Better Together

[oaksoft]

I believe in Scotland's case , it is pointless to leave one Union whilst remaining in another . "Independence in Europe" would be bloody daft , it would only make it easy for der Reich to bully us . .make no mistake , they can be far more suppressive than Westminster has been , just have a look at Europe . .

If being ruled by England and being part of the EU were exactly the same thing then you'd have a point.

1) We don't hand all our income to Europe and then have to survive on what they consider to be a reasonable handout.

2) Europe can't force us to build nuclear weapons when we have people using food banks.

3) Europe can't force us to go into Iraq or Afghanistan to stroke the ego of one deluded idiot who thinks he can wipe out thousands of years of war overnight (Blair).

The list goes on.

Europe and Westminster are not remotely close to being the same.

Greece are in trouble because they over borrowed and had to go to Germany for help.

That is not our situation so to compare them is wrong.

[bluto]

If being ruled by England and being part of the EU were exactly the same thing then you'd have a point.

1) We don't hand all our income to Europe and then have to survive on what they consider to be a reasonable handout.

2) Europe can't force us to build nuclear weapons when we have people using food banks.

3) Europe can't force us to go into Iraq or Afghanistan to stroke the ego of one deluded idiot who thinks he can wipe out thousands of years of war overnight (Blair).

Being part of Europe or part of the UK (you got your opening sentence wrong, above...) are SIMILAR.

Parallels exist for all of these. You must also accept responsibilities for being in such unions, if you want to derive benefit from the fraternity and solidarity gained by being part of a bigger group.

However, I daresay if you loathe all those things and object to them, then I have no doubt that, once in, you can try to negotiate to create change and make things better.

And as Cameron asserts THAT is what he wants to do... does that make him an utter basturt just cos he's English?

Edited November 12, 2015 by bluto

[DougJamie]

I'm voting to get out. The day the EU allowed Greece and former eastern countries into the EU there was always going to be trouble on a financial sense corruption is rife in these countries while tax evasion in Greece by the filthy rich is accepted as normal

Had we a northern EU then that is a different matter I would have yes.

What a total bigot/ racist remark .

What your total narrowed minded imperialistic statement above is the exact reason no union works, why cause dicks like you reckon your simply better.

Here are some facts that you may want consider taking to your Klu Klux/Nazi/ Roman Empire meeting next week.

Eastern European countries lived under the real threat of Russia, that's the real threat, with no help from the mighty west, they were allowed to die and be exploited under vicious dictatorship of the communist regime.

They don't have oil, therefore people like you dint give a shit

As for Greece, well try looking at the mighty UK for tax evasion, Gary f**kin Barlow pleadinf for Children In Need when he keeps millions of tax thru evasion.

You pal. with your above political statement shows just why the world is phucked. You sure do live on a wee island don't u, goes with your mind

[bluto]

I'm voting to get out. The day the EU allowed Greece and former eastern countries into the EU there was always going to be trouble on a financial sense corruption is rife in these countries while tax evasion in Greece by the filthy rich is accepted as normal

Had we a northern EU then that is a different matter I would have yes.

What a total bigot/ racist remark .

What your total narrowed minded imperialistic statement above is the exact reason no union works, why cause dicks like you reckon your simply better.

Here are some facts that you may want consider taking to your Klu Klux/Nazi/ Roman Empire meeting next week.

Eastern European countries lived under the real threat of Russia, that's the real threat, with no help from the mighty west, they were allowed to die and be exploited under vicious dictatorship of the communist regime.

They don't have oil, therefore people like you dint give a shit

As for Greece, well try looking at the mighty UK for tax evasion, Gary f**kin Barlow pleadinf for Children In Need when he keeps millions of tax thru evasion.

You pal. with your above political statement shows just why the world is phucked. You sure do live on a wee island don't u, goes with your mind

Sadly dougjamie, I fear you may suffer from narrow-mindedness.

IoB Saint referred to no racial groups, but instead pointed accurately towards countries and governments that were (and are) unprepared to join that politcial union... which is also very much a financial union, for better or worse.

