Motherwell going the CIC route ?

[Stuart Dickson]

I think you are confusing yourself by using the term trading arm here Stu. There are multi tier CICs such as Culture & Sport Wegiescumbagland. This is quite different. Sounds like you need another telephone call with REA.

REA has my number Sid. He's phoned it before. However you dress it up though this isn't really that much different to the Falkirk Steins set up, the KSC set up, and the Atlantis Leisure Centre is an exact model to the letter of what 10000hours are trying to do - and they've been doing it so long their lease with the council is up for renewal...Three years ago the SFA was going round amateur clubs embarking on Quality Mark talking about SEN's and setting up umbrella companies to run facilities for groups of community organisations.

The only thing unique about how 10000 hours have approached this is that they've had to get members on board when they don't have anything to offer. Whilst I'm sure many football clubs would like to do the same thing I don't think there are many that would need advice on how to use fans unquestioning loyalty to their advantage - and certainly not to the extent that they would need to pay 10000hours for it.

The fact that REA has brought the CiC model to Paisley and taken it to the point where there's buy in, acceptance, support and the deal is 99% done is impressive, but I suspect where REA will benefit from this is in the construction work that will come from others moving into the SEN sector.

[St. Sid]

Don't thik he will need it as you are too shy to stand.

That is an important point. I wouldn't stand because I have no personal ambitions to run the club. There is also to be gained for me by being a fans representative. In fact it be detrimental to the supporting St Mirren experience that I love.

We need to understand what drives the person that is standing. If all we are looking at is a new group of hingers on filling their pockets with sausage rolls at the expense of the club then we are in some difficulty before we even get off the ground. Do we not have enough freeloaders taking up comps in hositality and at POTY events? One of the first articles in the constitution is that the fan reps will be unpaid, that they will pay their own way - and that includes buying their own f'k'n ties, the [email protected] more importantly that the reps will be barred from doing business to business deals with any of the CIC Commercial / Community Members or with any of the companies of other directors in the business. As a sales person that sells to many of the organisations concerned I would rule myself out as having a conflict of interest.

It would also be impossible for me to continue to post on B&WArmy in my current whimsical style. (That might get me a few votes though. )

Harping back to the 80's.....St Mirren became a wee club for a group of Renfrewshire business people to play with. The structure of the CIC lends itself to business networking - that is the point. However, the check and balance needs to be the complete independence from that of the general members representatives. We cannot have fans members on the BoD who could be compromised through offers of business from the corporate / community members.

[bluto]

We need to understand what drives the person that is standing. If all we are looking at is a new group of hingers on filling their pockets with sausage rolls at the expense of the club then we are in some difficulty before we even get off the ground. Do we not have enough freeloaders taking up comps in hositality and at POTY events?

My understanding is that Club and cic are separate entities so how could cic reps possibly be freeloading at the expense of the club? Or is 'your heid being just mince' a more likely explanation?

It would also be impossible for me to continue to post on B&WArmy in my current whimsical style.

Since when did mince become whimsical?

[St. Sid]

My understanding is that Club and cic are separate entities so how could cic reps possibly be freeloading at the expense of the club? Or is 'your heid being just mince' a more likely explanation?

Since when did mince become whimsical?

At least I spelt whimsical right ya auld bawbag - should you no be jogging in Paisley today?

There will be representation from the CIC Members BoD on the SMFC Board stoopit. The nature of the networking setup of the CIC will also make it very easy for corrupt fan reps to exploit opportunities with corporate / community members. SMFC in its current structure already dispenses significant numbers of free sausage rolls to hingers on. Those padded brown seats are notoriously sticky.

[Stuart Dickson]

and more importantly that the reps will be barred from doing business to business deals with any of the CIC Commercial / Community Members or with any of the companies of other directors in the business.

Sid, I agree that fans reps should pay their own way....but I don't see why they should be banned from doing business with Commercial or Community Members. That to me seems bizarre and counter productive. I would have thought that fans reps would be leading the way in showing fans that they should be supporting the business interests of the CiC Corporate Members rather than be banned from doing so.

If I look at this from a practical sense in the club in Wishaw for example - we have a need occasionally to hire a bus. On our committee we have someone who does regular business with a local bus company. As a result of their business relationship we get substantial discounts on the price of the bus hire. Now wouldn't it be bizarre if we disallowed that bus company from quoting for those trips simply because a committee member has a business relationship with them?

Perhaps what you are searching for is something in the constitution that would ensure that when considering quotations for work, equipment or supplies that no one person should be allowed to make the decision on their own and that business interests should be disclosed and open to all on the board.

