The Referendum Thread

[oaksoft]

If I was a 16 year old, would it be a problem?

Why are you so angry all the time?

How can I be angry when I'm still laughing at your ludicrous belief that odds at the bookies means the same as voting intentions.

I support 16 year olds voting because I think they'll vote Yes and polling confirms that.

Don't for one minute think I believe the majority of them to be arsed enough to fully inform themselves of the situation.

How would they find the time between Twatter, Facebook, computer games, getting pissed and an infinite number of other useless things which take up and waste their time.

[Lex]

 

How can I be angry when I'm still laughing at your ludicrous belief that odds at the bookies means the same as voting intentions.

I support 16 year olds voting because I think they'll vote Yes and polling confirms that.

Don't for one minute think I believe the majority of them to be arsed enough to fully inform themselves of the situation.

How would they find the time between Twatter, Facebook, computer games, getting pissed and an infinite number of other useless things which take up and waste their time.

You're such a bitter angry old man

What polls show 16 year olds are voting yes? Provide source and link please.

[oaksoft]

You're such a bitter angry old man :

What polls show 16 year olds are voting yes? Provide source and link please.

Sadly, like most young people you are a lazy bastard who wants everything on a plate.

Away and sit down and I'll bring you a full report, tea and custard creams.

Alternatively, go and search for it yourself.

For someone who claims to be informed you should already know about this.

Tell you what, I'll throw you a bone. Demonstrate you've at least TRIED to find out for yourself and I'll come back to you with it.

Edited February 16, 2014 by oaksoft

[Lex]

 

Sadly, like most young people you are a lazy bastard who wants everything on a plate.

Away and sit down and I'll bring you a full report, tea and custard creams.

Alternatively, go and search for it yourself.

For someone who claims to be informed you should already know about this.

 

Tell you what, I'll throw you a bone. Demonstrate you've at least TRIED to find out for yourself and I'll come back to you with it.

It doesn't exist does it? You've made a claim, you've been asked for evidence to back it up, then you've thrown your toys out the pram like a big baby.

[beyond our ken]

Yes and he's sadly out of touch when he compares Spain's rejection to the admission of Kosovo to a possible rejection of Scotland on similar grounds ! I was a wee bit meh about the whole thing till a couple of months ago , but the desperate efforts of the Tories and that arsehole Darling to peddle any lies at all to try and swing it their way only makes it easier to vote yes. Hopefully the Scottish public can see through the cross-party collusion and attempts at self-preservation. It is becoming increasingly clear that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to do the right thing !

I started off pro, went undecided and am now uneqivically a yes voter. deciding factor for me is the increasing disparity in the distribution of wealth. An american commentator was on BBC 24 yesterday and said he wasnt surprised that there was a push, for such a small country there is a ridiculous concentration of wealth in the London region, most of those who make money there spend it there or in wealthy enclaves, this puts the rest of the country at risk from their spiral of housing bubbles. as things stand, Scotland stands to contribute a huge amount to cover the billions that will be spent to protect housing built in unsustainable areas from flooding as well as billions from our power bills to cover the re-buildong of the lectricity network that is not built to withstand harsh scottish style weather. The greed and double standards are breathtaking, they dont want nuclear electricity, fracking or wind power but are happy for the rest of the UK to bear the brunt of this. Britain as a whole is suffering to make London a success and scotland has a chance to break out of their cycles of folly and greed.

I say, leave them to have their pound, and their debt. see how well they dig themselves out of it without oil and make scotland a manufacturer's haven

[beyond our ken]

i got excited typing the above post as i saw 4, then 8, then 10 new posts as i typed, the debate is geting interesting, i thought, only to see Oaksoft v Lex playing ping pong, but using shite instead of a ball

[BuddieinEK]

SNP have been actively canvassing schools for three years now. Look at your local SNP councillors Facebook page... I can guarantee the vast majority will have thousands of "friends" still at schools they have visited... but who will be old enough to vote in September.

[Lex]

Here we go:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22745855

' A study of teenagers who will be eligible to vote in the 2014 referendum has suggested 60% do not think Scotland should be independent.

In a major piece of work, more than 1,000 14-17 year olds were questioned by researchers from Edinburgh University.

The results indicated 21% would say yes to independence, with 19% undecided.

Of the young people questioned, 67% said they would like more information ahead of their final decision.'

Wow. 60% for no and only 21% for yes! Looks like Oaky has been caught talking shite, again!

Edited February 16, 2014 by Lex

[salmonbuddie]

President of The EC Commission Jose Manuel Barrosso putting another boot into the yes campaigns plans for an independent Scotland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

All this uncertainty! No wonder we are going to vote no

Two things; firstly, the Kosovo scenario is completely different and not applicable to Scotland, there are too many differences the most fundamental of which is that we are already in the EU, Kosovo isn't; if you can't see the difference then you really are blinkered. Secondly, I wonder how all those Spanish fishermen will react when they discover that their government has put them out of a job?

