Big Fras

Ladeeezngennnelmen...my apologies for the length of this post, but not the content:
Sid, enough’s enough.
In the last week I deliberately tried to avoid some kind of personal slanging match /bitch fest. I succumbed with the reference to your hooped past, but that was even done in a silly fashion (ie. Shur Shean ). I made an effort to keep thing polite, even referring to you as “erudite”.
In return I get the usual Sid, twisting & warping every little comment, not reading what people are posting, etc.
EG:
1)You claim I said the St.Mirren brand was “worthless”.
I actually said: “.....its not that strong” (ie. not £4m strong)
2)You queried if I was a St.Mirren supporter.
I responded by explaining how long I have followed the Buds, and the ways that I have tried to “big them up” in the wider media when opportunities arose.
You said that this was the actions of a “fan” not a “supporter”.
OK. I then tried to explain that I have “supported” SMFC in a variety of financial ways over the last ¼ century+.
You then say “...supporting St Mirren is not a measure of how much money you put into it”.
I agree 100% Sid.......but aside from the explained historical, emotional, practical, and financial backing..... I’m left scratching my head at what else I am meant to be doing to qualify as a St.Mirren supporter/fan ?
3)I’d previously explained 2 or 3 times that I didn’t know the debt figure, but knew from Richard’s explanation that it was sizeable enough to take 2-3 years of CIC income to pay off, through direct finance and trade-off conditions. If its OK with you Sid, I’ll listen to Richard on this score.
My concern was simple business/economics – the CIC funds can go to the team quicker if there was less of a debt to pay....no matter how that debt was paid/traded off. I want to see the CIC efforts directly impact on the footballing budget ASAP, and this is one way to achieve it. It is clear that nobody has been able to come close with a bid of £2m, so it is entirely reasonable to review the bid price before completion, especcially with funding "issues" causing delays. This would only benefit the FUTURE of St.Mirren FC.
Tonight, we finally get the pearls of wisdom.....
“If you had read my previous posts on the matter of the £2M, I have always held the opinion that it would be nice if the consortium took some of the £2M and pumped it straight back into the CIC......which is pretty much what I understand to be their intention. “
It would be nice indeed. How philanthropic ! Does it not also happen to be a stipulatuion of the deal by the backers ? I do hope that the BoD stick around with their annual £10k contribs after the obligatory “contracted-in” period expires. Otherwise Richard’s going to have to dust down the old contacts book again, poor sod.
“You also fail to comment on the fact that some of the debt will be traded to zero based on social outcomes.....and that much of the debt is interest free.”
You’ve completely missed the point. Debt is debt is debt. Bottom line is that if the purchase price wasn’t so high, this would be reduced, and we wouldn’t need to wait “2-3 years” (RA) for the CIC to really benefit the team. Interest free / social funding / etc.....it is still a payback method.
You’ve said your piece and your position is now crystal clear. As is mine. We’re not likely to agree, so I’ll just leave it at that. Not much point in carrying this on.

