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Recent 10000Hrs Cic Email Re Meeting & Key Points


ktf
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(still not happy about the £2m price though).

I will put my house on the CIC not going through unless the 2 million figure is brought down.

With the selling price at 2 million the numbers needed to join the CIC will not be met, it will not happen just look at the history of the share issue.

Maybe something can be done with the council after all the club will become a bigger part of the community.

Every seat for one home game needs a carefully worded flyer followed by RA going onto the pitch with a microphone to back that up with a plea to come join the CIC.

It’s the last throw of the dice. The forum is like a dog chasing a tail never ending going over the same old , the same old.

The flyer is in hand. Personally speaking, if RA thought about addressing the support with a microphone on the park, I think it would be a terrible idea, the cringe factor would be off the scale. I don't mean RA personally, just anyone doing that. No, no, no. Make your case by all means, but stay aff' the park!

Edited by pozbaird
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The flyer is in hand. Personally speaking, if RA thought about addressing the support with a microphone on the park, I think it would be a terrible idea, the cringe factor would be off the scale. I don't mean RA personally, just anyone doing that. No, no, no. Make your case by all means, but stay aff' the park!

now is not the time for faint of heart, now is the time to shine, and tell everyone whats in it for them!

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The flyer is in hand. Personally speaking, if RA thought about addressing the support with a microphone on the park, I think it would be a terrible idea, the cringe factor would be off the scale. I don't mean RA personally, just anyone doing that. No, no, no. Make your case by all means, but stay aff' the park!

Don’t agree with you Poz. As I wrote this is the last throw of the dice.

RA in support of the flyers needs to stand at the side of the pitch at half time helped along and questioned by our DJ in a professional manner.

( pre scripted )

Richard needs to grow a pair and be bold the PR machine needs to go into overdrive

I heard a certain Alex Ferguson one Saturday morning on a tannoy speaker pleading with people to come to Love Street to support (THEIR) local team in Chapelhill Road Hunterhill. It was far from cringy and it worked. Where is Alex Ferguson now ?

Having a follow up on a microphone to the flyers is essential. The attention of the fans is needed.. This is the last throw of the dice.

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Don’t agree with you Poz. As I wrote this is the last throw of the dice.

RA in support of the flyers needs to stand at the side of the pitch at half time helped along and questioned by our DJ in a professional manner.

( pre scripted )

Richard needs to grow a pair and be bold the PR machine needs to go into overdrive

I heard a certain Alex Ferguson one Saturday morning on a tannoy speaker pleading with people to come to Love Street to support (THEIR) local team in Chapelhill Road Hunterhill. It was far from cringy and it worked. Where is Alex Ferguson now ?

Having a follow up on a microphone to the flyers is essential. The attention of the fans is needed.. This is the last throw of the dice.

If a director wanders out onto the park (any director), I'm off for a steak 'n' gravy pie. phone.gif

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Don’t agree with you Poz. As I wrote this is the last throw of the dice.

RA in support of the flyers needs to stand at the side of the pitch at half time helped along and questioned by our DJ in a professional manner.

( pre scripted )

Richard needs to grow a pair and be bold the PR machine needs to go into overdrive

I heard a certain Alex Ferguson one Saturday morning on a tannoy speaker pleading with people to come to Love Street to support (THEIR) local team in Chapelhill Road Hunterhill. It was far from cringy and it worked. Where is Alex Ferguson now ?

Having a follow up on a microphone to the flyers is essential. The attention of the fans is needed.. This is the last throw of the dice.

That just won't happen LS. 10000hrs is not St Mirren, it is a company trying to buy St Mirren. It'd be uncompetitive and just wrong for 10000hrs to acquiesce the customers of the company it is trying to take over whilst they are a captive audience and twist their arm (as it would be seen) to support the bid.

It can't be done this way.

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(still not happy about the £2m price though).

I will put my house on the CIC not going through unless the 2 million figure is brought down.

With the selling price at 2 million the numbers needed to join the CIC will not be met, it will not happen just look at the history of the share issue.

