Capital Punishment

[W6er]

When in Belfast to see our game against Linfield, I visited The Crumlin Road Gaol, which I highly recommend.

As well as learning about the history of the prison over the years, I learned many interesting facts, such as the origin of the expression "has the cat got your tongue?", which refers to the cat o'nine tails, and was a question posed to prisoners when they had screamed so much they could no longer make any noise.

However, the highlight for me was the condemned cell and the execution chamber. I was disappointed I couldn't visit the drop room.   It was last used to hang Robert McGladdery in 1961, and as I am about twenty pages away from completing the book I bought there, which details McGladdery's crime, it got me wondering about capital punishment.

I understand the majority of the electorate are, or at least were, in favour of capital punishment. It appears that this is a topic that has never previously been discussed on this forum, which surprises me. I have friends and family with a variety of different opinions - from revulsion at the very idea that people could entertain such barbarism to a friend who thinks "hanging's too good for them" and would like to see murderers hung, drawn and quartered in a public square.

For:

1) It may have a deterrent effect (see Isaac Ehrlich's paper for a pro-deterrence argument).

2) It's just in crimes of murder (a life for a life).

3) It could be cheaper than incarceration for life (I know the US appeal system makes it more expensive - but the act of executing a murderer saves the costs incurred to feed, accommodate a prisoner and the staff required to ensure he doesn't escape).

 

Against:

1) You could execute the wrong man.

2) The state can be seen to be perpetrating cold blooded murder as a form of revenge (after capturing a criminal, he is at the mercy of the state).

3) It could be used by the state to persecute political opponents or oppress citizens.

 

That's not an exhaustive list, but it's what comes to mind. I will not vote yet and slip mine in later so as not to influence the poll, appear impartial and keep my own view private.  

[exiledfan]

I went to Cambodia on a tour and visited the genocide museum. ("museum" is not a term to use) and killing Fields.

Was fortunate enough to meet some of the only survivors and hear their story's.  

It was a day that as a tour group we hardly spoke and all felt a lot of shame in the way the west had ignored this. 

For me corporal punishment and death penalty is not right any where, including USA. 

The execution of UK citizens by the Russians as corporal punishment should see Putin jailed for life not executed. 

We should be better as society than killing and torturing. 

[W6er]

2 minutes ago, exiledfan said:

I went to Cambodia on a tour and visited the genocide museum. ("museum" is not a term to use) and killing Fields.

Was fortunate enough to meet some of the only survivors and hear their story's.  

It was a day that as a tour group we hardly spoke and all felt a lot of shame in the way the west had ignored this. 

For me corporal punishment and death penalty is not right any where, including USA. 

The execution of UK citizens by the Russians as corporal punishment should see Putin jailed for life not executed. 

We should be better as society than killing and torturing. 

Interesting stuff! Of course that was more ideological than anything, and Communist, indeed all totalitarian regimes, usually control by fear and to do that they have to murder their political adversaries.

I think the crucial difference is that the victims of the Khmer Rouge were not guilty of murder, but simply were seen as a threat to the government. If Myra Hindley was hanged many people would suggest she deserved it.

[exiledfan]

4 minutes ago, W6er said:

Interesting stuff! Of course that was more ideological than anything, and Communist, indeed all totalitarian regimes, usually control by fear and to do that they have to murder their political adversaries.

I think the crucial difference is that the victims of the Khmer Rouge were not guilty of murder, but simply were seen as a threat to the government. If Myra Hindley was hanged many people would suggest she deserved it.

That's all very true.

[faraway saint]

10 minutes ago, exiledfan said:

I went to Cambodia on a tour and visited the genocide museum. ("museum" is not a term to use) and killing Fields.

Was fortunate enough to meet some of the only survivors and hear their story's.  

It was a day that as a tour group we hardly spoke and all felt a lot of shame in the way the west had ignored this. 

For me corporal punishment and death penalty is not right any where, including USA. 

The execution of UK citizens by the Russians as corporal punishment should see Putin jailed for life not executed. 

We should be better as society than killing and torturing. 

You're getting mixed up with a torturous regime and a person who has needlessly murdered an innocent member of the public.