The CIC/RA Report Card
Worth a look at the young anklecicer’s report card as the October school week approaches.
CIC
Based on his research and presentations this should now be in place. Various critics/sceptics, Somner, Animal, Ted, seem to have been proved correct overall. while flagwavers, Poz, Div, Sid, TSU, certain journalists etc, despite their defence and belief seemed to have like so many fallen for the slick talk and promise of places on one of the many boards.
Marks out of 10… 0
Sustainability
Announcing in public that you will walk away if things don’t pan out leaving the club to be run by a collection of 3 committees is hardly the way to go about attracting public funding of around £1,000,000. Imagine the government department handing over the money and the main man walking out a few months down the line. Amateur.
Marks out of 10… 1
Salesmanship
See above. Stunts like pulling out a mobile phone saying that might be the final 1% calling right now while at a meeting called about nothing just to keep the punters happy have to be seen for what they are. Although to be fair turning the biggest section of funding into a mere 1% which is in turn believed by many has to be applauded.
Some local businessmen who were initial backers of the scheme are now amongst its/his most scathing critics.
Marks out of 10… 3
Commercial Director
After so long no sign or announcement of any innovation whatsoever, save some crazy suggestions that attracted ridicule in the press. Laundry - a washout. Church services - don’t go there. CIC members’ bar - an easy sell, some may say beads for the natives.
Marks out of 10… 2
Strip
Strip in appearance is excellent as is the change strip. Quality while not great is commercially acceptable. Talk of a third kit is ridiculous. Trying to link it to 135 anniversary is window dressing, especially as that anniversary is October 2012.
Availability is poor unless you go to the back rack at the back of JD Sports. SMFC brand presence on the ‘high street’ and throughout Paisley at its lowest since the early seventies.
Marks out of 10… 3
Sponsorship
Looks strange. Rumour amongst local businessmen is that very little if any cash benefit to club. The manufacturers putting an associated brand on the kit they manufacture and sell indicates that they would make no money if a decent cash figure changed hands.
Marks out of 10… N/A
Stadium
The Yellow/Carbrini/JD St Mirren Park. Word on the street is that although paid for by Carbrini no real sterling passed hands. Even the Hall of fame boards are predominately JD. These will have to be replaced when the contract ends too. The St. Mirren brand is sadly relegated in favour of JD. Poorly executed overall.
Marks out of 10… 2
Shop
An unmitigated disaster. Story is that he has washed his hands of this. Shop is reduced to some leisure shirts, available in any colour as long as it’s grey, and first strips. Don’t ask about the change top. Almost nothing for children. Forget flags, hats, scarf selection. Cover stories of tight stock management are ridiculous. This is hardly Marks and Sparks. A disgrace. Must have cost the club thousands over the period.
Marks(no sparks) out of 10… minus 100
Events
A Paisley business that attends every function was disappointed that there will be no second dinner this year, usually November. One of the reasons being the uncertainty in the community. Another loss. The commercial manager must be going mad.
Marks out of 10… N/A
Communication
An unmitigated disaster 2. A catalogue of missed deadlines, meetings dressed to suggest progress, information given to the chairman who is quoted in the press and tv that a deal is only a few days away; again, and again. A complete blackout of information for the (loyal) supporters (of the cic) on websites and the cessation of answering questions months ago.
Marks out of 10… minus 100
Attendance
Once never away from the place now never seen.
Marks out of 10… 3
Understanding his subject
A total lack of understanding. Referring to St Mirren FC as a ‘boutique’ football club must rank as the biggest mis-understanding of the pride and mentality of football fans and Buddies ever. We are a traditional but innovative club in our own right and have nearly always been in the top division of football.
Marks out of 10… 0
Credibility
Gone.
Marks out of 10… 0
Prospects
Even if the cic was to go through many, many fans would be worried!
Marks out of 10… 0
TOTAL MARKS OUT OF A POSSIBLE 120… minus 186

I do agree with these points. I feel the quality of strips was getting worse progressively since we got back into the SPL (1st Season back by Xara the exception), however these Carbrini strips...I'm nervous everytime I put them in the washing machine that I might take out little rags once its completed their spin!
The situation regarding the shop does p*ss me off though (sorry for language, but it does). I don't ever remember Provan Sports having such serious problems with availability for stuff like kids socks etc. or maybe I'm wrong?

They are currently in the care of Richard Atkinwande if that makes you feel any better.

What an odd post for a fully signed up CIC supporter.

No, it's not.
It's perfectly reasonable and obvious to all and sundry. If it wasn't St Mirren and perhaps some good to potentially emanate from this for the Paisley Community I would be totally against it. As it is, I hope Richy Rich and the lottery-winners er... SG and the others escaping with the loot manage to pull this off.
If it was for any other club and town I would seriously wonder why public funds should be shovelled into taking control of any Scottish football club, far less one that shows little sign of ever turning sufficient profit to justify its current price tag.
Just because Big Fras appears to have committed to invest a little dosh in an organisation for which he has previously shown rare commitment doesn't rob him of a brain and analytical perception.
Or do you think he's wrong? Should the CIC be shelling out even more than it appears to be willing to do so far?