Maybe something can be done with the council after all the club will become a bigger part of the community.

Every seat for one home game needs a carefully worded flyer followed by RA going onto the pitch with a microphone to back that up with a plea to come join the CIC.

It’s the last throw of the dice. The forum is like a dog chasing a tail never ending going over the same old , the same old.

I can see where your coming from, but my view differs here:

  • The previous share issues were indeed well undersubscribed because the MINIMUM buy was £200 up front with no payment plans. Many Buddies could simply not afford it, although there were pleas to lower the minimum. This proposal (at present) is a minimum of £10 per month until the CIC debt is payed off. Very affordable for many Buddies who missed outb last time.

  • If an offer is made to the Consortium from their preffered bidder (the CIC) they would have to look closely and see if it was a FAIR offer, e.g. They would probably reject £1.3m but may well bite your hand off for offer of... say... £1.9m. An offer somewhere inbetween may be very tempting...

I believe the Consortium have the best interests of SMFC at heart, and they see a CIC/Co-op bid as the best thing. They will not want to be seen as greedy and would want to leave a legacy when they finally do retire.

Of course they could just gift the shares (and so could we 'other 48%' )to a fan run CIC/Co-op, for naming Stands after them.......but that may be a step too far for them.

Edited by Vambo57
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It doesn't actually matter what REA is buddiecool - it isn't him that is buying the major shareholding in the club. It is the fans. And the new proposal is even better than the last one as it is a straight shoot one member one vote irrespective of how many shares you own - and the use of the word "own" is pretty important too.

This is now a straight question........do you want the fans to control the club or do you want a fat cat stranger who doesn't care about St Mirren to own it through raising debt against the asset and paying the debt off using funds directly from the clubs income?

Any spurious doubt has been removed. This is all about whether the supporters want to take control of the club or not. We have the funds to do it and a BoD keen to make it happen. It should be the easiest decision we ever make.

what asset, the club has few assets and none of them have any value as security, no one wouldlend as the club's income is insufficient to cover the paymrnents. Please make valid points and avoid the scaremongering

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he is aiming to get as many people involved ASAP. Of course, this makes financial sense from the perspective of the CIC#2 bid, but I don't see anyone else (bar Mo'well) trying to get as many of the fans involved in a football club. Nobody is having an emotional "gun" pointed at their head to join up either (ie. SMFC are not in trouble). I also understand why they didn't press ahead with mass recruitment in the past (ie. if something went wrong - it did - then it would only magnify the already poor issues of communicating with fans).

I'm a cynical auld bassa, not quite in Shull's league, but getting there. I've heard all the pros & cons, and I've seen the positive/gutsy reaction from the CIC to initial failure. This is an opportunity that would be wasted if we look back in later years. RA may not be a Saints Man, but what he is trying to do is something unique that would clearly have a large number of benefits to St.Mirren FC and its fans.....and that's from someone who has had more than his fair share of queries about the whole affair (still not happy about the £2m price though).

.

Great post Fras. Its not very often we get sensible, reasoned arguement that doesnt decay into personal insult.

You sound like the kind of chap that 10000hrs need standind tall at the turnstiles handing out leaflets and educating the supporters who lean more toward apathy!

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Great post Fras. Its not very often we get sensible, reasoned arguement that doesnt decay into personal insult.

You sound like the kind of chap that 10000hrs need standind tall at the turnstiles handing out leaflets and educating the supporters who lean more toward apathy!

Do it! You know it makes sense!

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i agree with lochwinnoch saint, i do not think enough people will come forward to be members, if they were interested why did they not pledge for the original cic ? i looked at the original cic and didn't fancy it, from what i've read on here i will take a lot of persuasion that #2 will work, mainly because if enough people did come forward and become members then meetings would be overcrowded, with so many people having so many different opinions it could turn into mayhem and farce, i have other concerns but do not wish to get into endless debate about them, i will stick to investing in property, i will read and perhaps comment on the subject but will not subscribe to it for the time being

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Great post Fras. Its not very often we get sensible, reasoned arguement that doesnt decay into personal insult.

