Slartibartfast

I was out with a few mates on Friday night. Five of us in total. Two definite YES voters, two who will vote NO, and an undecided. A decent cross-section.
Interestingly, and, I would concede, perhaps understandably, one of the NO voters would be voting YES but for the fact that he works for the Ministry of Defence in Argyll, and fears for his livelihood. Aside from that, he pretty much agreed with every argument put forward in favour of independence. The other NO voter, probably my closest mate of nearly 30 years standing, ranted and raved in an overall negative manner, and seemed to be tipping the final, and undecided, member of the group towards the YES camp.
It was an interesting portion of the night, and, for me, typified much of the tone of the debate thus far. I think there is a turning of the tide towards a YES vote. I feel it in my water!

Explain yourself, man! Clearly an oblique reference to the once thriving shipbuilding industry so cruelly destroyed by the No campaigners. Aye, rivets. I can hear them like it was yesterday in the pre-welding days. We've also been robbed of that plaintive cry 'Haw hen! You've got a face like a rivet catcher's mitt!'

A very reasonable, measured response to StuD's witterings. It'll never catch on.......

1. A five point swing according to latest polls. Not very large by anyone's standards, particularly as the Obama effect could well see the Yes campaign mobilise a greater share of its voters: it's one thing saying you're not in favour of independence to someone who stops you in the street or calls you up, it's quite another to actually got and state at the polls that Scotland should not be an independents country.
2. Simply incorrect - the latest poll I saw asking voters which way they would vote in the next general election (albeit it is a year away) showed that the only way of forming a government was for a Tory/UKIP coalition (or Labour/UKIP, but that would not happen). You can rest assured that a referendum would be the result. The Tories have already started moving in that direction by kicking out the only pro-EU members of cabinet and making ludicrous noises about withdrawing from the ECHR and by implication the Council of Europe - a charter that British lawyers drafted and an institution that the Brits were at the forefront of setting up. It is shameful.
3. I don't agree. Britain already has a ridiculous position within the EU, in that it cherry picks what it wants to take and seems unwilling to contribute. That is not how a union works to most rational people. The rest of the EU is fed up with Britain - witness Cameron's ridiculous posturing over Juncker, and his subsequent humiliation. It is not acceptable that Britain has a rebate in the first place, and I don't see the rest of the EU giving Britain further advantages as there is nothing in it for them.
4. Don't be so sure. The major parties campaigned for EU membership in the European elections and were dealt a bloody nose. As for your polls - simply not true. A majority of people are in favour of leaving, and they'd need only a 2% swing according to this poll from June (and when Scotland leaves, that could provie the necessary swing on its own):
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll
5. Scotland is currently in the EU with no power, no control and no voice. As an independent country, we would at the very least double our number of representatives in the parliament and have a say in the Commission. We currently have no say over the sterling (which is why Scotland should have its own currency and own central bank, but that will come in time). Our position will not be any worse off; in fact the contrary is true. Voting for independence is not saying that you don't want to trade with England (although voting to the EU certainly does mean saying you don't want to trade with Europe given that you will have left the internal market) and business would continue exactly as before because businessmen want to make money, not play party politics.

i dont understand that one either, people say they want to be rid of decisions made in england that affect scotland and then seem to crave the possibility of still being under the decision making of parliament members from every EEU country - including england ?

The issue for me is not whether we could join/remain part of the EU... it is why the hell we would want to be part of the EU with absolutely no pre knowledge of what part we could play or what autonomy we would have.
Are we SO desperate to remove power from Westminster (which I agree must happen) that weare prepared to potentially give even more power to Brussels?
To me, that is NOT independence.

Also why would both future (if it works that way) governments not want the pound to be the currency used by two countries linked by land? It would make trade far easier and cost far less. As far as England,Wales,Northern Ireland splitting with Scotland, look at the velvet separation between Slovakia and the czek republic. No issues. Easy. Oh. Sorry, no oil, hmmm. Wars around the world, Scotland being independant, common denominator? Errr oil?