Bringing Cambodia, and the atrocities that happened there is, to be frank, bizarre. 

Also mentioning Russia is absolutely nothing to do with the subject. 

 

 

[W6er]

4 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

You're getting mixed up with a torturous regime and a person who has needlessly murdered an innocent member of the public.

Bringing Cambodia, and the atrocities that happened there is, to be frank, bizarre. 

Also mentioning Russia is absolutely nothing to do with the subject. 

 

 

Have you not worked out how to vote in the poll, yet? 

[exiledfan]

3 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

You're getting mixed up with a torturous regime and a person who has needlessly murdered an innocent member of the public.

Bringing Cambodia, and the atrocities that happened there is, to be frank, bizarre. 

Also mentioning Russia is absolutely nothing to do with the subject. 

 

 

Not really . Look at what W6er is saying same principle. UK in Ireland during troubles have nothing to be proud about. 

[exiledfan]

Just now, W6er said:

Have you not worked out how to vote in the poll, yet? 

He's no worked out how to wipe his arse after a shit yet. 

[faraway saint]

1 minute ago, exiledfan said:

He's no worked out how to wipe his arse after a shit yet. 

Eh? 

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, W6er said:

Have you not worked out how to vote in the poll, yet? 

It's going well, I don't need to work that out. 

[W6er]

4 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

It's going well, I don't need to work that out. 

Well you not only believe in capital punishment, but endorse executing minors, so I had you down as a fanatical exponent. 😉

[Guest]

How many of you are going to watch the WC this year in Qatar?

They have a horrific human rights record. The only reason the WC is being held in that country is because of money.

We all live in a corrupt society.

The Commonwealth games are on just now. They are based on a historic powerful regime stealing, raping, pillaging, and murdering local people. Yet we “celebrate” it every 4 years?

Is that right that I have to pay a license fee for this celebration of culture?

Do you know how Hong Kong came into British hands? Look up the history of the Opium wars that were started by two Scotsmen.

[faraway saint]

8 minutes ago, W6er said:

Well you not only believe in capital punishment, but endorse executing minors, so I had you down as a fanatical exponent. 😉

Yet again, you slide towards this sympathy vote of "minors" and for the umpteenth time fail to mention the crime they would have commited.

You've shown little empathy toward the real victims, the innocents that are needlessly murdered and their families/friends and the abject anger at these crimes from the public, very weird. 

The usual tactic when trying to swerve the subject off course. 

 

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

13 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

How many of you are going to watch the WC this year in Qatar?

They have a horrific human rights record. The only reason the WC is being held in that country is because of money.

We all live in a corrupt society.

The Commonwealth games are on just now. They are based on a historic powerful regime stealing, raping, pillaging, and murdering local people. Yet we “celebrate” it every 4 years?

Is that right that I have to pay a license fee for this celebration of culture?

Do you know how Hong Kong came into British hands? Look up the history of the Opium wars that were started by two Scotsmen.

It’s a voluntary event if the countries taking part didn’t want to participate they don’t need to. I take it you are also referring to the “powerful regime “ that brought law and order, education and prosperity to a third of the world. The same blood thirsty regime that banned slavery in all its colonies and began the process of banning slavery throughout the world for the first time in human history. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by ALBIONSAINT

[W6er]

7 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

It’s a voluntary event if the countries taking part didn’t want to participate they don’t need to. I take it you are also referring to the “powerful regime “ that brought law and order, education and prosperity to a third of the world. The same blood thirsty regime that banned slavery in all its colonies and began the process of banning slavery throughout the world for the first time in human history. 

Indeed, people don't seem to appreciate the good that we did, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Infanticide_Prevention_Act,_1870

[Guest]

Just now, ALBIONSAINT said:

It’s a voluntary, if the countries taking part didn’t want to participate they don’t need to. I take it you are also referring to the “powerful regime “ that brought law and order, education and prosperity to a third of the world. The same blood thirsty regime that banned slavery in all its colonies and began the process of banning slavery throughout the world for the first time in human history. 

How much of our “powerful” country was based on slavery? How many people died? How many women were raped to bring that law and order? How many children were orphaned, raped, murdered or starved to death in the name of law, order, education and prosperity?