You sound like the kind of chap that 10000hrs need standind tall at the turnstiles handing out leaflets and educating the supporters who lean more toward apathy!

I'd be useless. Too fond of chatting and generally arsing around - I'd probably manage about 3 flyers. I'll stick to assisting in other ways from a remote distance.

Mr.Tickle

Edited by Big Fras
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i agree with lochwinnoch saint, i do not think enough people will come forward to be members, if they were interested why did they not pledge for the original cic ? i looked at the original cic and didn't fancy it, from what i've read on here i will take a lot of persuasion that #2 will work, mainly because if enough people did come forward and become members then meetings would be overcrowded, with so many people having so many different opinions it could turn into mayhem and farce, i have other concerns but do not wish to get into endless debate about them, i will stick to investing in property, i will read and perhaps comment on the subject but will not subscribe to it for the time being

10000hrs will make a bid for the club.....anywhere between £1.5 million and £2 million. If we stay at the numbers as they are it will be £1.5 million and likely rejected. If we can get it up a bit then maybe £1.7 millon will do.

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That would be all very well if the debt hadn't increased in the twelve months between this and last year's accounts and who knows what it will be next year - I'd be willing to bet it'll not be any less.

The outstanding bills this month will all have been paid in 12 months time and replaced with outstanding bills then! It really doesn't matter at what snapshot you look at the books, you will always have a large wad of bills which you have been invoiced for but not yet paid!

Any transfer fees recieved during the upcoming transfer window should be treated as a windfall and used to reduce the club's debt. The manager would have the freed up wages to play with.

Any transfer income would automatically reduce the debt. You'd have cash in the bank and outstanding bills to paid which would netted off against each other to reduce net current liabilities.

You can use that cash in the bank to pay those bills as they become due and use current income to increase the wage budget or you can use the that cash to increase the wage budget..... it really doesn't make any difference and it won't read any differently in the Report & Accounts..... and you'll eat up that windfall just the same and still have the same current liabilities in a year's time!

You can stick £10 million cash in the bank and you'll still have the unpaid bills at any snapshot in time!

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The outstanding bills this month will all have been paid in 12 months time and replaced with outstanding bills then! It really doesn't matter at what snapshot you look at the books, you will always have a large wad of bills which you have been invoiced for but not yet paid!

Any transfer income would automatically reduce the debt. You'd have cash in the bank and outstanding bills to paid which would netted off against each other to reduce net current liabilities.

You can use that cash in the bank to pay those bills as they become due and use current income to increase the wage budget or you can use the that cash to increase the wage budget..... it really doesn't make any difference and it won't read any differently in the Report & Accounts..... and you'll eat up that windfall just the same and still have the same current liabilities in a year's time!

You can stick £10 million cash in the bank and you'll still have the unpaid bills at any snapshot in time!

We've gone a bit off-topic but here goes, the money we owe is greater than the money we are owed therefore we are in net debt. The clubs net current debt increased by £95,000 at season end 2011 compared to twelve months earlier. Trade creditors which I agree we'll always have actually remained pretty much the same over this period.

The major increase in debt (£115,000 over the last twelve months) was actually to Social Security & VAT - my opinion is just because you can run up debt to these organizations doesn't mean you should. Any hypothetical transfer fee received in January should be used to reduce this.

******************************************************

Over the past three years the financial prudence the BoD showed in the first decade or so of their tenure seems to have slipped slightly Wages/Turnover ratio has been 76% (2008/09), 76% (2009/10) and 70% (2010/11) - the wage budget needs to be cut still further.

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We've gone a bit off-topic but here goes, the money we owe is greater than the money we are owed therefore we are in net debt. The clubs net current debt increased by £95,000 at season end 2011 compared to twelve months earlier. Trade creditors which I agree we'll always have actually remained pretty much the same over this period.

The major increase in debt (£115,000 over the last twelve months) was actually to Social Security & VAT - my opinion is just because you can run up debt to these organizations doesn't mean you should. Any hypothetical transfer fee received in January should be used to reduce this.

