The Referendum Thread

[salmonbuddie]

It's not income but it's still worth a bob or two in tax revenue

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-oil-and-gas-exports-worth-30-billion-1-3195346

And that's from the well known independence supporting Hootsmon.

[Lex]

Won't surprise the forum to learn that the odds of yes have drifted yet further on the back of the kicking the yes campaign got when the IFS report was issued. You can now get 11/2.

The odds of no meanwhile have came in to an eye watering 1/10 on with William Hills.

I've always loved an underdog, and it's getting to the stage now I'm almost rooting for the yes campaign out of pity. I know they're going to lose, but come on, stick in there, make a game of it at least!

[faraway saint]

Ну вот не знаю как заниматься сексом а столько прикольных девчонок, а я не могу не умею ну как кто ни будь поможет???? ПОЖАЛУЙСТА!!!!

Aye, yer right enough mate.

He says Stu does talk some amount of shite.

Edited November 22, 2013 by faraway saint

[Stuart Dickson]

Aye, yer right enough mate.

He says Stu does talk some amount of shite.

That's funny - when I put the comment into Google Translate it says something about Oaksoft not knowing how to have sex with girls.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's funny - when I put the comment into Google Translate it says something about Oaksoft not knowing how to have sex with girls.

I'd be more concerned if he wanted to...

[salmonbuddie]

Double post (sorry)

Edited November 22, 2013 by salmonbuddie

[salmonbuddie]

Ну вот не знаю как заниматься сексом а столько прикольных девчонок, а я не могу не умею ну как кто ни будь поможет????

ПОЖАЛУЙСТА!!!!

Easy for you to say.....

[Stuart Dickson]

Hopefully see you next weekend then, as i'm at Lanarkshire Indoor Bowling next Saturday and Sunday.

I've just remembered that you were supposed to be coming down to film me at Wishaw Sports Centre on Sunday? What happened?

[faraway saint]

Todays the day we all hear how Scotland will flourish under independence.

It's a document containing a few hundred pages of information.

Can't wait for Stu & Oakey to pick the exciting bits to help us make our decision next year.

[bud77]

Todays the day we all hear how Scotland will flourish under independence.

It's a document containing a few hundred pages of information.

Can't wait for Stu & Oakey to pick the exciting bits to help us make our decision next year.

It's not information, information is based on fact. The white paper is a view of how independence could affect us but quite a lot of the items in it would have to be negotiated. Unless of course you totally believe the SNP's trust us everything will be wonderful stance.

[faraway saint]

It's not information, information is based on fact. The white paper is a view of how independence could affect us but quite a lot of the items in it would have to be negotiated. Unless of course you totally believe the SNP's trust us everything will be wonderful stance.

Information is based on fact?

Really?

[Lanarkshire_Bud]

Salmond and Sturgeon played an absolute blinder.

Darling was absolutely raging.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Salmond and Sturgeon played an absolute blinder.

Darling was absolutely raging.

The seething from the little Englunders on the BBC news comments area is even worse - I don't think I have ever witnessed such blatant racism on any public forum (let alone the BBC) before. Why are the English so wound up at the mere thought of Scotland breaking away ?

[bud77]

Information is based on fact?

Really?

Well considering the white paper is all based on assumptions that the UK, EU, UN, NATO etc will all bow to the wishes of the Scottish people it is hardly based on fact. It is nothing more than an SNP manifesto and Sturgeon's comment about free child care is an example of how the SNP have been guilty of failing to govern Scotland since the referendum was announced - free child care ? we could but we'll only do it if we're independent. Vote for no evictions for rent arrears due to the bedroom tax ? No, but we will abolish the bedroom tax if we're independent.

[salmonbuddie]

How else are you supposed to forecast? Each of the assumptions has a reasoned argument underpinning it, it's reasonable to proceed on the basis that the assumption will hold true.

Can't wait to see BT's equivalent and the assumptions they make. Oh that's right, they're not doing one.

[Drew]

I haven't had a chance to digest a great deal from the White Paper aside from catching a few points on the wireless news at lunchtime.

It shouldn't need to be said that much of what it sets out is a portfolio that pulls together the current Government's notion of what would be possible and desirable in an independent Scotland. That's entirely reasonable and predictable, and why anyone would have expected anything other than that is beyond me.

It actually quite refreshing to hear what some people genuinely believe we CAN achieve as a nation, as opposed to the negativity that has generally driven the NO campaign. I'm sick of the emphasis being placed on what people believe we CAN'T do.

[oaksoft]

I haven't had a chance to digest a great deal from the White Paper aside from catching a few points on the wireless news at lunchtime.

It shouldn't need to be said that much of what it sets out is a portfolio that pulls together the current Government's notion of what would be possible and desirable in an independent Scotland. That's entirely reasonable and predictable, and why anyone would have expected anything other than that is beyond me.

It actually quite refreshing to hear what some people genuinely believe we CAN achieve as a nation, as opposed to the negativity that has generally driven the NO campaign. I'm sick of the emphasis being placed on what people believe we CAN'T do.

Haven't had a chance to read anything yet other than some headline bits but I agree with this.

People like to be shown a sunny vision.

BT have a real problem here which will grow as we get nearer the vote because they simply have nothing to counter the Yes campaign with other than threats and negativity. Their only option is to do exactly what the Yes campaign have just done and release their own vision but they won't do it.

The SNP have some very clever stuff in there which will appeal to the average joe. BT are still messing around arguing about EU membership, NATO and the pound - something which almost nobody is interested in.