Semi-serious point:
I think the CIC model is great. My main concern is that it is immediately saddled with too much debt, and a huge amount of the initial "payback" from supporters and community backers is going straight into managing that debt.
This is entirely down to the ludicrous fee being asked by the BoD for the club. Good luck to them if they can get away with it, but with no other bidder to be seen for miles, I think RA is in a position of strength here. Its probably too late, but I would be looking at a "re-evaluation" of the selling price, with a guarantee of fixing the deal as a consequence. Nothing personal, just simple business - supply and demand, etc.
This may cheer up any knicker-wetting public funders, and would also ensure that it speeds up the time where the monies coming in can be spent backing the team on the pitch, which is what we all want to see.
In short:
CIC - good concept. Could be great for the club if actioned properly.
REA good guy - with genuine intentions.
Big problem - CIC loaded with unneccesarily high debt due to agreeing to an asking price that nobody else is prepared to go anywhere near (quite rightly), thus reducing its effectiveness in the critical first 12-36 months.
No problem with the BoD getting their slice from all the work they have out in, but a wee bit of realism is surely warranted here, after all the deal has always been to sell to someone for "the good of the club". Loading a rookie organisation up to the gills with debt due an unjustifiably high asking price is not good for the club.
I can imagine the Dragon's Den scenario. A football club Director meets Duncan "I'm fae Clydebank no' Glasgow" Bannatyne :
Director: I would like £2 million pounds for 52% of my business.
Dragon: So you value your business at nearly £4m pounds?
Director: Yes
Dragon: What profit did you show last year?
Director: Er....nothing
Dragon: What assets does your company hold?
Director: We have a Football stadium with a value of f**k all as land can be purchased locally for very little. That's on the basis that you Dragons - or any bank - would want the option of building houses or a supermarket on it if this goes tits up.We have players on contracts which are all due to expire within 2 years. They are not "top end" players so I suppose the value of those would be..........f**k all.
Dragon: What plans do you have for expansion within the market?
Director: Well, Scottish football is going through a major downturn as attendances fall, sponsorship diminishes and Television deals are being squeezed every year, so I suppose we have f**k all chance of any growth in the next 100 years.
Dragon: Do you have anything positive to tell us?
Director: Well I have persuaded a pleasant businessman to buy the business using the Public Purse and have the debts for this paid off by business groups & supporters who presently really don't have a clue what they will get for their money. Its a great idea and commendably involves the community and supporters - but that lot have got to worry about paying me back first .......because they are going to pay my valuation, even though it bears no relation to the real world.
Dragon: (Ashen faced Bannatyne) f**k me ragged, you should be sitting here!!!!

Semi-serious point:
I think the CIC model is great. My main concern is that it is immediately saddled with too much debt, and a huge amount of the initial "payback" from supporters and community backers is going straight into managing that debt.
This is entirely down to the ludicrous fee being asked by the BoD for the club. Good luck to them if they can get away with it, but with no other bidder to be seen for miles, I think RA is in a position of strength here. Its probably too late, but I would be looking at a "re-evaluation" of the selling price, with a guarantee of fixing the deal as a consequence. Nothing personal, just simple business - supply and demand, etc.
This may cheer up any knicker-wetting public funders, and would also ensure that it speeds up the time where the monies coming in can be spent backing the team on the pitch, which is what we all want to see.
In short:
CIC - good concept. Could be great for the club if actioned properly.
REA good guy - with genuine intentions.
Big problem - CIC loaded with unneccesarily high debt due to agreeing to an asking price that nobody else is prepared to go anywhere near (quite rightly), thus reducing its effectiveness in the critical first 12-36 months.
No problem with the BoD getting their slice from all the work they have out in, but a wee bit of realism is surely warranted here, after all the deal has always been to sell to someone for "the good of the club". Loading a rookie organisation up to the gills with debt due an unjustifiably high asking price is not good for the club.
I can imagine the Dragon's Den scenario. A football club Director meets Duncan "I'm fae Clydebank no' Glasgow" Bannatyne :
Director: I would like £2 million pounds for 52% of my business.
Dragon: So you value your business at nearly £4m pounds?
Director: Yes
Dragon: What profit did you show last year?
Director: Er....nothing
Dragon: What assets does your company hold?
Director: We have a Football stadium with a value of f**k all as land can be purchased locally for very little. That's on the basis that you Dragons - or any bank - would want the option of building houses or a supermarket on it if this goes tits up.We have players on contracts which are all due to expire within 2 years. They are not "top end" players so I suppose the value of those would be..........f**k all.
Dragon: What plans do you have for expansion within the market?
Director: Well, Scottish football is going through a major downturn as attendances fall, sponsorship diminishes and Television deals are being squeezed every year, so I suppose we have f**k all chance of any growth in the next 100 years.
Dragon: Do you have anything positive to tell us?
Director: Well I have persuaded a pleasant businessman to buy the business using the Public Purse and have the debts for this paid off by business groups & supporters who presently really don't have a clue what they will get for their money. Its a great idea and commendably involves the community and supporters - but that lot have got to worry about paying me back first .......because they are going to pay my valuation, even though it bears no relation to the real world.
Dragon: (Ashen faced Bannatyne) f**k me ragged, you should be sitting here!!!!