But you are always going to owe money to social security & VAT at any snapshot in time from a Report & Accounts - even if you have £10 million cash in the bank. You are always going to have trade creditors.

If you get in cash from a transfer fee and put it in the bank then sure, it'll reduce the net debt on paper....... but we'll still owe exactly the same amounts of money to trade creditors and social security & VAT!

I think the real issue here is that whether we should have some cash in the bank for a "rainy day"

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But you are always going to owe money to social security & VAT at any snapshot in time from a Report & Accounts - even if you have £10 million cash in the bank. You are always going to have trade creditors.

Check the 2009 Report we didn't owe any money to the VAT at that point so it seems to me that the money we owe to them at the end of May 2011 is a matter of choice. Also it seems strange to me that while wages have fallen money owed to Social Security has risen.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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Check the 2009 Report we didn't owe any money to the VAT at that point so it seems to me that the money we owe to them at the end of May 2011 is a matter of choice.

VAT is collected quarterly as far as I'm aware. Therefore, unless the VAT collection day in 2009 coincided with the exact day of the Report & Accounts then the club must have owed VAT.

Also it seems strange to me that while wages have fallen money owed to Social Security has risen.

Its a snapshot in time. The wages the previous season were higher because of bonuses received (eg reaching the League Cup Final). The actual wages paid and therefore the social security owed at the snapshot in time at the Report & Accounts won't necessarily correlate with the total wages over an entire season. Also, we don't know hoe the wages of the previous management were treated in the accounts, when it was paid or when the social security on it were due.

As I keep saying, any business will always have outstanding bills to be paid at the date of a Report & Accounts. Our net current liabilities were only about 10% of turnover. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me.

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VAT is collected quarterly as far as I'm aware. Therefore, unless the VAT collection day in 2009 coincided with the exact day of the Report & Accounts then the club must have owed VAT.

Now I understand the club will pay for many of the goods and services it receives in arrears, that's why I'm not concerned about the money owed to Trade Creditors which has remained broadly static over the three years mentioned. What I don't understand is why if VAT is collected at regular intervals and the club's Financial Report is published on the same day each year there should be such variations.

Its a snapshot in time. The wages the previous season were higher because of bonuses received (eg reaching the League Cup Final). The actual wages paid and therefore the social security owed at the snapshot in time at the Report & Accounts won't necessarily correlate with the total wages over an entire season. Also, we don't know hoe the wages of the previous management were treated in the accounts, when it was paid or when the social security on it were due.

Perhaps..................

As I keep saying, any business will always have outstanding bills to be paid at the date of a Report & Accounts. Our net current liabilities were only about 10% of turnover. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me.

Yup, but as I have said our Net Debt rose over the last twelve months and it's difficult to see it reducing this year without the benefit of either a transfer windfall or a good cup run. The real difficulty would come if and when the club was relegated and the debt to turnover ratio would double.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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The real difficulty would come if and when the club was relegated and the debt to turnover ratio would double.

Only temporarily. Wages take up over 70% of the turnover as you have mentioned. Upon relegation the net current liabilities would fall as well as the turnover.

Unless of course any of the staff have recently been unnecessarily and prematurely tied up for the next couple of years on a lucrative contract..... whistling.gif

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Only temporarily. Wages take up over 70% of the turnover as you have mentioned. Upon relegation the net current liabilities would fall as well as the turnover.

Unless of course any of the staff have recently been unnecessarily and prematurely tied up for the next couple of years on a lucrative contract..... whistling.gif

Only temporarily, how so - the debt would be the same (maybe higher after a relegation season) whereas our Turnover in Division 1 would be roughly halved.

i guess what worries me is the case of Falkirk last season - now some of the information out there is confusing but to the best of my knowledge when they were relegated at season end 2010 they owed Social Security £121,000 and VAT £26,000 - both figures being less than what we owed at the end of last season, yet by the end of January 2011 Falkirk were being threatened with being wound up by HMRC. I know it was a case of one arm not knowing what the other was doing, but still.......................

PS - Falkirk also had no bank debt.

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