It's an open secret that Greeks (not a racial group) have been for years averse to paying taxes. It's no surprise that it's in the tragic state it now is, when it was expected to be a full partiipant of the euro community.

I think you've over-reacted with your post, buddie.

[Drew]

Sadly dougjamie, I fear you may suffer from narrow-mindedness.

IoB Saint referred to no racial groups, but instead pointed accurately towards countries and governments that were (and are) unprepared to join that politcial union... which is also very much a financial union, for better or worse.

It's an open secret that Greeks (not a racial group) have been for years averse to paying taxes. It's no surprise that it's in the tragic state it now is, when it was expected to be a full partiipant of the euro community.

I think you've over-reacted with your post, buddie.

Greeks have been averse to paying taxes?

Which Greeks? All Greeks?

When did this culture of tax aversion develop, and what triggered it?

You offer a staggeringly simplistic analysis of a complex situation, my dear friend.

[bluto]

Greeks have been averse to paying taxes?

Which Greeks? All Greeks?

When did this culture of tax aversion develop, and what triggered it?

You offer a staggeringly simplistic analysis of a complex situation, my dear friend.

I'm only repeating what I've picked up from my daily perusal of the FT.

I'd assumed it was common knowledge.

Honest.

But you can do your own research, tho here's a quick link in the FT that I found mentioning the problem:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e1b39e2-270a-11e5-9c4e-a775d2b173ca.html#axzz3rHwYfmKe

Here's another:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b47c6d76-a320-11e4-bbef-00144feab7de.html#axzz3rHwYfmKe

Edited November 12, 2015 by bluto

[Drew]

I'm only repeating what I've picked up from my daily perusal of the FT.

I'd assumed it was common knowledge.

Honest.

But you can do your own research, tho here's a quick link in the FT that I found mentioning the problem:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e1b39e2-270a-11e5-9c4e-a775d2b173ca.html#axzz3rHwYfmKe

Here's another:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b47c6d76-a320-11e4-bbef-00144feab7de.html#axzz3rHwYfmKe

Meanwhile, here's the reality.

The 2008 crisis in global capitalism (not caused by ordinary Greeks, as far as I am aware) crippled an already precarious economic base in Greece. In response to this, the then Greek government took billions in loans from the EU and the IMF. The lenders imposed arrangements (as they do) whereby public spending in Greece was slashed, and taxes were raised. This resulted in an increased cost of living and high unemployment.

Hardly a sustainable situation.

Wind the clock forward, and Greek teeters at the abyss. Huge pressure is brought to bear on the new government by the EU (ie: Germany) to accept another bail-out, this time with even more crippling conditions. Sell your public assets, they were told. Sell them to private concerns - many of which, coincidentally enough, are German-based private companies.

If you haven't already, I suggest that you read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine'. It was published about seven years ago, but could have been written about the Greek situation.

Aye, if it wasn't for those pesky Greek tax evaders.....

[bluto]

Meanwhile, here's the reality.

The 2008 crisis in global capitalism (not caused by ordinary Greeks, as far as I am aware) crippled an already precarious economic base in Greece. In response to this, the then Greek government took billions in loans from the EU and the IMF. The lenders imposed arrangements (as they do) whereby public spending in Greece was slashed, and taxes were raised. This resulted in an increased cost of living and high unemployment.

Hardly a sustainable situation.

Wind the clock forward, and Greek teeters at the abyss. Huge pressure is brought to bear on the new government by the EU (ie: Germany) to accept another bail-out, this time with even more crippling conditions. Sell your public assets, they were told. Sell them to private concerns - many of which, coincidentally enough, are German-based private companies.

If you haven't already, I suggest that you read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine'. It was published about seven years ago, but could have been written about the Greek situation.

Aye, if it wasn't for those pesky Greek tax evaders.....

Very nice, drew.... no sure what it brings to IoBS being accused of racism, nor to how I have pointed out that, if he IS racist, then the accusation is based on a widespread and general knowledge that Greeks have not been contributing taxes perhaps they should.

