve every single one of those issues whilst protecting our current living standards, without demanding proof from the Yes Campaign seems like an utter folly to me. Even more so since if we vote Yes it will be irreversible.

Certainty is a concept which simply does not exist, either in a Yes note or in a No vote. It is utterly misleading to harp on about it. How can you demand proof of something that has not happened? There are plenty of projections out there, but that is all they ever can be.

The point is that the people of Scotland will have control over its future. I think it is fairly accepted across the board that Scotland (at the moment, and it has not always been the case) sends more to Westminster in the form of taxation than it receives from Westminster in the way of public spending. So in the short term it is not going to be an issue to fund that which we already have. If you also cut our share of the UK's defence spending and in particular the maintenance of nuclear weapons, you have a fairly large surplus overnight.

The challenge, of course, is that Scotland will need to grow its economy in new and existing sectors so that when the oil money does eventually run out, it is in a good position. I would much rather we tried to do so than simply sit and allow the oil money to be frittered away by Westminster as it has been for the last 30 years, and then look to Westminster for handouts (as Wales, Northern Ireland and the rest of England outside the south east currently do) to break even. Westminster is not going to invest time and money in growing Scotland's economy - that is not a criticism of Westminster per se, obviously it cannot have Scotland's best interests at heart. This is why it is time that we take responsibility and control.

[TopCat]

Still no evidence of Better Together claiming that "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU".

Where and when did better together say that?

[Stuart Dickson]

Certainty is a concept which simply does not exist, either in a Yes note or in a No vote. It is utterly misleading to harp on about it. How can you demand proof of something that has not happened? There are plenty of projections out there, but that is all they ever can be.

The point is that the people of Scotland will have control over its future. I think it is fairly accepted across the board that Scotland (at the moment, and it has not always been the case) sends more to Westminster in the form of taxation than it receives from Westminster in the way of public spending. So in the short term it is not going to be an issue to fund that which we already have. If you also cut our share of the UK's defence spending and in particular the maintenance of nuclear weapons, you have a fairly large surplus overnight.

The challenge, of course, is that Scotland will need to grow its economy in new and existing sectors so that when the oil money does eventually run out, it is in a good position. I would much rather we tried to do so than simply sit and allow the oil money to be frittered away by Westminster as it has been for the last 30 years, and then look to Westminster for handouts (as Wales, Northern Ireland and the rest of England outside the south east currently do) to break even. Westminster is not going to invest time and money in growing Scotland's economy - that is not a criticism of Westminster per se, obviously it cannot have Scotland's best interests at heart. This is why it is time that we take responsibility and control.

We don't even get projections from the Scottish Government, just assumption, presupposing, and sneering rhetoric. It's pretty sad really.

Chris, don't you think the Independence movement has shown a strange grasp of what responsibility and control is though? Take away the notion of a Scotland / England border, just for a moment, and you realise that we currently do have responsibility and control. We currently control our own currency. We can borrow from anywhere on the financial markets. We can set our own interest rates. In Europe we have responsibility and control where as well as being valued and powerful partners with a loud voice we also retain three different kinds of veto's which means that if the European Parliament tries to enforce their will on us we can tell them to f**k off. And within the current arrangement we enjoy full control of our NHS, education and law making amongst other areas.

Vote Yes in September and we accede control of our currency, our borrowing, and our interest rates to the Rest of the UK. We lose our European veto meaning we lose control of our law making powers and we'll be forced to offer free places at Scottish Universities to all English, Welsh and Northern Irish students who wish to study here.

Democracy isn't about getting your way all the time, it's about accepting the will of the majority. After Independence do you think that people in Aberdeen, Inverness, Dumfries and Dundee will feel they are adequately represented by the Parliament where the majority is made up by Central Scotland MSP's, or do you think they might want to "take responsibility and control"?

[Reynard]

Where and when did better together say that?

They never have. Nobody has ever said this. What they HAVE said is that it would be a negotiated accession just like every other country that wants to join. The EU themselves have been very clear about that. The SNP leadership have actually altered their position on this in the past 18 months or so since Salmonds incredibly stupid "in terms of the debate" blunder where he attempted to lie about legal advice he never received.

Scotland will eventually join the EU of that I'm pretty sure, but the process will be exactly the same as any other country joining. Which will also mean the negatiated terms being put to the Scottish people in a referendum. Something Salmond is shitting himself about as he knows we will lose a lot of the opt outs the UK has managed to negotiate prior to Lisbon. The Lisbon treaty completely changed the entire process of joining and negotiated opt outs are no longer available in certain areas such as VAT on food and certain other zero rated thing, the Euro etc.

To join the EU we also need to have our own central bank, something which we dont yet have. We have to have our deficit down below a certain,level (3%)from memory, something which will take a bit of doing as it currently stands at over 8% (the biggest in the EU)

We shall see, but its just another area where the SNP have been incredibly poor and another area where they have had to rely on assertion to try and get them across the line. Poor.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Do all 28 current EU states have their own central bank Reynard?

