Motherwell going the CIC route ?

[Stuart Dickson]

The differences between the 10000 hours CiC approach, and the "Well Society" IPS approach

A CiC member contributes a given amount each year (£120):

He/she could be on, and vote for the fans board, but can neither vote or be voted on to the exec board or the board of SMFC

A Well Society member INVESTS! a given amount (Initially £300, then minimum of £50 each year after that)

He/she could be on, and votes for the ONE and only board

A CiC members contribution is just that! a contribution with the promise of some benefits (Bar, and???)

A Well Society's members contribution is in fact an INVESTMENT (I.e. you can take it back out again, and it may at some point pay a dividend?)

CiC fan board members thrash out "Pie with Beans issues"

Well Society Board members thrash out all the executive decisions at the club

Yes it's a bit of an evocative set of examples, and so it should be! RA and his crew would have you believe that paying your contribution into a company that owns 52% of the club, equates to what will happen at MFC where the members will actually become the clubs shareholders!

Chalk & Cheese you say???

Never a more truthful word spoken

Somner, the one bit of detail that is totally clear st Motherwell is that you can't get your £300 back. There is potential for dividends but there is no prospect of a return of the initial investment.

I agree with Sid that it doesnt have to be a contest and I am well aware that in the initial stages of 10000hours I was a critic too. As Ive said already we just need to wait and see the flesh on the bones but at the moment Im more enthusiastic about 10000hours than I am about whats on my doorstep

[Guest somner9]

Dunno why this has to be a contest. The reality is that there is not a one size fits all best option. SMFC and MFC are both SPL clubs for the moment; however they are both in a very different set of circumstances. The 'well fans appear to have lucked out with that rat f"k bin raking con man of an owner walking away from the club - however he has raped and pillaged many a business in his career and you have to worry about what he has been up to with this. However, on the face of it, it does look like the 'well fans are starting from a position of strength. They don't have the £2M to find. We have had a very different type of owners. They have done well for the club - they haven't used administration to rape and pillage their way to financial success - so they do require a return on their investment and have been open and up front about it. You only have to take a look at Killie's ownership to see that we actually have one of the straightest BoD's in the UK and have survived because of it. Our BoDs prior to that nearly shat the club out of existence in an ego trip.

Our strength is that we have a shiney new stadium. 'well at some point are going to have to do something about their stadium and that will require a capital investment that they just don't have. I would imagine that they will have to sell the existing site at some point and make a similar move to ours. I think they will have a long wait to find a similar deal to the one we got. Undertaking that sort of project with a BoD made up of elected fans would not be easy. Arguing the toss about the price of pies and the design of a shirt is one thing - delivering a stadium move is a very different matter.

The 'well fans just the same as us need to look at the detail and make an informed decision on whether it is worthwhile. Although you do get the impression that 'well are just taking advantage of the fans during a wee purple patch for the playing side. The spectre of Boyle does leave you concerned about the reason behind it.

However, two strong protected non-OF SPL clubs is good news for Scottish football. Why we would want to get into an "ours is great", "yours is shite" debate is quite bizarre. If anything we should be looking to work together - there could be an opportunity to look at shared fees for getting in external expertise to do due dilligence on the deals, etc. Cetainly we should be looking at the fans groups working together even just to share ideas.

Ours-v-Theirs not an issue for me, I only responded to posters that suggested that Well fans were geting a worse deal. Where clearly they will actually own their club, and not a bit of a company

Could two spl clubs i.e. SMFC & MFC work together to share expertise in community/ownership issues? Common sense would say yes, but we are talking football, sorry Professional football here where common sense is seen as an elitist aspiration.

Up to Well supporters to crack on and take control.

You are right to highlight the criminally sparse detail availble to members (Individual/Community) as to detailed business and operational planning and constitutional affairs. Begs the question about if you've pledged to support it whay aren't you organising and setting the agenda?

like the brand well have put up for the society though, why are we stuck with the 10000 shades of beige approach?

Edited September 9, 2011 by somner9

[pozbaird]

like the brand well have put up for the society though, why are we stuck with the 10000 shades of beige approach?

Nonsense.

It's black, white, and Pantone 185 red.

[Guest somner9]

Nonsense.

It's black, white, and Pantone 185 red.

Aye i can see the pants right enough

Can't you change it to a fist squeezing the life out of a ton fan?

[St. Sid]

Ours-v-Theirs not an issue for me, I only responded to posters that suggested that Well fans were geting a worse deal.