Your post doesn't negate my post. I won't follow your suggested sources of enlightenment as you have obviously blanked mine.

You ask when this non payment of taxes started?

I could speak of the Sixties when I learnt that NO Greeks paid to use the Athens subway. There were a million ways/reasons/excuses that ensured ANYBODY could use it for free.

I read widely, I've travelled there. I know a wee bit about the place. To again substantiate IoBS' perfectly rational/non racist pov, tax evasion and corruption was rife - it was aways going to find it hard to thrive within the EU financial constraints.

[Drew]

Very nice, drew.... no sure what it brings to IoBS being accused of racism, nor to how I have pointed out that, if he IS racist, then the accusation is based on a widespread and general knowledge that Greeks have not been contributing taxes perhaps they should.

Your post doesn't negate my post. I won't follow your suggested sources of enlightenment as you have obviously blanked mine.

You ask when this non payment of taxes started?

I could speak of the Sixties when I learnt that NO Greeks paid to use the Athens subway. There were a million ways/reasons/excuses that ensured ANYBODY could use it for free.

I read widely, I've travelled there. I know a wee bit about the place. To again substantiate IoBS' perfectly rational/non racist pov, tax evasion and corruption was rife - it was aways going to find it hard to thrive within the EU financial constraints.

Deep breaths, pal.... deep breaths.

I didn't enter the 'racist' debate. I was merely challenging your emphasis (and, by association, IoBS's) on Greeks not paying their taxes. Of course it has been an issue, but it has been used as a smokescreen for the more fundamental issues I highlight above. Greece has been made an example of, despite the fact that many of the difficulties they have faced in recent years are directly attributable to the conduct of the EU and international monetary institutions.

You might be widely read, but you cite two articles from one publication that is known to have a somewhat right leaning, free market subscribing, editorial slant. That's fine, but we can all reproduce what others have claimed elsewhere. When you come back and refute my personal interpretation of the situation, I'll happily read it.

[bluto]

Deep breaths, pal.... deep breaths.

I didn't enter the 'racist' debate. I was merely challenging your emphasis (and, by association, IoBS's) on Greeks not paying their taxes. Of course it has been an issue, but it has been used as a smokescreen for the more fundamental issues I highlight above. Greece has been made an example of, despite the fact that many of the difficulties they have faced in recent years are directly attributable to the conduct of the EU and international monetary institutions.

You might be widely read, but you cite two articles from one publication that is known to have a somewhat right leaning, free market subscribing, editorial slant. That's fine, but we can all reproduce what others have claimed elsewhere. When you come back and refute my personal interpretation of the situation, I'll happily read it.

Er... I won't refute it.

I wasn't commenting on here about your personal interpretation of the situation... as I mentioned in my last post.

I was solely interested in a wrongful condemnation of IoBS.

I'm glad you agree Greeks not paying their taxes has been an issue.

[Drew]

Er... I won't refute it.

I wasn't commenting on here about your personal interpretation of the situation... as I mentioned in my last post.

I was solely interested in a wrongful condemnation of IoBS.

I'm glad you agree Greeks not paying their taxes has been an issue.

An issue it might be, but it is hardly a situation that developed in a vacuum.

[oaksoft]

Being part of Europe or part of the UK (you got your opening sentence wrong, above...) are SIMILAR.

Parallels exist for all of these. You must also accept responsibilities for being in such unions, if you want to derive benefit from the fraternity and solidarity gained by being part of a bigger group.

However, I daresay if you loathe all those things and object to them, then I have no doubt that, once in, you can try to negotiate to create change and make things better.

And as Cameron asserts THAT is what he wants to do... does that make him an utter basturt just cos he's English?

when you hand over all your money to a union which is controlled by one member state and allow that majority member state to dictate the size of pocket money they will allow you to have, control what you can borrow and spend on then you are not PART of anything worthwhile. You are being controlled and dictated to. No amount of spin on your part will change that.