[salmonbuddie]

Scotland will eventually join the EU of that I'm pretty sure, but the process will be exactly the same as any other country joining.

Bollocks it will.

[civilsaint]

More deflection whilst you ignore the point I made. Good for you.

You're right, BT have played a blinder. They have given the impression that Scotland will find it difficult if not impossible to get entry into the EU without actually saying so. The fine art of misrepresentation.

I've not ignored what you said. Thankfully you, at least, recognise that the initial post was factually incorrect and that Tony was subsequently incorrect. Better Together have never said "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU". As for the "impression" they give, that is ridiculous. Better Together's position is entirely clear and supported by considerable legal and constitutional and academic opinion with the UK and the EU. Their position is supported by the current President of the European Commission, the President Elect of the European Commission and the current president of the European Council to name a few.

Whilst nothing is certain, to call Better Together's position a misrepresentation you'd have to be pretty desperate. There position is entirely reasonable and logical.

Still, those who have made false allegations as to what Better Together have said, haven't had the balls to accept their error. Maybe you should stick your "misrepresentation" label on them.

[salmonbuddie]

It's neither desperate nor ridiculous and if you can't see that then you're incredibly naive.

There is considerable legal and constitutional advice supporting both sides of the argument. What that tells me is that the settlement will be neither and will, instead, be political. Politically, it makes sense to get Scotland into the EU as smoothly as possible. That's what will happen when we vote Yes.

[civilsaint]

It's neither desperate nor ridiculous and if you can't see that then you're incredibly naive.

There is considerable legal and constitutional advice supporting both sides of the argument. What that tells me is that the settlement will be neither and will, instead, be political. Politically, it makes sense to get Scotland into the EU as smoothly as possible. That's what will happen when we vote Yes.

On the other hand, Scotland joining the EU creates a precedent for separatists. It makes sense for member states to get it right over getting it done quickly, otherwise there could be a whole stream of separatists trying to break the EU into lots of tiny territories. Every single nation has a veto, it only takes one nation to be unhappy with what's on the table to delay things. Of course it will be a political decision. Better Together have said that all along. Politics isn't simple and that's part of the problem.

Your misrepresentation claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm certainly not naive on the subject. The very fact that you expect there to be political negotiations gives credence to Better Together's position that there are significant risks involved in voting for independence in regard to joining the EU. It is the SNP that fails to recognise any risk.

Edited July 27, 2014 by civilsaint

[TopCat]

With such confusion and uncertainty surrounding this and other major issues, it's no wonder the Scottish people are voting no.

[salmonbuddie]

On the other hand, Scotland joining the EU creates a precedent for separatists. It makes sense for member states to get it right over getting it done quickly, otherwise there could be a whole stream of separatists trying to break the EU into lots of tiny territories. Every single nation has a veto, it only takes one nation to be unhappy with what's on the table to delay things. Of course it will be a political decision. Better Together have said that all along. Politics isn't simple and that's part of the problem.

Your misrepresentation claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm certainly not naive on the subject. The very fact that you expect there to be political negotiations gives credence to Better Together's position that there are significant risks involved in voting for independence in regard to joining the EU. It is the SNP that fails to recognise any risk.

The difference being that Scotland is already a nation in its own right, that's what makes us a special case and completely different from other independence seeking "territory."

What was left of BT's credence in this subject was lost when they jumped on Juncker's comments and misrepresented what he meant.

[glenburn ed]

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

This is the starkest statement I've read on the Independence debate...

“For anyone planning to vote No in September, you have to be completely certain, beyond any doubt, that you are comfortable with the direction the UK is headed. You have to accept that the wider UK political landscape is being shaped by the far right, and that the mainstream parties (ostensibly the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats) are being inexorably pulled ever rightwards in the scramble for votes. You have to be comfortable with the marginalisation and victimisation of the poor, with the dismantling of the Welfare State, the widening of wealth inequality between rich and poor, and the continuing erosion of workers rights. You have to accept that nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers are more important to you than education, healthcare and welfare for the elderly and vulnerable in society. You have to accept that, even if you do care about these things, your vote at Westminster will make no difference to the outcome. If you accept all these things unquestioningly; if you can reconcile your personal politics with what awaits a No vote; if you can consider all of these issues and conclude that a Westminster government can deliver the kind of society you believe in; then by all means vote No. But if you sleepwalk into this referendum, without making any effort to consider the case for Yes; if you squander this incredible opportunity to transform our politics, reclaim democracy, and build a society we can once again be proud of; then I can only hope that, when the full calamity of your decision is revealed to you, you can come to terms with your choice.”

what absolute garbage

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

what absolute garbage

What's garbage about it ?

Would say it is an accurate snapshot.

