The Referendum Thread

[Phil McCracken]

Is anyone having trouble comparing 9% representation with 100% representation and working out which is the bigger number?

After indepedence we'll have 0% say in the running of our currency and the setting of interest rates.

Is anyone having trouble comparing 9% representation with 0% representation and working out which is the bigger number?

[beyond our ken]

This is about something a little more palpable than council elections. It's about the potential demise of a nation. Not so easily dismissed....

So your response indicates that it IS only Nationalists that don't want ALL Scots to participate in a vote that impacts on all their futures.

That does seem Nationalist... In the political sense.

You are now part of the diaspora, we love the sentiment you have for Scotland and your concern for it's future, just as we love my cousin in Toronto's concerns. You may well make & spend a few bob here, but unfortunately you don't have a Scottish address, your pension fund might invest in shale gas companies in the states but i dont hear you complaining about not getting a voting slip there. Lines must be drawn somehwere. A good test of your eligibility would be to ask the question, if you had to apply for English citizenship in order to continue to live and work in London, would you be so overcome with your notion of Scottishness that you immediately sell up and come back to Paisley? Either come back up here to vote or stay where you and get the bonus of the chance to vote for Boris as your PM.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

This is about something a little more palpable than council elections. It's about the potential demise of a nation. Not so easily dismissed....

So your response indicates that it IS only Nationalists that don't want ALL Scots to participate in a vote that impacts on all their futures.

That does seem Nationalist... In the political sense.

The potential demise of a nation?

[salmonbuddie]

He means a state comprising more than one nation.

[Stuart Dickson]

Instead of Scottish MPs representing 9% of all MPs making decisions about Scotland in the UK, Scottish MPs will represent 100% of all MPs making decisions about Scotland after independence.

That's the only comparison which is meaningful.

In the same way that instead of having 30m or there abouts workers paying income tax and national insurance to pay for state pensions and the NHS the entire cost will fall on just 2m workers, many of whom are working in the public sector

[Stuart Dickson]

Says the man who got it completely wrong about the banking crisis.

We all know Salmond got it completely wrong about the banking crisis to the extent that he was stupid enough to cheerlead RBSs I'll fated takeover of ABN Amro. Is that who you are referring too cause earlier you seemed to be saying the Economic Report I linked to was everything you already knew and weren't scared of.

[beyond our ken]

In the same way that instead of having 30m or there abouts workers paying income tax and national insurance to pay for state pensions and the NHS the entire cost will fall on just 2m workers, many of whom are working in the public sector

And we only have to pay for the pensions of a comparable amount, how great is that?

Scotland will have the choice to set up a national pension fund, if it wants to and if it goes independent

Imagine a contribution based system where your contribution actually secures your future, as opposed to one that uses your pension contribution to buy nuclear subs that will never fire a shot in anger, or uses your money to build up public assets and then commutes ownership to rich friends for a fraction of what we paid to sustain them

Do you want to stay in a system borrows the money for your pension month by month?

[Stuart Dickson]

Your continued use of the natsi word is getting on my nerves Stuart.Please cut it out as its not clever.I will not be voting for Salmond or the SNP but for a fairer independent Scotland on September 18th.A country free of Westminster administration.As big Boris(soon to be prime minister of the rest of the UK )has classed the referendum as the peasants revolt I find it difficult to fathom out how anybody would want to remain in the UK.

Are you really threatening to revolt if Scotland votes No? First IBOS threatens "hostilities" and now you threaten "revolt" and you don't like the use of the word "natsi". Can you not just accept the democratic will of your fellow countrymen instead of trying to threaten them at the ballot box?

[Stuart Dickson]

StuD is really wee Eck? Who knew!

Elaborate, what did Salmond get wrong DURING or AFTER the banking crisis?

He wrote love letters to Freddy Goodwin encouraging him to buy ABN Amro offering all the support he could give, and while negotiations between the UK government and HBOS were ongoing to save the bank , Salmond went on TV to claim HBOS was a good bank being pulled down by spice and speculators. Salmond fiddled while Rome burned

[Stuart Dickson]

I wasn't making an argument, I was pointing out that there are many other ways to look at the distribution of Mp's as opposed to the selective way that you chose.

Who are these Natsi's you keep referring to?

Oh you were you liar. You were arguing that Scotland was under represented at Westminster both in terms of population and land mass. I've shown you are wrong in population terms, and I've shown why giving the Pentland hills the same number of MPs as Paisley and Glasgow combined would be ridiculous. Have the good grace to accept you were wrong

[Stuart Dickson]

The report comes as it was announced that potential oil and gas discoveries off the west coast of Scotland are to be examined in a partnership between the Scottish Government, industry and academics.