[saintnextlifetime]

Meanwhile, here's the reality.

The 2008 crisis in global capitalism (not caused by ordinary Greeks, as far as I am aware) crippled an already precarious economic base in Greece. In response to this, the then Greek government took billions in loans from the EU and the IMF. The lenders imposed arrangements (as they do) whereby public spending in Greece was slashed, and taxes were raised. This resulted in an increased cost of living and high unemployment.

Hardly a sustainable situation.

Wind the clock forward, and Greek teeters at the abyss. Huge pressure is brought to bear on the new government by the EU (ie: Germany) to accept another bail-out, this time with even more crippling conditions. Sell your public assets, they were told. Sell them to private concerns - many of which, coincidentally enough, are German-based private companies.

If you haven't already, I suggest that you read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine'. It was published about seven years ago, but could have been written about the Greek situation.

Aye, if it wasn't for those pesky Greek tax evaders.....

Maybe I could simplify it . .

Germany never forgot the crippling debt and reparations saddled on them after they called for an armistice in 1918 . Ever since then , they have been looking for another country to dramatise the situation with . Of course this time der 4th Reich get to collect the debt under the guise of der Bundesbank . .

[bluto]

when you hand over all your money to a union which is controlled by one member state and allow that majority member state to dictate the size of pocket money they will allow you to have, control what you can borrow and spend on then you are not PART of anything worthwhile. You are being controlled and dictated to. No amount of spin on your part will change that.

So you're unaware of any body in Scotland having ANY powers by which it can raise taxes within the borders and spend them as it wishes?

Edited. To cut to the chase.

Edited November 12, 2015 by bluto

[Stuart Dickson]

The main difference being, Norway's wealth was built around the oil revenue and they have invested this for the future. Our oil revenue was used to build Thatcher's Britain. The only thing we got out it was the poll tax.

Invested for the future you say?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/10/07/norway-risks-killing-its-own-economy/

We diversified. Norway has left itself totally dependent on oil. Norways unemployment rate has risen by 4.5% in recent years whilst in the UK unemployment keeps falling. Indeed Norways investment fund last year lost an incredible 273Bn NOK. How would we react if our government was holding massive amounts of our money, was investing it on our behalf, and had lost £4058 per person in its investment portfollio alone?

Natsi's need to stop extolling countries whose economies keep failing. First it was Iceland, just before they went bankrupt, then Ireland just before it became just another EU economic pariah, and now Norway.

[Stuart Dickson]

Maybe I could simplify it . .

Germany never forgot the crippling debt and reparations saddled on them after they called for an armistice in 1918 . Ever since then , they have been looking for another country to dramatise the situation with . Of course this time der 4th Reich get to collect the debt under the guise of der Bundesbank . .

So am I getting this right. The B&W Army Natsis official position is that Germany is bad and Europe is bad, yet you voted for a party that would have taken us out of the UK, surrendered all our European Vetoes, and whom would have begged the EU for a place at the table where they'd lap up whatever crumbs Angela Merkel would give us.

Did you even read the SNP manifesto or that comic that was their White Paper for that matter?

[oaksoft]

So you're unaware of any body in Scotland having ANY powers by which it can raise taxes within the borders and spend them as it wishes?

Edited. To cut to the chase.

Do we get to raise and control all of our own money or not bluto?

[Drew]

So am I getting this right. The B&W Army Natsis official position is that Germany is bad and Europe is bad, yet you voted for a party that would have taken us out of the UK, surrendered all our European Vetoes, and whom would have begged the EU for a place at the table where they'd lap up whatever crumbs Angela Merkel would give us.

Did you even read the SNP manifesto or that comic that was their White Paper for that matter?

Alternatively (bearing in mind I wouldn't want to speak for another forumster)....

He might have voted for a party dedicated to securing an independent Scotland on the basis that he could, if that independence were to be achieved, subsequently vote for a party that best represents his aspirations and hopes for Scotland. This, with some realistic chance of that vote meaning something.