[Lex]

 

Two things; firstly, the Kosovo scenario is completely different and not applicable to Scotland, there are too many differences the most fundamental of which is that we are already in the EU, Kosovo isn't; if you can't see the difference then you really are blinkered. Secondly, I wonder how all those Spanish fishermen will react when they discover that their government has put them out of a job?

Don't take this personally, but I certainly trust the president of the EU commission to be more informed on this issue than you.

Uncertainty about EU membership, uncertainty about currency, uncertainty everywhere! Independence would be a needless jump into a darkened room. Thank goodness the Scottish people aren't interested in such reckless gambles.

[groucho]

Sir David Edwards thinks a little bit differently , the UK’s former judge on the European Court of Justice, has rejected the idea that there will be a stroke-of-midnight moment after which Scotland’s relationship with the EU simply ends abruptly.

Instead, he argues, there would be a process of negotiation to meet the requirements of EU law.

After a Yes vote, Scotland would not be outside the EU. There is no mechanism in EU law for Scotland to be expelled from the EU after a Yes vote, or for us to be deprived, overnight, of our EU citizenship

The only real threat to EU membership is if we vote no .

[salmonbuddie]

Don't take this personally, but I certainly trust the president of the EU commission to be more informed on this issue than you.

Uncertainty about EU membership, uncertainty about currency, uncertainty everywhere! Independence would be a needless jump into a darkened room. Thank goodness the Scottish people aren't interested in such reckless gambles.

I didn't say it would be without negotiation, I said it's a completely different scenario. "It is to some extent a similar case...." he said, hardly a ringing "We'll treat you like Kosovo" now, is it? He's a politician playing to his own audience, like Osborne with the currency. Reality will come home to roost when we vote Yes.

And you're right, the Scottish people would much rather remain in the Union and be f**ked over again, better together and all that. What a winner that phrase is, you'd think someone could use it.

Edited February 16, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[oaksoft]

Here we go:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22745855

' A study of teenagers who will be eligible to vote in the 2014 referendum has suggested 60% do not think Scotland should be independent.

In a major piece of work, more than 1,000 14-17 year olds were questioned by researchers from Edinburgh University.

The results indicated 21% would say yes to independence, with 19% undecided.

Of the young people questioned, 67% said they would like more information ahead of their final decision.'

Wow. 60% for no and only 21% for yes! Looks like Oaky has been caught talking shite, again!

That's a YEAR out of date.

[oaksoft]

Don't take this personally, but I certainly trust the president of the EU commission to be more informed on this issue than you.

Like I said it's as though you simply don't understand politics.

[oaksoft]

Here we go:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22745855

' A study of teenagers who will be eligible to vote in the 2014 referendum has suggested 60% do not think Scotland should be independent.

In a major piece of work, more than 1,000 14-17 year olds were questioned by researchers from Edinburgh University.

The results indicated 21% would say yes to independence, with 19% undecided.

Of the young people questioned, 67% said they would like more information ahead of their final decision.'

Wow. 60% for no and only 21% for yes! Looks like Oaky has been caught talking shite, again!

I'll put you out of your misery. I've already posted this from 2 or 3 weeks ago as opposed to LAST SUMMER.

http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/2014_jan_scotland_poll2.pdf

Honestly, my dog is more clued up than you.

I'm assuming you can read tables without help.

The column you want is 16-24 year olds.

Edited February 16, 2014 by oaksoft

[zurich_allan]

Sigh - I already clarified the EU position in quite a bit of detail a few pages ago - this statement from Barrosso is nothing new whatsoever - it's the same stance he's maintained throughout and is indeed accurate IF an existing Member State didn't agree to a Treaty change. There absolutely wouldn't be a situation whereby Scotland is one day a Member and the next day not - timescales for exit and re-entry could possibly be organised in such a way that the transition is seemless. On the other hand, if another Member REALLY didn't play ball (hopefully unlikely), and refused to allow us in as an independent State - it would be a 2-3 year transition out of the Union, with a hopefully already suitable entry to the EEA and EFTA, allowing us at least the free trade and movement aspects of Europe, if not the negotiating ones.

[Bloomsbury Bud]

I can't help finding it surprising that there's a body of opinion which feels uncertainty over EU membership works in favour of the 'no' vote. The most likely route out of the EU is the promised UK referendum in 2017 on continuing EU membership.

[bluto]

Careful, za...

That sounds like 'bullying'. :

[Bart Simpson]

Careful, za...

 

That sounds like 'bullying'.  :

I disagree Bluto, I think the sensationalism of the debate to polarise opinion leads to far too many not engaging their brain to decide themselves.

Scotland will categorically not be cast out into the middle of the Atlantic with a Yes vote. The exact debate has it's nuances as per ZA's comments. Negotiation will be the key.

Furthermore there is far more likelihood of Scotland leaving the EU if we vote No as is mentioned above. It is curious that 'Better Together' will be forgotten about when Europe becomes the issue for the majority of the ConDem government.