In this country we watched on as people were shipped off to leave the lands for sheep? 

Native Americans were brutally murdered and persecuted. Even to this day.

Aborigines the same.

Those indigenous people are still suffering to this day.

Many of those in power in these “free” commonwealth countries don’t give a shit for the historic abuse, but recently the local people have had the power through social media to protest against our royal family.

[W6er]

8 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Yet again, you slide towards this sympathy vote of "minors" and for the umpteenth time fail to mention the crime they would have commited.

You've shown little empathy toward the real victims, the innocents that are needlessly murdered and their families/friends and the abject anger at these crimes from the public, very weird. 

The usual tactic when trying to swerve the subject off course. 

 

 

I hope you have a rotten hangover tomorrow!  

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, W6er said:

I hope you have a rotten hangover tomorrow!  

Great response. 

[ALBIONSAINT]

50 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

How much of our “powerful” country was based on slavery? How many people died? How many women were raped to bring that law and order? How many children were orphaned, raped, murdered or starved to death in the name of law, order, education and prosperity?

In this country we watched on as people were shipped off to leave the lands for sheep? 

Native Americans were brutally murdered and persecuted. Even to this day.

Aborigines the same.

Those indigenous people are still suffering to this day.

Many of those in power in these “free” commonwealth countries don’t give a shit for the historic abuse, but recently the local people have had the power through social media to protest against our royal family.

It’s the age long story of the powerful ruling over the weak. Egypt, Greece, Rome, Ottoman Empire, etc, however I would argue that for a lot of these regions our influence was and remains beneficial. I am not a royalist, however I do believe that they are not liable for the sins of there father’s. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by ALBIONSAINT

[ALBIONSAINT]

As for the death penalty.....it doesn’t appear to have any evidence of being a deterrent against murder in the USA. 

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

As for the death penalty.....it doesn’t appear to have any evidence of being a deterrent against murder in the USA. 

Is seems not, but might have some form of justice or closure for the families left behind.

[W6er]

4 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

As for the death penalty.....it doesn’t appear to have any evidence of being a deterrent against murder in the USA. 

 

I think Isaac Ehrlich concluded it does, but I haven't studied it for a long time.

[faraway saint]

1 minute ago, W6er said:

 

I think Isaac Ehrlich concluded it does, but I haven't studied it for a long time.

States that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws. And states that have abolished capital punishment show no significant changes in either crime or murder rates. The death penalty has no deterrent effect.

[StanleySaint]

9 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

How many of you are going to watch the WC this year in Qatar?

They have a horrific human rights record. The only reason the WC is being held in that country is because of money.

We all live in a corrupt society.

The Commonwealth games are on just now. They are based on a historic powerful regime stealing, raping, pillaging, and murdering local people. Yet we “celebrate” it every 4 years?

Is that right that I have to pay a license fee for this celebration of culture?

Do you know how Hong Kong came into British hands? Look up the history of the Opium wars that were started by two Scotsmen.

Yes, yes and the middle east situation was caused by the Hoare Laval pact, you can find an argument that imperialism or exploration is the root of all issues, the Spanish and the Portugese have nothing to be proud about either or the French or Germans, Dutch or Americans, Chinese or Japanese. It really isn't about the cause or previous history it is about now and how we as nations behave and react, human nature will always seek an advantage it is who we are. If you were of that inclination you could blame everything on Eve or the serpent or God for creating us in the first place, let's see how that pans out.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, StanleySaint said:

Yes, yes and the middle east situation was caused by the Hoare Laval pact, you can find an argument that imperialism or exploration is the root of all issues, the Spanish and the Portugese have nothing to be proud about either or the French or Germans, Dutch or Americans, Chinese or Japanese. It really isn't about the cause or previous history it is about now and how we as nations behave and react, human nature will always seek an advantage it is who we are. If you were of that inclination you could blame everything on Eve or the serpent or God for creating us in the first place, let's see how that pans out.

I blame @W6er for starting this yesterday. His fault and his alone for all historic, current and future issues!

 “Aff with his heid” I say!