Not my intent there although by responding to you quote in particular I can see how it reads that way. More of a general comment on the responses to you. I actually think you have raised some genuine concerns and not necessarily anti-CIC. And to repeat yet again my concern is the sort of response concerns are getting.

It is overly defensive still. Entering this phase of due dilligence in relation to the operational structure no one has been able to demonstrate any useful knowledge of the CIC's workings. Instead we are seeing the same old dismissive arrogant bollox - and with n odd element of smugness - not from a laughing and joking angle, but genuine creepy smugness.

All of the social funders will have seen this draft constitution and no doubt had significant input in its content. I am pretty sure that commercial members will have seen the document and again had some input. We know that at least one of the community members will have been involved in it. At what point are we going to get even a snippet of the detail beyond a marketing document / powerpoint sales pitch or one fan at a time being invited along for a chat.

The social funders putting money in have been given a shitload of time and no doubt access to every bit of information available. How much time and consultation will the fans investing money in the CIC be allowed? Will a further watering down of the initial pledgers be acceptable in terms of the budget required for the CIC to go ahead. If all that is required is a majority vote in a hand count in a room full of positive pro-CIC fans are we really going to carry out the due dilligence stage properly from the general fans membership perspective. Asyet we haven't even been given the courtesy of the process for ratifying the constitution let alone a hint at its content. Instead momentum is being allowed to build. Fans just want it all to be sorted out and to move on. Will we allow time for proper due dilligence or is this going to be steamrollered through by the momentum to see the deal done?

[Evil_Panda]

Not my intent .............blah blah etc

why dont you follow your own advice and contact the man direct with your concerns? then post the response.

[St. Sid]

why dont you follow your own advice and contact the man direct with your concerns? then post the response.

This is exactly the issue now. Anyone that expreses any concern irrespective of whether they support the CIC or not will get childish responses like this one. That is the point being made. Me and REA are still very much on speaking terms and if I need to I can call him and vice versa. Surely it is up to fans to own up to how much they actually know rather than REA to divulge this in a phone call to one fan.

My concern is that the desire for something to happen is overtaking the basic necessity to ensure that what we signing up to is what we actually think it is. Only genuine detail being provided to ALL of the support for a consultation period prior to the meetings to ratify the constitution will deliver that. Many fans are claiming to be "in the know" - so why are they so shy with details. There is a lot of faith being put into the CIC and the people involved by fans , but there doesn't appear to be much trust in them beyond a handpicked few. Now either they don't know the detail or worse they are with holding the detail as they reckon rank and file fans can't be trusted with it.

If you have signed up to the CIC then you must have the detail......so feel free to tell us how the CIC will operate from a fans perspective.

Edited September 9, 2011 by St. Sid

[Evil_Panda]

This is exactly the issue now. Anyone that expreses any concern irrespective of whether they support the CIC or not will get childish responses like this one. That is the point being made. Me and REA are still very much on speaking terms and if I need to I can call him and vice versa. Surely it is up to fans to own up to how much they actually know rather than REA to divulge this in a phone call to one fan.

My concern is that the desire for something to happen is overtaking the basic necessity to ensure that what we signing up to is what we actually think it is. Only genuine detail being provided to ALL of the support for a consultation period prior to the meetings to ratify the constitution will deliver that. Many fans are claiming to be "in the know" - so why are they so shy with details. There is a lot of faith being put into the CIC and the people involved by fans , but there doesn't appear to be much trust in them beyond a handpicked few. Now either they don't know the detail or worse they are with holding the detail as they reckon rank and file fans can't be trusted with it.

If you have signed up to the CIC then you must have the detail......so feel free to tell us how the CIC will operate from a fans perspective.

first point, you have spent months throwing insults and generally talking shite when anyone with a concern asked a question on here. as someone pointed out a long time ago, your posting style will have put off alot of fans from persuing genuine concerns on here. im not talking about the obvious trolls but posters back at the begining were steamrollered by yourself into not asking questions.

secondly, i have no idea how it works and yes, ive signed up. i was put off raising any points by posters like you who rubbished everyones concerns and kept bleating on about how good it was to be a buddy etc.

i am simply putting my trust into this venture in the absence of any other credible alternative. the board wants out and the club will stagnate under their leadership, they have said as much.

personally i have found the whole public consultation a little disappointing and i have spoke to many st.mirren fans who dont use the net and they havent a clue about the whole thing. many didnt even know about the £10 membership etc. save for one flyer handed out a few weeks back has the CIC publicised this enough to the punters in the stands?