[HSS]

That is an important point. I wouldn't stand because I know nobuddie would vote for me.

[St. Sid]

Sid, I agree that fans reps should pay their own way....but I don't see why they should be banned from doing business with Commercial or Community Members. That to me seems bizarre and counter productive. I would have thought that fans reps would be leading the way in showing fans that they should be supporting the business interests of the CiC Corporate Members rather than be banned from doing so.

If I look at this from a practical sense in the club in Wishaw for example - we have a need occasionally to hire a bus. On our committee we have someone who does regular business with a local bus company. As a result of their business relationship we get substantial discounts on the price of the bus hire. Now wouldn't it be bizarre if we disallowed that bus company from quoting for those trips simply because a committee member has a business relationship with them?

Perhaps what you are searching for is something in the constitution that would ensure that when considering quotations for work, equipment or supplies that no one person should be allowed to make the decision on their own and that business interests should be disclosed and open to all on the board.

That offers no protection from criticism though Stu. Your wee diddy club is small enough to get away with your own dodgy dealings. You are also quite different in structure to the CIC set up, which is going to be very much under the microscope. The situation you describe is slightly different from the situation I am talking about. As per above I actually do business with some of the corporate and community members already - therefore I would rule myself out through being compromised. Div has already acknowledged his own conflict of interests in having a business relationship with the club. We have already seen a few weeks of various dafties scrawling through companies house documents to see if they can drag up a bit of dirt on the CIC. That will continue to be the case. We also have some friendly supportive journalists; however we also have some unfriendly and very vocal journalists that would take great delight in shouting any dodgy dealings from the rooftop. A director selling their own companies products or services into the CIC / club is a conflict of interest. I think your scenario might actually be acceptable to most fans. If we got the point were we couldn't order St Mirren bunnets because one of the directors wears a St Mirren bunnet then we might have gone a step too far.

However, the point still is......we don't know what safeguards are in the constitution.

If you think about the various dialogues with the key players in the members board alone you might wonder what / who is having the biggest influence on the constitution. If we think about decision making at the club just now as a Maslow hierarchy of priority what would have......sponsors would be top priority, then the hospitality tie wearing w@nkers, then season ticket holders and then the paying at the gate punter - and then the occasional supporter......and last of all the untapped market of many thousands of potential supporters in Paisley. There might be some differences of opinion in that however there will be a genreal acceptance that there is a prioritisation in terms of the meeting of needs of these St Mirren interest groups.

At the moment we have corporates already signed up. The question is how much input are they being given to the design of the organisation and the constitution that will define how the CIC functions and who has priority in decision making. We then have the community members signed up each with a documented and signed MoU - have they had input, visibility of the draft constitution? The social funding orgs will almost certainly have input into the constitution as they will have specific criteria for it. Above all of that we have the CIC proposers actually writing the constitution. To date as far as I am aware the support has not had any visibility of the constitution or any information relating to even the key points in it. For me a period of consultation with access to the draft document would be a very positive step in bringing in more supporters to the CIC....more CIC members = more money coming in.

Let's not get bogged down in a debate about what should and should not be in the constitution, or what may or may not be in the constitution.....let's actually see what is in an absolutely critical document.

I have been saying it for a while. Getting the positive momentum for the CIC has been great and the right thing to do. Now we need to ensure that due dilligence takes place. Remember the CIC can't happen until the general members approve the constitution. Seeing the draft document now will fast track that process. What we don't want is a short, powerpoint based couple of meetings with CIC supporters bullying it through. Hopefully SMiSA are all over that document already.

[St. Sid]

Already been approached and knocked it back.

[Guest somner9]

Already been approached and knocked it back.

Motherwell going the CIC route ?

No!

Seems they've got a much better plan

[civilsaint]

Motherwell going the CIC route ?

No!

Seems they've got a much better plan

In terms of specifics, chalk and cheese, because circumstances are totally different.

Anyway, what is "better" about their plan?

[marrez]

In terms of specifics, chalk and cheese, because circumstances are totally different.

Anyway, what is "better" about their plan?

The fans are being given the owners stake so they dont start with a 2m debt to repay.

I would guess.

[civilsaint]

The fans are being given the owners stake so they dont start with a 2m debt to repay.

I would guess.

Somner was comparing their plan to ours, it can't be "better" if it isn't even a possibility at St Mirren, which it isn't.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

To date as far as I am aware the support has not had any visibility of the constitution or any information relating to even the key points in it. For me a period of consultation with access to the draft document would be a very positive step in bringing in more supporters to the CIC....more CIC members = more money coming in.