Just why this lot were a great band....and not the coke-fuelled parody they turned into.....

So you'll agree with Sid and his numerous aliases and recommend that everyone else does too , just cos it suits your agenda ?
Aye very good !

From the same year as Bullit. .
The 'orrible Oo, with the loon. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hje28F-IhLo&feature=related

ffs, im actually a supporter of RA but some of you have propelled him to messiah status. every club liases with the home team on deciding gate prices, its normally set to suit both parties. i think BC was more involved with discussions than RA for that one.
Jeezus, RA got us into ayr race course for a pint lol....... Best one yet!

Ahh yes...... Sid, dead lines. Have you (or anyone else) a plan B or C in mind if we get to Wednesday and the dead line arrives (7 to 10 days said Mr. Gilmour), and is then passed ?
It must be over a year now since Mr. Atkinson came to our club with a 'cunning plan' to buy out Mr Gilmour and his friends.
It's been 99% complete ???? for a good while now. You and your friends have spent the past few months pouring scorn on Animal,Yul, Miss Evans and others. Well it seems they might be proved right after all. Mr. Atkinson has been fairly absent from Greenhill Road over the past few weeks I hear.
Looking today at the so called shop (see also other thread) fills me with very little confidence that Mr. Atkinson is the right man for the job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1TMulrUYME

Touched a nerve or what?
Will you be changing your user name to something that covers all the aliases? Like vicious dicko perhaps?
The way the two of you seem to disagree but always seem to set each other up nicely for the next exchange certainly raises a few suspicions.
You can call me names on here all you like, the fact that i know you would never do it to my face speaks volumes of your self-styled rampaging wit.
If it wasn't so very predictable, i'd brace myself for the next barrage of petty insults and cheeky wee emoticons. However there is that thing known as real life to get on with.

It was the train back from Inverness... As i hang my head in shame.

The "signing" of GLS is a very positive step, and must go a long way to reassure those of us who may have been in favour of a CIC concept, but had reservations as to how it would be run efficiently. Can't think of anyone better for the role, and I'm sure he'll unite most (if not all) to get right behind the CIC.
Throughout many of the online debates GLS had been championed as some kind of "leader of the disenfranchised 48%" - a position that none of his actions merited. Hopefully, his talk of unity will be heeded.
Take a look at the moral and fiscal basket cases that are littering the SPL - especially after tonight. If run properly, this CIC does present an opportunity to pull clear of the stinking mire.
PS Maybe REA has the hide of a rhino, but this week he politely answered some queries I raised via e-mail, and in a reverse of the Keegan meltdown, he "went up in my estimations".

The "signing" of GLS is a very positive step, and must go a long way to reassure those of us who may have been in favour of a CIC concept, but had reservations as to how it would be run efficiently. Can't think of anyone better for the role, and I'm sure he'll unite most (if not all) to get right behind the CIC.
Throughout many of the online debates GLS had been championed as some kind of "leader of the disenfranchised 48%" - a position that none of his actions merited. Hopefully, his talk of unity will be heeded.
Take a look at the moral and fiscal basket cases that are littering the SPL - especially after tonight. If run properly, this CIC does present an opportunity to pull clear of the stinking mire.
PS Maybe REA has the hide of a rhino, but this week he politely answered some queries I raised via e-mail, and in a reverse of the Keegan meltdown, he "went up in my estimations".

On a serious note it is a price worth paying in the long run. St Mirren and other SPL clubs lose a few thousand pounds of UEFA money while r*ngers and c*ltic miss out on millions they were expecting... c*ltic had a big loss last year with a huge squad, massive wage bill and falling gates in the SPL and missed out on te Europa League group stages and are looking at another big loss this year. r*ngers only got a gate of 31k tonight for a crunch European game.