Poverty in Scotland has grown to 29% are you telling me that's acceptable ?

We are trillions £ in debt - To pay this debt back under a Tory government means cuts back of the highest order.

Please a search into the cost of the new nuclear deterrent and the aircraft carriers. Even generals today say we don't need these carriers. Have a look at the cost. Then search the cost of a new hospital - a school.

Illegal wars ? Want nothing to do with them what a waste of our young men's life's. Then they come home to be dumped in the scrap heap.

Labour is more right wing than it has ever been. It's an extremely rich Jewish family who son wants to become the next Labour leader to lead the country who was also privately educated. Tory party I'm sure you know all about. Lib Dems not even worth a mention.

For me it's crystal clear in which direction I would love to see Scotland take.

[glenburn ed]

What's garbage about it ?Would say it is an accurate snapshot.Poverty in Scotland has grown to 29% are you telling me that's acceptable ?We are trillions £ in debt - To pay this debt back under a Tory government means cuts back of the highest order.Please a search into the cost of the new nuclear deterrent and the aircraft carriers. Even generals today say we don't need these carriers. Have a look at the cost. Then search the cost of a new hospital - a school.Illegal wars ? Want nothing to do with them what a waste of our young men's life's. Then they come home to be dumped in the scrap heap.Labour is more right wing than it has ever been. It's an extremely rich Jewish family who son wants to become the next Labour leader to lead the country who was also privately educated. Tory party I'm sure you know all about. Lib Dems not even worth a mention.For me it's crystal clear in which direction I would love to see Scotland take.

Is this the "new" Scotland that you want so much, what has anybody's religion got to do with anything. Your actually saying that "Scots"people won't make bad decisions. Typical NAT it's everybody else to blame.

[civilsaint]

The difference being that Scotland is already a nation in its own right, that's what makes us a special case and completely different from other independence seeking "territory."

You are showing your ignorance on the matter now. As far as the EU are concerned Scotland is not "a nation in its own right". The EU has 28 nations, Scotland is not one of them. As far as the EU are concerned Scottish separatists are exactly the same as other separatists. You might not like that and it might not suit your position, but it is the reality.

What was left of BT's credence in this subject was lost when they jumped on Juncker's comments and misrepresented what he meant.

Interesting that omit Yes Scotland's jumping on Juncker's comments and misrepresenting his position in their comparison to Barossso only for Juncker to come out the following day and support Barosso's analysis. Both camps got their fingers burned that week but you focus on one whilst ignoring the other. It doesn't help your argument.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

28 member states. Scotland is a nation, part of one of the member states, the uk.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Is this the "new" Scotland that you want so much, what has anybody's religion got to do with anything. Your actually saying that "Scots"people won't make bad decisions. Typical NAT it's everybody else to blame.

Is this the "new" Scotland that you want so much, what has anybody's religion got to do with anything. Your actually saying that "Scots"people won't make bad decisions. Typical NAT it's everybody else to blame.

In short I don't like the way Westminster ( is ) - ( going ) to run the country. Lets be honest its another Tory party that will be voted in 2015.

If you are comfortable with 29% poverty in Scotland alone. The illegal wars and nuclear base in your neighbour hood fine vote NO.

Me I'm going to trust us to govern ourselves looking after our own interests for local people.

Of course religion has nothing to do with anything the same with colour. But make no mistake the labour leader comes from a private education and privileged back ground.

[civilsaint]

28 member states. Scotland is a nation, part of one of the member states, the uk.

Show me evidence of Scotland being considered a "Nation" by the EU. The term "nation" is meaningless anyway in the EU context as you rightly point out. What matters is that Scotland is not a member state and never has been. Just as Catalonia never has been a member state, or Bavaria.

Whilst you're at it have you still not been able to find the quotes where Better Together claim that Scotland wouldn't get into the EU? Will you accept your error?

Edited July 27, 2014 by civilsaint

[salmonbuddie]

You are showing your ignorance on the matter now. As far as the EU are concerned Scotland is not "a nation in its own right". The EU has 28 nations, Scotland is not one of them. As far as the EU are concerned Scottish separatists are exactly the same as other separatists. You might not like that and it might not suit your position, but it is the reality.

No, we're seen as a completely different case to "separatists" which is why Juncker's office issued the clarification with regard to Scotland. You might not like that and it might not suit your position, but it is the reality.

[civilsaint]

No, we're seen as a completely different case to "separatists" which is why Juncker's office issued the clarification with regard to Scotland. You might not like that and it might not suit your position, but it is the reality.

Junker's position is entirely clear. He has agreed with the President of the European Commission and the President of the European Council, who when asked specifically about Scotland said:

"A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, would become a third country with respect to the EU".

"A new state, if it wants to join the European Union,has to apply to become a member of the EU, like any state."

Juncker also added, "One does not become a member of the EU by sending a letter".

Edited July 27, 2014 by civilsaint