Let's not get bogged down in a debate about what should and should not be in the constitution, or what may or may not be in the constitution.....let's actually see what is in an absolutely critical document.

... so you haven't got very far working with the draft constitution document that RA had passed on to you then?

[Guest somner9]

Somner was comparing their plan to ours, it can't be "better" if it isn't even a possibility at St Mirren, which it isn't.

It's a possibilty if the Selling consortium and the fans want it to be.

[Stuart Dickson]

I don't see how you can say the Motherwell plan is better than the 10000hours one at all. All Motherwell fans were told was that they are setting up as an Industrial and Provident Society, that membership will start at £300, that there would be a premium membership called the 1886 which was aimed at businesses giving them a "mouthwatering array of benefits" without outlining what they would be, and that initially the IPS would only obtain a 45% shareholding with John Boyle retaining majority control until he was happy the IPS was fully functioning and ready to take full control.

They've set no membership targets, talked of aiming to raise £1.5m of capital and they've promised that this will secure the future of the club for a very long time - without detailing how £1.5m will secure the club a higher level of income going forward and without detailing how many members they need to become fully functioning. They haven't even managed to gain approval of their plans from the FSA.

I welcome the fact that my local team are looking to move their running of their club back to a more traditional model within Scottish Football but I think it's far too early to make a judgement that says what they are doing is any better than what's happening at Clyde, Stenhousmuir, or Edinburgh Spartans never mind 10000hours.

[Guest somner9]

I don't see how you can say the Motherwell plan is better than the 10000hours one at all. All Motherwell fans were told was that they are setting up as an Industrial and Provident Society, that membership will start at £300, that there would be a premium membership called the 1886 which was aimed at businesses giving them a "mouthwatering array of benefits" without outlining what they would be, and that initially the IPS would only obtain a 45% shareholding with John Boyle retaining majority control until he was happy the IPS was fully functioning and ready to take full control.

They've set no membership targets, talked of aiming to raise £1.5m of capital and they've promised that this will secure the future of the club for a very long time - without detailing how £1.5m will secure the club a higher level of income going forward and without detailing how many members they need to become fully functioning. They haven't even managed to gain approval of their plans from the FSA.

I welcome the fact that my local team are looking to move their running of their club back to a more traditional model within Scottish Football but I think it's far too early to make a judgement that says what they are doing is any better than what's happening at Clyde, Stenhousmuir, or Edinburgh Spartans never mind 10000hours.

Motherwell will be completey owned by their support, the wheels are in motion. You're right to point out that not everything is in place yet, however 45% of Boyle's shares are transferring over as soon as the IPS comes into being, with the balance to follow when it's complete (Membership etc)

So MFC aren't even asking for the membership investment yet, (After FSA approval) and crucially it will be membership and investment directly into MFC not a piggy back company. It will have ONE board with at least two fan representatives, and every member regardless of £300 individual or £25,000 corporate wil have the same say ONE VOTE!

The multi board, over valued 10000 hours CiC offer is pale in comparison. I wonder who's approved 10000 hours proposal? The FSA??? i think not

You want to get your wee team in there, seems like there streets ahead already in securing funding for community projects (The club that is not a piggy back company)

It just hit me what 10000 hours proposed Cic reminds me of1 Doh!!! Very much like the multitude of training and development companies set up to cream funding from Tec's etc for training and iniatives that never happened or when scrutinised were shown to be totally inadequate. They hawked themselves round every business and organisation insisting they could access training, funding and grants that no one else could...

Strangely though the cash and benefits never quite materialised

[Stuart Dickson]

Motherwell will be completey owned by their support, the wheels are in motion. You're right to point out that not everything is in place yet, however 45% of Boyle's shares are transferring over as soon as the IPS comes into being, with the balance to follow when it's complete (Membership etc)

So MFC aren't even asking for the membership investment yet, (After FSA approval) and crucially it will be membership and investment directly into MFC not a piggy back company. It will have ONE board with at least two fan representatives, and every member regardless of £300 individual or £25,000 corporate wil have the same say ONE VOTE!

The multi board, over valued 10000 hours CiC offer is pale in comparison. I wonder who's approved 10000 hours proposal? The FSA??? i think not

You want to get your wee team in there, seems like there streets ahead already in securing funding for community projects (The club that is not a piggy back company)

It just hit me what 10000 hours proposed Cic reminds me of1 Doh!!! Very much like the multitude of training and development companies set up to cream funding from Tec's etc for training and iniatives that never happened or when scrutinised were shown to be totally inadequate. They hawked themselves round every business and organisation insisting they could access training, funding and grants that no one else could...