My father has a 'no thanks' sticker on his window and nothing has ever happened to him or his car. He also sports a 'no thanks' badge on his shirt/ jacket and nothing had happened to him. There are possibly hundreds of people sporting 'no thanks' on their cars/ apparel without incident. Maybe people know she is related to you?

so the cap placed on NHS pay settlements is not a cut? would the move to local pay rather than national settlements for nurses not be a cut?
Cost saving measure designed to reduce expenditure = cut in spending over whatever period it is effective in
Despite all else that you might say, not increasing payments in line with inflation and demand growth represents a cut in real terms
But maybe health is a poor example as we are discussing the semantics of comparing large cuts to freezes on expenditure below the rate of inflation or below the rate of demand growth,
talking of examples I'll admit to not expressing myself properly and even making a mistake-I apologise wholeheartedly to all of the adults on the forum and to you
Your turn now
I don't follow the example of others on this forum who actually believe that everything you post in any subject is something that you hold true-i prefer the more credible view that you are sitting in a poorly furnished hovel, in your baked-bean stained vest & pants, desperately trying to argue with strangers over the internet because if you didn't have us you'd be on your own.

And the footage, we can look at that, too. When you post the link to it........
This is me not holding my breath. Again.

The case is made...Scotland needs to be free and those who stand in it's way are in the words of Robert Burns a "parcel of rogues".
Stuart Dickson and his like are rogues.

I've seen it more than once in the last fortnight.
Weans wearing the strip of a team that's not their home town, heads turned by the bright lights and big city slickers!
In both Kirkwall and Wick!
Why don't they wear Kirkwall Hotspurs or Wick Academy strips instead of the seductive shades of er.... Ross County?
Fair made me boke!

I'm not awfy' political and haven't contributed much to this thread, but one thing struck me today. The announcement about the big investment at Ineos in Grangemouth in partnership with the UK government, and how it will protect jobs there for twenty years.
Call me cynical, but the timing of this announcement couldn't possibly have anything to do with the upcoming referendum, could it?
Nah, pure co-incidence. Nothing to see, move along.

Oh dear, Stu.
That must hurt.
ETA: you would do yourself no end of good if you occasionally acknowledged that you'd f**ked up.

Aye it's always been you and the likes of you that needed watching.What a difference one small letter makes. :

is it a "bring your own blade night",or are they supplying them.... ..

Also been getting some problems - when I'm typing there's sometimes a gap of a second or two before the character appears on the screen.
Sometimes the letter doesn't appear at all and I have to give up and get back to my work.
It's a tragedy that those nuggets of wisdom that I was about to type are permanently lost to humanity.
Think of it as a typed version of 70's comedian Norm n C l ier.

I often wear jeans, I hope she doesn't find out.

Wear my football tops about the house, when I play 5's, also at Scotland, Liverpool & Cup Semi games. There are some instances though when a grown man shouldn't be wearing a football top/strip, like when it's Medium size and it should be XXL that they are wearing

History repeats itself.....1690 all over again!

If we could just stop ego-fuelled bigots strapping on orange "Miss World" type sashes and laughable bowlers hats, from spending the best part of 6 weeks deliberately marching through Catholic areas with their jingoistic flute bands trying to wind up fellow bigots on the other side maybe it'll stay that way.
Ban all organised religion.

We already know Westminster plans further savage cuts. That isn't in doubt.
Whether an independent Scotland resolves this or not is unknown, unknowable (because the people with the figures are on the BT side) and irrelevant because it will depend who gets elected to run the country afterwards.
This isn't a vote about the economy or the EU or currency or pensions or anything like that.
This is simply and boringly a vote about who makes the decisions which affect us. London or Edinburgh.
No evidence is required or necessary. No proof or case building needed. It's all as simple as it is possible to be.
Who makes decisions affecting us.
If you believe rich Tory toffs in London then vote No.
If you believe it should be people who live and work in Scotland then vote Yes.
I really can't understand the vitriol, the panic and the hysterics from the No side on this at all.
This isn't about fascism, brownshirts or North Korea. This is about decision making. It's hardly braveheart stuff.
Neither does it exactly need anything as hysterical as a "leap of faith".
The only reason the No politicians are fighting this is simply because they'll lose their power, salaries and influence if we vote Yes.

so sorry - of course i will - including this one

Don't know what'll happen if we vote Yes, all may not be well in the long run but it's a racing certainty we'll be f**ked if we vote No.

Nuclear power is NOT sustainable.
Neither is the amount of highly toxic waste.
We simply cannot dump our energy problems on untold numbers of generations of citizens because that's what we are talking about in terms of the half life of stuff like plutonium and uranium.
Uranium 235 has a half life of 700 MILLION YEARS.
Plutonium 239 has a half life of 24 THOUSAND YEARS.
You want to leave that problem for your kids to clean up do you?
That's before we get to the rather obvious fact that once we use up those isotopes they are permanently gone.
Our cup doesn't run over with endless supplies of either of them.
I know you are a selfish bastard but FFS this is dreadful even for you.