Positivity and a statement of intent from the No campaign to address the apparent overwhelming demand for 'Devo Max' would nip an awful lot of resentment in the bud.

[Bart Simpson]

 

If you accept the status quo then Scotland's situation is nowhere near as dire when it comes to the size of the working population. The reason is simple. As part of the UK political union so long as the figures work out UK wide it doesn't really matter that Scotland can't attract non EU immigrants - even with the door wide open. The fact that a so called Independent Scotland would have such a desperate need for immigrants to support the economy should prove to everyone that the Better Together assertion that an Independent Scotland would struggle to meet it's pension liability is correct. As I've said before the grass isn't always greener and change for change sake is just stupid, especially when it means coming out of the worlds most successful political union to have a shot in the dark on the basis that Nicola Sturgeon has a dream of a Utopia where an omnipotent Scotland will dictate to the whole world the terms of how it will trade with Scotland. 

 

The details of the Treasury Report into currency union are to be published later today and, according to the BBC, it's going to say that civil servants believe that the only way to make currency union work is if Scotland agrees to underwrite all UK banks, and vice versa. If UK and Scottish taxpayers agree to subsidise each other and agreements can be reached on borrowing limits and taxation levels on both sides of the border. Think about it - that's simple common sense. Indeed it's how the Euro Currency Union works right now - but it's not the post independence picture the Nationalists would have you believe. The Nationalists will tell you that Scots currently subsidise England with our oil money and that if we are Independent we'll all be better off but clearly they can't possibly meet that pledge if they continue to insist on currency union. 

 

As for Sturgeons response to George Osbournes comments today it's quite clear that if Scotland refused to pay it's debts it would have real problems borrowing any money off the international markets. After all who is going to buy Scottish Government Bonds when they've made it clear that they can't be trusted to meet their liabilities in the future. You'd have to offer an interest rate that would be consumerate with the risk that investing in Scotland would clearly be - and that would mean much more expensive credit for Scots. Again that's hardly a scare story - it's simply following the argument to it's logical conclusion. The onus should be put on the SNP to show proof of how they intend to legally dump their debt allocation without harming the countries international reputation beyond repair. 

I accept that the number 1 policy on currency from the SNP has changed with time, but I would say that that was responsible governance looking at the best solution for Scotland. The stated policy is the preferred option, there are alternatives but all have their own implications for Scotland and the rUK.

I would have less of an issue with the no campaign if there was a plan to address the problems that have lead to the referendum. Rather than Salmond being the man without a plan, I would argue it is the No campaign lacking direction, ambition and desire. Regardless of the politics involved the SNP have highlighted their desires, made their case and openly discussed alternatives following this signal of intent from ConDem et al. The No campaign have no plans for negotiation/Devo Max/engagement of the Scottish population and as a result are pinning all their hopes on scaremongering. In doing so they are doing a lot of the Yes campaign's work for them.

Same for immigration, where is the solution within the current framework of devolution?

[BuddieinEK]

As far as I can see the SNP only wanted to retain the pound as the thought of changing currency Would be enough to put off most undecided voters. It was a vote winning decision rather than one made in the bedt interests of the country.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Odds are 1/4 on for no and 7/2 for yes FYI. It's all over, isn't it?

A few months ago you were on here on an almost daily basis crowing about 7/1 for yes. Now that it's halved to 7/2 you need to be prodded for the odds..

[Guest TPAFKATS]

As far as I can see the SNP only wanted to retain the pound as the thought of changing currency Would be enough to put off most undecided voters. It was a vote winning decision rather than one made in the bedt interests of the country.

As far as I know, this was the "best" option recommended by the Scot gov economic something or other. It seems to be easiest for businesses in both Scotland & ruk despite the complications of currency union.

However as all main UK parties are ruling it out then it will be one of the other options.

One thing is certain, UK cannot stop Scotland or anyone else from using sterling as a currency - Osborne knows this. Hes bluffing or an incompetent arse.

[bluto]

tony... Thought you were better than that.

AFAIK, Osborne has NEVER said that UK would stop anyone from USING sterling as their currency.

I ignored earlier bleatings about that from earlier posters after the first couple of times I tried to put it right.

What the Mainstream parties have said is that there will be no Currency Union. That's all.

It's way more than enough, but that's all.

THAT is what should be under discussion by posters in here if they want to address the right subject.

[BuddieinEK]

wee query for the economists among you... re the economy of an Independent Scotland.

As far as I can tell, the Yes campaign say we will be better off as an independent country.

If that is the case, and we retained the pound... surely my pound would increase in value. England, Wales and Northern Ireland presumably would also retain the pound as their currency. Without the wealth of the North sea oil and all Scotland contributes it would presumably reduce in value... at best stay the same.

So a Scottish pound is worth £1.20... a UK (minus Scotland) pound is worth 95p.

I go to Wales on holiday and take a fiver spending money... what is it worth?

I really can't see how an economic union would be in Scotland's best interests... surely it would hold us back? Is it not a good thing that it has been rejected by the other parties? What is plan B?