im not replying to any of the middle bit of your post, gobshite.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

I don't think many CIC pledgers have got involved because of any benefits which may come their way as a result of being involved with the CIC - eg having a members' bar swung it and made them decide to invest. For me, if the club had raised another share issue to raise money to invest in the club I wouldn't have had much spare cash upfront to buy many shares. I am quite happy however to sign up to pay £10 per month for the next 10 years (at least) to help the CIC takeover the majority shareholding so that the local community (or those interested in St Mirren from the Renfrewshire area and beyond) can have a major say in how the club is run, and I also think the CIC will in time create a strong network of people and groups in Renfrewshire who will bring people through the doors of St Mirren Park 7 days a week and in time strengthen and increase our fanbase in the area and that as that happens our revenue will increase and allow for a larger playing budget than we currently have.

[St. Sid]

first point, you have spent months throwing insults and generally talking shite when anyone with a concern asked a question on here. as someone pointed out a long time ago, your posting style will have put off alot of fans from persuing genuine concerns on here. im not talking about the obvious trolls but posters back at the begining were steamrollered by yourself into not asking questions.

secondly, i have no idea how it works and yes, ive signed up. i was put off raising any points by posters like you who rubbished everyones concerns and kept bleating on about how good it was to be a buddy etc.

i am simply putting my trust into this venture in the absence of any other credible alternative. the board wants out and the club will stagnate under their leadership, they have said as much.

personally i have found the whole public consultation a little disappointing and i have spoke to many st.mirren fans who dont use the net and they havent a clue about the whole thing. many didnt even know about the £10 membership etc. save for one flyer handed out a few weeks back has the CIC publicised this enough to the punters in the stands?

im not replying to any of the middle bit of your post, gobshite.

Then you are basically in complete agreement with me ya rager.

The project has been delayed due to the due dilligence being carried out by the funding organisations. This has taken them many months and the CIC is just about there. The funding organisations have an infrastucture in place to protect their interests. The fans members at the moment are a rabble - and as you point out above are pretty much dependent on a few Internet aliases and whatever information could be garnered through nothing mkore than gossip - including the ultra negative stuff going around at the time. The negative campaign appears to have disappeared.

Now is the time for us to try and put in place our own structure to see us through the next phase, which will be understanding the detail. At the moment that process is entirely being driven by the CIC guys. The funders obviously picked up on a few things during their due dilligence so the CIC guys didn't nail the contracts first time. That is neither a surprise or a concern. However, the concern is that there are likely to be areas in the constitution were due dilligence will throw up points for discussion. With no structure for a review of the constitution or to negotiate how the CIC will operate from a fans perspective we will pretty much be a rabble as we have been to date. I had assumed that SMiSA were involved in that process; however that now doesn't look to be the case.

The fans need some structure in place to see us through the formation of the CIC and its constitution and also through the interim period. We are significant finacial players in the project and without us ratifying the constitution the CIC cannot go ahead. You can bury your head and hope the CIC is going to be a 1960's love in or you can get your finger out your arse and get people together to form a fans structure to cover the interim period.

Once that constitution is voted through the fans will be stuck with it.

[Guest somner9]

Then you are basically in complete agreement with me ya rager.

The project has been delayed due to the due dilligence being carried out by the funding organisations. This has taken them many months and the CIC is just about there. The funding organisations have an infrastucture in place to protect their interests. The fans members at the moment are a rabble - and as you point out above are pretty much dependent on a few Internet aliases and whatever information could be garnered through nothing mkore than gossip - including the ultra negative stuff going around at the time. The negative campaign appears to have disappeared.

Now is the time for us to try and put in place our own structure to see us through the next phase, which will be understanding the detail. At the moment that process is entirely being driven by the CIC guys. The funders obviously picked up on a few things during their due dilligence so the CIC guys didn't nail the contracts first time. That is neither a surprise or a concern. However, the concern is that there are likely to be areas in the constitution were due dilligence will throw up points for discussion. With no structure for a review of the constitution or to negotiate how the CIC will operate from a fans perspective we will pretty much be a rabble as we have been to date. I had assumed that SMiSA were involved in that process; however that now doesn't look to be the case.

The fans need some structure in place to see us through the formation of the CIC and its constitution and also through the interim period. We are significant finacial players in the project and without us ratifying the constitution the CIC cannot go ahead. You can bury your head and hope the CIC is going to be a 1960's love in or you can get your finger out your arse and get people together to form a fans structure to cover the interim period.

Once that constitution is voted through the fans will be stuck with it.