Areas including the Solway Firth, the Firth of Clyde, the North Channel and the Sea of the Hebrides will be the focus of the study.

Only around 20 exploration wells have been drilled off the west coast of the mainland, compared to the thousands drilled in the north and north east of the country.

The N-56 report was welcomed by the First Minister.

Alex Salmond said: “This substantial new report from a leading business organisation blows another huge hole in the credibility of the OBR’s oil forecasts, especially as it comes just days after esteemed Scottish economist, Professor Sir Donald Mackay, said the OBR’s calculations were ‘precisely wrong’ and ‘hopelessly at sea’.

“The report also endorses the Scottish Government’s plans to set up an energy fund - something Westminster have consistently failed to do to the great detriment of current and future generations.

“Instead of continuing to talk down Scotland’s oil and gas sector, the No campaign should acknowledge that the sector has a bright future ahead of it.

“With a Yes vote in September we will be able to ensure that the sector benefits from a more stable taxation regime instead of being subject to surprise Treasury tax grabs - maximising the jobs that the industry creates and revenue for the long-term, and ensuring that Scotland’s resources are used to the full benefit of the people of Scotland.”

Even more heavily reliant on volitile oil prices. still , I shouldn't complain. At least I've got skills that would be in demand. I'm no so sure what all those bankers, teachers, nurses, and all those in the public sector will do post independence. Perhaps they'll all be able to get a job at Amazon Edited August 18, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[beyond our ken]

Are you really threatening to revolt if Scotland votes No? First IBOS threatens "hostilities" and now you threaten "revolt" and you don't like the use of the word "natsi". Can you not just accept the democratic will of your fellow countrymen instead of trying to threaten them at the ballot box?

I think this may well be your stupidest post yet

[Stuart Dickson]

You are now part of the diaspora, we love the sentiment you have for Scotland and your concern for it's future, just as we love my cousin in Toronto's concerns. You may well make & spend a few bob here, but unfortunately you don't have a Scottish address, your pension fund might invest in shale gas companies in the states but i dont hear you complaining about not getting a voting slip there. Lines must be drawn somehwere. A good test of your eligibility would be to ask the question, if you had to apply for English citizenship in order to continue to live and work in London, would you be so overcome with your notion of Scottishness that you immediately sell up and come back to Paisley? Either come back up here to vote or stay where you and get the bonus of the chance to vote for Boris as your PM.

Boris or Salmond? I'd take Boris every f**king time

[beyond our ken]

Even more heavily reliant on volitile oil prices. still , I shouldn't complain. At least I've got skills that would be in demand. I'm no so sure what all those bankers, teachers, nurses, and all those in the public sector will do post independence. Perhaps they'll all be able to get a job at Amazon

That's a thought, we could get Amazon to pay the tax on what they make in England into Scotland's tax pot. We would be quids in

[bluto]

You are now part of the diaspora, we love the sentiment you have for Scotland and your concern for it's future, just as we love my cousin in Toronto's concerns. You may well make & spend a few bob here, but unfortunately you don't have a Scottish address, your pension fund might invest in shale gas companies in the states but i dont hear you complaining about not getting a voting slip there. Lines must be drawn somehwere. A good test of your eligibility would be to ask the question, if you had to apply for English citizenship in order to continue to live and work in London, would you be so overcome with your notion of Scottishness that you immediately sell up and come back to Paisley? Either come back up here to vote or stay where you and get the bonus of the chance to vote for Boris as your PM.

I don't have a pension.

I will be sticking with my UK passport come what may (although it wullnae come...).

I never voted for Boris as Mayor, but as it's a democracy I also never bleated about it and tried for a separate east London Republic. I haven't cut and run from the fight. I believe in London and for working to turn it back into a ken-livingstone stylee socialist republic. :

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh you were you liar. You were arguing that Scotland was under represented at Westminster both in terms of population and land mass. I've shown you are wrong in population terms, and I've shown why giving the Pentland hills the same number of MPs as Paisley and Glasgow combined would be ridiculous. Have the good grace to accept you were wrong

No.

Once again all you have shown is your selective use of numbers to make them fit your opinions.

Have the good grace to f**k off and stop responding to me.

[bluto]

The potential demise of a nation?

Economically and politically, aye....

[Guest TPAFKATS]

And we only have to pay for the pensions of a comparable amount, how great is that?

Scotland will have the choice to set up a national pension fund, if it wants to and if it goes independent

Imagine a contribution based system where your contribution actually secures your future, as opposed to one that uses your pension contribution to buy nuclear subs that will never fire a shot in anger, or uses your money to build up public assets and then commutes ownership to rich friends for a fraction of what we paid to sustain them

Do you want to stay in a system borrows the money for your pension month by month?