I did hear about Darling's "Jock-umentary" comment. That's the sort of comment which looks witty and informed on one hand but is read as deeply offensive when actually spoken. He may come to regret using such a patronising phrase.

[bud77]

How else are you supposed to forecast? Each of the assumptions has a reasoned argument underpinning it, it's reasonable to proceed on the basis that the assumption will hold true.

Can't wait to see BT's equivalent and the assumptions they make. Oh that's right, they're not doing one.

So we'll keep the pound and might even get a say in the Bank of England. What happens when the UK needs to increase interest rates but it's not in Scotland's best interests - Scotland will be outvoted.

We'll increase immigration to make sure that pensions can be paid, except the UK are clamping down on immigration. Will someone who lives in Gretna and works in Carlise have to go through passport control twice a day? What happens to my pension if these immigrants fail to come ?

The biggest assumption of all is that the SNP would form the first independent government, they have been failing to govern since the referendum was announced as clearly stated by Nicola Sturgeon - 'we could have free child care now except the revenue would go to the UK'.

What happens if NATO turn round and say 'if you want to be a member you have to keep trident' ?

If taxes are not going to increase how will the set up costs be met ? Loans ? At what interest rate ? For how long ?

What happens if the EU turn round and say 'You can still be a member but here's the conditions' ?

Why should we keep a foreigner as head of state ?

Why is the most secretive (check out the number of times they have refused freedom of information requests, inclusing the tale of Alex's tartan trews) assembly since it began not introducing a second elected chamber to hold the government to account ?

[Drew]

That's the sort of comment which looks witty and informed on one hand but is read as deeply offensive when actually spoken. He may come to regret using such a patronising phrase.

I think this is very likely to be an issue for the NO campaign. They will need to tread carefully if they are to avoid alienating even those who are currently indifferent or wavering.

[Drew]

So we'll keep the pound and might even get a say in the Bank of England. What happens when the UK needs to increase interest rates but it's not in Scotland's best interests - Scotland will be outvoted.

We'll increase immigration to make sure that pensions can be paid, except the UK are clamping down on immigration. Will someone who lives in Gretna and works in Carlise have to go through passport control twice a day? What happens to my pension if these immigrants fail to come ?

The biggest assumption of all is that the SNP would form the first independent government, they have been failing to govern since the referendum was announced as clearly stated by Nicola Sturgeon - 'we could have free child care now except the revenue would go to the UK'.

What happens if NATO turn round and say 'if you want to be a member you have to keep trident' ?

If taxes are not going to increase how will the set up costs be met ? Loans ? At what interest rate ? For how long ?

What happens if the EU turn round and say 'You can still be a member but here's the conditions' ?

Why should we keep a foreigner as head of state ?

Why is the most secretive (check out the number of times they have refused freedom of information requests, inclusing the tale of Alex's tartan trews) assembly since it began not introducing a second elected chamber to hold the government to account ?

A hell of a lot of hand-wringing whatiffery in there.

I think, as a nation, its about time we collectively grew a set.

[Stuart Dickson]

How else are you supposed to forecast? Each of the assumptions has a reasoned argument underpinning it, it's reasonable to proceed on the basis that the assumption will hold true.

Can't wait to see BT's equivalent and the assumptions they make. Oh that's right, they're not doing one.

How can you claim there is a reasoned argument underpinning it when you haven't negotiated a currency, a place in the EU, NATO or any of the other major planks of Independence? Who was it on here who claimed that a major plank of propaganda is to keep repeating the same old lie in order that people start believing it? Isn't that exactly what the SNP are doing with their assumptions?

Apparently the white paper has the same number of pages as Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I'm finding Jakey Rowlings version to be much more factual if I'm honest. Even the idea of a wizard flying around on a broomstick chasing a golden snitch in a game of Quidditch sounds more grounded in reality than some of this pish.....

[Stuart Dickson]

A hell of a lot of hand-wringing whatiffery in there.

I think, as a nation, its about time we collectively grew a set.

Do you not think it would have been wise to have negotiated a position on what money you are going to use before issuing a supposed fact based white paper which makes an assumption that many in power at Westminster deny flatly will happen.

[Drew]

Do you not think it would have been wise to have negotiated a position on what money you are going to use before issuing a supposed fact based white paper which makes an assumption that many in power at Westminster deny flatly will happen.

That's just silly, Stuart.

It was the Westminster government who refused to enter into any such negotiations. They've stated that it would be a prohibitive drain on time and resources negotiating something that might not even materialise in any event. FWIW, I can see their point on that one. That said, what would you have suggested the Scottish government do in their position?

Oh, and lest you forget, the currency of politics isn't facts. It is all about spin and agenda.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Drew

[Stuart Dickson]

That's just silly, Stuart.

It was the Westminster government who refused to enter into any such negotiations. They've stated that it would be a prohibitive drain on time and resources negotiating something that might not even materialise in any event. FWIW, I can see their point on that one. That said, what would you have suggested the Scottish government do in their position?

Oh, and lest you forget, the currency of politics isn't facts. It is all about spin and agenda.

Well your last sentence is certainly true particularly with this White Paper. It's about as relevant today as my proposal to scrap the NHS, State Education and the Welfare State. Maybe I should publish a White Paper.

If the SNP can't get Westminister to entertain them with talks about using Sterling, then surely the prudent thing to do would be to seek alternative options like having our own currency. What is it about real Independence that has the SNP diving for cover?

[salmonbuddie]

Which part of "we don't need permission from anyone to keep using Sterling" isn't clear?