Very similar to what I have said recently although posters who say they are pro CiC berated me as someone trying to de-stabilise it by suggesting that all the fans groups (pro cic) should get together now and shape THEIR constitution....

It would appear anectdotally that some pledgers are just pledging because there isn't an alternative and they'll swallow whtever RA and all the community groups say, and let them run the club. whilst the pledgers pick up the tab.

I see why i get pelters, for having an opinion

[St. Sid]

Just back from Morrisons. The posts today have at least got a couple of Buds chatting about the CIC again. Although there were some none to polite comments relating to my good character.

I am happy to take the odd pelter from dafties like Evil_Panda if it means that people get there heads together for the upcoming task of ensuring that the constitution and the operational processes have positive input from the wider support and are not just streamrollered through by handpicked bully buds.

Now in saying that I am quietly confident that the constitution and operating practices will be fine; however until we know that for a fact we should be ready to fight our corner. The first act in fighting that corner is to have a reasonable period of time to digest and discuss the constitution before we are forced to vote on it one way of another. I also think that the fans should have a right of veto on any of the handpicked sychophants trying to breenj some sausage rolls prior to the election.

[Evil_Panda]

Just back from Morrisons. The posts today have at least got a couple of Buds chatting about the CIC again. Although there were some none to polite comments relating to my good character.

I am happy to take the odd pelter from dafties like Evil_Panda if it means that people get there heads together for the upcoming task of ensuring that the constitution and the operational processes have positive input from the wider support and are not just streamrollered through by handpicked bully buds.

Now in saying that I am quietly confident that the constitution and operating practices will be fine; however until we know that for a fact we should be ready to fight our corner. The first act in fighting that corner is to have a reasonable period of time to digest and discuss the constitution before we are forced to vote on it one way of another. I also think that the fans should have a right of veto on any of the handpicked sychophants trying to breenj some sausage rolls prior to the election.

gobshite fud.

i mentioned weeks ago on another thread that this isnt the place to do it, far too many aliases with too much time on their hands to cause mischief. likewise a one off meeting in a boozer isnt a wise option.

i pointed out a while ago that we should be holding these discussions on the 10'000 hours facebook group, at least there the majority of people are accountable for their comments as they post under a real name and not under some untraceable aliase. after we have established the genuine fans from the fuds then a meeting of the support could have been arranged.

we wouldnt have to have listened to people like yul (is he really gordon Scott as people have mentioned??) can you imagine if that turned out to be the case? all part of the problem of discussing this on B&WA.

its not too late though, get onto 10000 hours facebook group and get organised.

in

[Stuart Dickson]

I'm just surprised that anyone thinks that St Mirren fans on B&W Army would be clever enough to be able to write anything never mind a constitution. Certainly some of the barely literate pish I've read on here since joining doesn't fill me with confidence.

To be perfectly honest I'm quite happy that the Community Groups, who are used to writing constitutions, would have the biggest input as I think they are the most important element of the CIC. I also know that Constitutions can be amended or even re-written quite easily and adopted at any AGM or EGM. I would also imagine that in the case of an organisation like 10000hours it's very likely that the constitution will have to be amended every year simply because of the nature of the membership cycles

Edited September 9, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[St. Sid]

gobshite fud.

i mentioned weeks ago on another thread that this isnt the place to do it, far too many aliases with too much time on their hands to cause mischief. likewise a one off meeting in a boozer isnt a wise option.

i pointed out a while ago that we should be holding these discussions on the 10'000 hours facebook group, at least there the majority of people are accountable for their comments as they post under a real name and not under some untraceable aliase. after we have established the genuine fans from the fuds then a meeting of the support could have been arranged.

we wouldnt have to have listened to people like yul (is he really gordon Scott as people have mentioned??) can you imagine if that turned out to be the case? all part of the problem of discussing this on B&WA.

its not too late though, get onto 10000 hours facebook group and get organised.

in

Facebook = Reality for Evil_Panda.

You cannot continue to operate under this level of paranoia. The CIC is not about a chosen few pepared to pay their tenner. It is first and foremost about St Mirren Football Club. The Yul characters may have been unhelpful, but not as unhelpful as the current attempts to divide the support. The support is a single entity irrespective of whether they support the CIC or not. That should be the f'k'n mission statement for the fans. Not lets try and meet and keep certain St Mirren supporters out because we don't agree with their views.

The use of the Internet has already limited the number of Saints fans able to debate the CIC to any degree. Moving it to an even more restricted group such as Facebook is hardly going to help.