Strangely though the cash and benefits never quite materialised

There's no route to get the wee team in there Somner - that's the point. The wee team don't want to become Motherwell In The Community, they want to retain their own identity, their own constitution and they want to retain the independence to make their own decisions and there's nothing on the table to suggest this would ever be an option.

The Motherwell proposal isn't as far on as you're making out. They do have fewer hurdles to overcome but where is the detail? In what way will £1.5m secure their long term future when it won't even cover 8 months of wages. The stadium becomes asset locked but what is in the stadium that can generate funds? What do the club own that could be used to the benefit of the community?

At this stage Somner I don't think it's possible to say that what is on the table in Motherwell is more or less attractive than any of the other options. For me it just looks like yet another club that is missing where it's mass market should be. Maybe as the months roll on we'll see more meat on the bones but I'm not overly excited about what's happening at the SPL club on my doorstep.

[St. Sid]

... so you haven't got very far working with the draft constitution document that RA had passed on to you then?

I haven't asked for a copy yet. Dunno if I can be @rsed with it to be perfectly honest. I'd would rather keep St Mirren down to going along to the games and making a few daft posts on the Internet to annoy Faraway Saint.

However, if anyone else is concerned about it I am sure REA will be happy to meet with them. As per the intitial post, my concern is that there may be a false view amongst the support that someone is doing due dilligence on this. As far as I know that is not happening. A few fans have been involved in the odd chat here and there. However as yet no one has really dug into the detail AFAIK. So the CIC as it stands is the work of the current board and the CIC Board.

I'm happy to pay my tenner-a-month like another few hundred fans to see where it takes us. However, like most fans I have neither the time or the inclination to get involved any deeper than that. The couple of meetings with REA were a giggle, as were the faces on some fans when I turned up as REA's guest at a SMiSA meeting. Other than that appealing to my sense of humour to annoy certain fans daft enough to think I was angling for involvement I have no greater insight into the CIC than the next fan.

I do think that some fans have got caught up in the "personal opportunity" for them. Like myself they were inclined to respond positively to the CIC. Their objectivity must now be called into question though. I would like to see some less enthusiastic supporters do the due dilligence for this stage of the process. However, if no one can be @rsed then we'll just have to let the process take its course and hope for the best.

[bud77]

From what I've read about Motherwell's plans, it seems that they want businesses to pay £25,000 and individual fans to pay £300 plus £50 a year for membership. For that membership they get to vote 2 members on to a board of how many ? Motherwell bank all the money but there doesn't seem to be anything saying the fans will have a say in how it's spent and there doesn't seem to be any mentiom of involvement by community groups - so the only real funding will be what the fans and businesses pay in. This sounds to me a little like the Dee 4 Life (before the 2nd administration) where the fans give the club money, have a couple of people elected to the board but have no real say in how the club's run

[TsuMirren]

It all looks like yet another fund the mistakes, cleverly (depending on who is reading it) badged as true fan involvement. Somner makes a comment about Motherwell being completed owned by the fans, but surely the 48% are all Saint Mirren fans...indeed, the CIC will offer them a place on the board should they wish.

Another statement by somner regarding one member one vote. Where, aside from in the case of a corporate slot being shared, has that actually been mentioned as NOT being the case with the CIC?

Somner has shown a bit of his true colours though, he's only interested in token representation and investment coming from somewhere, anywhere really, with no plan and no promise of sustainability.

[Evil_Panda]

I haven't asked for a copy yet. Dunno if I can be @rsed with it to be perfectly honest. I'd would rather keep St Mirren down to going along to the games and making a few daft posts on the Internet to annoy Faraway Saint.

However, if anyone else is concerned about it I am sure REA will be happy to meet with them. As per the intitial post, my concern is that there may be a false view amongst the support that someone is doing due dilligence on this. As far as I know that is not happening. A few fans have been involved in the odd chat here and there. However as yet no one has really dug into the detail AFAIK. So the CIC as it stands is the work of the current board and the CIC Board.

I'm happy to pay my tenner-a-month like another few hundred fans to see where it takes us. However, like most fans I have neither the time or the inclination to get involved any deeper than that. The couple of meetings with REA were a giggle, as were the faces on some fans when I turned up as REA's guest at a SMiSA meeting. Other than that appealing to my sense of humour to annoy certain fans daft enough to think I was angling for involvement I have no greater insight into the CIC than the next fan.