The desperate scare tactics of No.

Yes there will be less paying tax, but they won't mention that there will people taking either.

They really do think the whole of Scotland is as thick as them.

[bluto]

And we only have to pay for the pensions of a comparable amount, how great is that?

Scotland will have the choice to set up a national pension fund, if it wants to and if it goes independent

Imagine a contribution based system where your contribution actually secures your future, as opposed to one that uses your pension contribution to buy nuclear subs that will never fire a shot in anger, or uses your money to build up public assets and then commutes ownership to rich friends for a fraction of what we paid to sustain them

Do you want to stay in a system borrows the money for your pension month by month?

Set up a pension fund IF IT WANTS TO?

Wow. That'll encourage the greybeards to vote for an uncertain future right enough....

And I have to once again say that I am hugely impressed that Nationalists believe ALL future Scots politicians are gaunie be of an ilk we've never seen before... Spending our money only on the things we each, as individuals, wish to see purchased... And all the nasty stuff ignored.

I love Utopia....

That's a thought, we could get Amazon to pay the tax on what they make in England into Scotland's tax pot. We would be quids in

As I note above, I'd also love to see that happen.... Companies like Amazon paying taxes to ANY of the states in which it operates. Other than Luxembourg, Monaco, the Cayman Islands etc.... Or Utopia....

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The latest better together poster girl is Yvonne Hama. Yvonne is just an ordinary single mum from Lanarkshire, at least according to bettertogether.net .

Unfortunately Yvonne's twitter accounts show her regularly calling the SNP Natsis and retweeting posts from Orange Order and nick griffin. She also does a nice line in anti catholic bigotry.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Economically and politically, aye....

Too wee, too poor, too stupid?

[Stuart Dickson]

Too wee, too poor, too stupid?

You certainly are.....

[bluto]

Too wee, too poor, too stupid?

I would never have thought so, but then I've never understood the perverted desire for a half-hearted, economically disastrous, semi-separation in the first place.

I think that separation, if not likened to suicidal, is certainly self-harming....

...so I'm sure those reasons are good enough for you to vote : Aye.

Edited August 18, 2014 by bluto

[Stuart Dickson]

And we only have to pay for the pensions of a comparable amount, how great is that?

Scotland will have the choice to set up a national pension fund, if it wants to and if it goes independent

Imagine a contribution based system where your contribution actually secures your future, as opposed to one that uses your pension contribution to buy nuclear subs that will never fire a shot in anger, or uses your money to build up public assets and then commutes ownership to rich friends for a fraction of what we paid to sustain them

Do you want to stay in a system borrows the money for your pension month by month?

Ah right. To be honest that sounds about as real as Santa flying round the world in seconds on Christmas Eve to place presents around the Christmas Tree, or the Tooth Fairy getting round all those domestic burglar alarms to get into kids bedrooms to swap cash for their teeth.

John Swinney, you know, the Scottish Finance Minister, on the 16th of June 2014 said that on gaining Independence the SNP would borrow £billions to kick start the economy. Now you are telling us that as well as borrowing through the roof, Scotland is going to be able to pay all 1m of our current pensioners their existing pensions despite not having a transferable fund to pay it from, and create a pension pot from the contributions from the workers in the country to fund future pension liabilities.

Economists don't agree with you. Check out page 99 and page 100 of the Economists Report into the Economic Consequences of An Independent Scotland. As Salmonbuddie has already said there's nothing in there you don't already know but it is worth reading just to refresh your memory. I'd recommend starting with the line "6 Conclusions" on that page if you want a brief reminder. We also know that Scotland needs net migration to show an increase in Scotlands working population by 500,000 over the next 20 years. That's an increase in our working population by around 20%. 20% more jobs would also need to be created to keep all those immigrants earning money and paying taxes to fund pension liabilities. Indeed the SNP have pledged to open the doors to immigrants because of the need for more workers to fund the growing pension liability Scotland will have as our population gets older - hardly an indication that they are planning to run independent pension funds for each individual as you are claiming. We also know from recent polls that actually Independence is likely to have a different effect - with 750,000 Scots saying they would leave Scotland if Scotland were to become independent. I guess you better hope all of those people are pensioners and not workers.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

I think this may well be your stupidest post yet

I'm just asking. He's the one suggesting there was the prospect of the peasants revolting. IBOS claimed that "hostilities were on the way" if Scotland votes No. I'm kind of hoping this isn't the start of a general trend over the next 30 days where the Natsi's ramp up their campaign to the point of attempting to bully voters with threats of a civil war.