The idea that this meeting can in some way be restricted is also daft. The only people that know who the signed up potential members are is the CIC proposers. Facebook is not going to magic up knowledge of who has agreed to pay their tenner.

The meeting should be open to anyone with an interest in the future of St Mirren. The CIC is supposed to deliver greater transparency than we have ever had and yet all we have at the moment is secrecy, snippets of high level information and fans looking to exclude others from the discussion.

I am starting to agree with StuDick that we are going to be very short of people capable of representing the fans - not just the members.

[spirit of 77]

I'm just surprised that anyone thinks that St Mirren fans on B&W Army would be clever enough to be able to write anything never mind a constitution. Certainly some of the barely literate pish I've read on here since joining doesn't fill me with confidence.

To be perfectly honest I'm quite happy that the Community Groups, who are used to writing constitutions, would have the biggest input as I think they are the most important element of the CIC. I also know that Constitutions can be amended or even re-written quite easily and adopted at any AGM or EGM. I would also imagine that in the case of an organisation like 10000hours it's very likely that the constitution will have to be amended every year simply because of the nature of the membership cycles

I know several saints fans with the intellect and credibiliy to write a constitution. Unfortunately they are all too busy running businesses or pursuing successful careers to get involved in a CIC venture and have even less time to spunk away on co-ramblings with internet fantasists.

But you and Sid can knock yourself out (or knock one out, if you prefer) on at least one count.

[St. Sid]

I know several saints fans with the intellect and credibiliy to write a constitution. Unfortunately they are all too busy running businesses or pursuing successful careers to get involved in a CIC venture.

What a pointless post. You know people capable but they don't want to get involved. I know capable people too, but they also don't want to be involved. Does that not pretty much prove the fat pipefitters point.

[animal]

What a pointless post. You know people capable but they don't want to get involved. I know capable people too, but they also don't want to be involved. Does that not pretty much prove the fat pipefitters point.

Glad you are now starting to see the point Mr. Sid. Few 'capable' people would want anything to do with the detailed setup of the 100000000000 hours CIC. Few people with any real business experience would want to help promote a scheme where supporters are encouraged to pay off the debts run up by a third party so that the third party (Mr. A) can get contol of the Club.

Perhaps Mr. McGeoch could give you a hand. :D

[St. Sid]

Glad you are now starting to see the point Mr. Sid. Few 'capable' people would want anything to do with the detailed setup of the 100000000000 hours CIC.

Laughing and joking aside I do think that has to be a serious concern that is answered by the CIC and it supporters sooner rather than later. So far we have GLS and TsuMirren that have declared themselves as standing for election - with PozBaird behaving like a shy virgin about it......that gives us a 33% hit rate in terms of capable candidates.

[The Feegie Saint]

A wee change from being a " Snitch " ?

Edited September 11, 2011 by The Feegie Saint

[St. Sid]

A wee change from being a " Snitch " ?

Who grassed you up Bud? Was it that fandan from Dalgety Bay?

[TsuMirren]

So far we have GLS and TsuMirren that have declared themselves as standing for election - with PozBaird behaving like a shy virgin about it......that gives us a 33% hit rate in terms of capable candidates.

Oh you cheeky monkey!

[The Feegie Saint]

Who grassed you up Bud? Was it that fandan from Dalgety Bay?

Nah ! It was Bertie Bubbledick ?

[spirit of 77]

Who grassed you up Bud? Was it that fandan from Dalgety Bay?

Touched a nerve or what?

Will you be changing your user name to something that covers all the aliases? Like vicious dicko perhaps?

The way the two of you seem to disagree but always seem to set each other up nicely for the next exchange certainly raises a few suspicions.

You can call me names on here all you like, the fact that i know you would never do it to my face speaks volumes of your self-styled rampaging wit.

If it wasn't so very predictable, i'd brace myself for the next barrage of petty insults and cheeky wee emoticons. However there is that thing known as real life to get on with.

[St. Sid]

Touched a nerve or what?

Will you be changing your user name to something that covers all the aliases? Like vicious dicko perhaps?

The way the two of you seem to disagree but always seem to set each other up nicely for the next exchange certainly raises a few suspicions.

You can call me names on here all you like, the fact that i know you would never do it to my face speaks volumes of your self-styled rampaging wit.

If it wasn't so very predictable, i'd brace myself for the next barrage of petty insults and cheeky wee emoticons. However there is that thing known as real life to get on with.

Dalgety Bay is a shitehole.