I do think that some fans have got caught up in the "personal opportunity" for them. Like myself they were inclined to respond positively to the CIC. Their objectivity must now be called into question though. I would like to see some less enthusiastic supporters do the due dilligence for this stage of the process. However, if no one can be @rsed then we'll just have to let the process take its course and hope for the best.

basically what you are saying is that you youself got caught up in a 'personal opportunity' to boost your own ego? if all your intention was to pay your tenner a month and leave it at that then why go through the charade of courting RA and the CiC? Did you see an opportunity for yourself and then realised you were out your depth?

not that long ago you were posting for people to get together to discuss plans for the CiC, what happened?

you are a gobshite mate.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Evil_Panda

[St. Sid]

It all looks like yet another fund the mistakes, cleverly (depending on who is reading it) badged as true fan involvement. Somner makes a comment about Motherwell being completed owned by the fans, but surely the 48% are all Saint Mirren fans...indeed, the CIC will offer them a place on the board should they wish.

Another statement by somner regarding one member one vote. Where, aside from in the case of a corporate slot being shared, has that actually been mentioned as NOT being the case with the CIC?

Somner has shown a bit of his true colours though, he's only interested in token representation and investment coming from somewhere, anywhere really, with no plan and no promise of sustainability.

You are getting into bunker mode again. The 52% shareholding in the CIC model will not be owned by fans. In fact St Mirren fans will only have minority representation on the members board, which is really only going to be able to influence at best overall strategy - whatever that might mean. Enthusiasm and momentum was fine in the early selling phase of the CIC proposals. You now need to stop the overly defensive bollox and start drilling into the detail. Every time you are challenged on detail rather than seeking the correct answer you slabber any old bollox to support your position of being pro-CIC. At the meetings we hear about fans that have been into SMP and have drilled down into the figures and the detail - who are they, where are the detailed answers to questions that are being asked, why don't these people stand up and make themselves known, do they actually exist?

The response to 'well's own efforts to strengthen their club is pish poor. Anything that helps a Scottish football club progress has to be good.

Let's actually see some pragmatic analysis of the detail of the CIC as that has been lacking in the entire debate.

[Guest somner9]

The differences between the 10000 hours CiC approach, and the "Well Society" IPS approach

A CiC member contributes a given amount each year (£120):

He/she could be on, and vote for the fans board, but can neither vote or be voted on to the exec board or the board of SMFC

A Well Society member INVESTS! a given amount (Initially £300, then minimum of £50 each year after that)

He/she could be on, and votes for the ONE and only board

A CiC members contribution is just that! a contribution with the promise of some benefits (Bar, and???)

A Well Society's members contribution is in fact an INVESTMENT (I.e. you can take it back out again, and it may at some point pay a dividend?)

CiC fan board members thrash out "Pie with Beans issues"

Well Society Board members thrash out all the executive decisions at the club

Yes it's a bit of an evocative set of examples, and so it should be! RA and his crew would have you believe that paying your contribution into a company that owns 52% of the club, equates to what will happen at MFC where the members will actually become the clubs shareholders!

Chalk & Cheese you say???

Never a more truthful word spoken!

[St. Sid]

basically what you are saying is that you youself got caught up in a 'personal opportunity' to boost your own ego? if all your intention was to pay your tenner a month and leave it at that then why go through the charade of courting RA and the CiC? Did you see an opportunity for yourself and then realised you were out your depth?

not that long ago you were posting for people to get together to discuss plans for the CiC, what happened?

you are a gobshite mate.

I actually like the CIC idea. I do think that REA is a genuine type; however I also recognise modern management techniques - he needs to build a team that can deliver the CIC for no salary. That is going to be a challenge. Serious involvement from me would require around £50K per year - any paid CEO / Director role would not cover that salary for me. And in any case my skill set would not be suitable for the role. So anyone seriously interested either wants a hall monitors badge or sees a networking opportunity for their business. Neither interests me - so never an opportunity for me.

As per my earlier post my involvement consisted of a meeting with REA to ask a few questions and that was fine. A bit bemused at being asked as I said to him at the time. Firstly I probably have little influence on St Mirren's fans as I have only been involved in supporting the club for around 12 years. Secondly, most Saints fans only know me as an online alias that generally posts made up nonsense. Any supporter that takes my posts on anything, especially the CIC, seriously needs to take a long hard look at their gullability ratios.