Of course, there are also many ordinary SNP members who would favour withdrawal from the EU (and abolition of the monarchy, for that matter). I personally know a few such people. - not me, I would point out, as I am not a member. Presumably, they will seek to influence the policy direction of their party.

That, after all, is what politics is about, Stuart. You should look it up, sometime. Its fascinating stuff, honestly.

[bluto]

Do we get to raise and control all of our own money or not bluto?

Of course, you do.

In Utopia.

But not wholly in the UK nor in the EU. Nor in any other political, community, trade or business group on Earth.

However...

The current Scottish government HAS tax raising powers that it doesn't use... my allusion to that was what I amended in the above post.

When you chose to conjoin with others, you willingly cede some of your power, and accept that you cannot always be the beneficiary. Others are possibly/probably more deserving on occasion than you are.

So, the short, honest answer is NO.

BUT ONLY A NUMPTY WOULD BELIEVE OTHERWISE.

(I hope this helps? )

[oaksoft]

Of course, you do.

In Utopia.

But not wholly in the UK nor in the EU. Nor in any other political, community, trade or business group on Earth.

However...

The current Scottish government HAS tax raising powers that it doesn't use... my allusion to that was what I amended in the above post.

When you chose to conjoin with others, you willingly cede some of your power, and accept that you cannot always be the beneficiary. Others are possibly/probably more deserving on occasion than you are.

So, the short, honest answer is NO.

BUT ONLY A NUMPTY WOULD BELIEVE OTHERWISE.

(I hope this helps? )

You seem very sure of your facts so let's put some simple number on this then.

What proportion of Scotland's income is it mandatory to send to Westminster with tax rates as they are right now?

How does that compare to the percentage of UK income which it is mandated to send to the EU.

2 numbers. That's all I ask.

[bluto]

You seem very sure of your facts so let's put some simple number on this then.

What proportion of Scotland's income is it mandatory to send to Westminster with tax rates as they are right now?

How does that compare to the percentage of UK income which it is mandated to send to the EU.

2 numbers. That's all I ask.

You want numbers knowing they are the refuge of a fool.

Statistics can be twisted in a myriad ways. I don't care to bandy numbers with you.

(Furthermore I neither know nor give a damn about such abstruse data. ok?)

I gave you a short, honest answer...

...after having given you the rationalisation and reasoning of why your desire is flawed.

IF YOU CANNOT READ WHY SHOULD I BOTHER REPLYING AGAIN?

I realise the flaw in me having typed this response in words. To you.... sigh...

[oaksoft]

You want numbers knowing they are the refuge of a fool.

Statistics can be twisted in a myriad ways. I don't care to bandy numbers with you.

(Furthermore I neither know nor give a damn about such abstruse data. ok?)

I gave you a short, honest answer...

...after having given you the rationalisation and reasoning of why your desire is flawed.

IF YOU CANNOT READ WHY SHOULD I BOTHER REPLYING AGAIN?

I realise the flaw in me having typed this response in words. To you.... sigh...

You could have saved yourself. a shit load of typing by simply saying you dont know.

Im disappointed in you. You seemed so f**king cocksure of your facts only to be called out as yet another clueless numpty.

[nosferatu]

Quite funny to see the SNP fan fans now arguing that we're better together...

Of course we're better together.

Better in the UK. Better in Europe.

SNP = UKIP

[nosferatu]

You could have saved yourself. a shit load of typing by simply saying you dont know.

Im disappointed in you. You seemed so f**king cocksure of your facts only to be called out as yet another clueless numpty.

A bit like yourself.

You low earning, old, fat, unfit, lazy lecturer!

[bluto]

You could have saved yourself. a shit load of typing by simply saying you dont know.

Im disappointed in you. You seemed so f**king cocksure of your facts only to be called out as yet another clueless numpty.

The point is I DO KNOW.

I tried to help you understand why.

You fail to do so. I can do no more.

And to be fair... I think I was first to call the other a "numpty".

So... first dibs etc.

You lose again...