The CIC is a good idea. All the CIC chaps I have met have been very impressive. The plan itself is in my humble opinion is a very good one and ticks all my boxes in terms of what I would like for the club. However, my own opinion is a humble one. (but let's be honest - we have seen some powerpoint and a marketing document). What was important was that the CIC chaps plans were heard. That has happened and Saints fans have made up their own mind rightly or wrongly.

There has been no "courting of the CIC" or REA. The opposite is true though. I was invited to meet REA not the other way around. And as above I was actually a bit embarrassed by it as there are far more passionate and long standing St Mirren supporters that should have been given that opportunity. One can only guess that I was given priority over other fans as I have a big mouth on the Internet and that was a concern for them. Joining the Magnificent 7 would have appealed to my twisted sense of humour.

You will also find that I dropped out of the chosen one nonsense pretty early as I felt it was time to let REA and the CIC guys get on with it. I was tempted to get involved again as the draft constitution and the detail is still as concern. However, why should I be the one to take on that resposibility. No desire for a hall monitors badge and no financial incentive. A thankless task basically.

So to answer your daft tirade. I see no "opportunity" within the CIC other than a hall monitors badge for those that require that sort of thing for their particular personality types. I do think there are some that are looking at the CIC as a networking opportunity for their businesses. That is not a necessarily a negative as it will ensure a certain level of enthusiasm for their involvement - so long as it is monitored and the individuals recognise that their first priority is to represent the fans views and not horse trade the fans position for their own business relationship development.

REA is a genuinely nice guy and I do think he has the best of intentions; however there will be times when there are conflicts of interest within the complex miriad of organisations competing for their interests to be met.

Although to be fair I am indeed a gobshite.

[St. Sid]

The differences between the 10000 hours CiC approach, and the "Well Society" IPS approach

A CiC member contributes a given amount each year (£120):

He/she could be on, and vote for the fans board, but can neither vote or be voted on to the exec board or the board of SMFC

A Well Society member INVESTS! a given amount (Initially £300, then minimum of £50 each year after that)

He/she could be on, and votes for the ONE and only board

A CiC members contribution is just that! a contribution with the promise of some benefits (Bar, and???)

A Well Society's members contribution is in fact an INVESTMENT (I.e. you can take it back out again, and it may at some point pay a dividend?)

CiC fan board members thrash out "Pie with Beans issues"

Well Society Board members thrash out all the executive decisions at the club

Yes it's a bit of an evocative set of examples, and so it should be! RA and his crew would have you believe that paying your contribution into a company that owns 52% of the club, equates to what will happen at MFC where the members will actually become the clubs shareholders!

Chalk & Cheese you say???

Never a more truthful word spoken!

Dunno why this has to be a contest. The reality is that there is not a one size fits all best option. SMFC and MFC are both SPL clubs for the moment; however they are both in a very different set of circumstances. The 'well fans appear to have lucked out with that rat f"k bin raking con man of an owner walking away from the club - however he has raped and pillaged many a business in his career and you have to worry about what he has been up to with this. However, on the face of it, it does look like the 'well fans are starting from a position of strength. They don't have the £2M to find. We have had a very different type of owners. They have done well for the club - they haven't used administration to rape and pillage their way to financial success - so they do require a return on their investment and have been open and up front about it. You only have to take a look at Killie's ownership to see that we actually have one of the straightest BoD's in the UK and have survived because of it. Our BoDs prior to that nearly shat the club out of existence in an ego trip.

Our strength is that we have a shiney new stadium. 'well at some point are going to have to do something about their stadium and that will require a capital investment that they just don't have. I would imagine that they will have to sell the existing site at some point and make a similar move to ours. I think they will have a long wait to find a similar deal to the one we got. Undertaking that sort of project with a BoD made up of elected fans would not be easy. Arguing the toss about the price of pies and the design of a shirt is one thing - delivering a stadium move is a very different matter.

The 'well fans just the same as us need to look at the detail and make an informed decision on whether it is worthwhile. Although you do get the impression that 'well are just taking advantage of the fans during a wee purple patch for the playing side. The spectre of Boyle does leave you concerned about the reason behind it.

However, two strong protected non-OF SPL clubs is good news for Scottish football. Why we would want to get into an "ours is great", "yours is shite" debate is quite bizarre. If anything we should be looking to work together - there could be an opportunity to look at shared fees for getting in external expertise to do due dilligence on the deals, etc. Cetainly we should be looking at the fans groups working together even just to share ideas.