St. Sid Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 OK Mr. Atkinson (Richard) What can I do to help ? Please tell us. You can answer the question I asked you earlier or are you just a dafty one way street tyre kicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Having to do a lot of guesswork here but say 500 fans at say £150 per a year plus 20 businesses at say £10,000 EXTRA a year is about £275,000. Even this is very optimistic. I say EXTRA as the 20 businesses are probably already putting their hand in their pockets (corporate hospitality track side ads etc.) and 500 fans at £150 a year is asking quite a lot. Say £300,000 in one off grant from the Scottish Investment Fund. Looks like a lot of debt to make it up to £2,000,000. The whole scheme is very dependent on the fans and businesses to keep paying for a long time to come. Am I wrong ? Yes, you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Do you really think for £150 ish a year you will get 'a real say in the decision making process of the club' ? Dream on. Hmm.....you reckon it will be £10-a-month and calculate that as £150-a-year. Are you an accountant for Enron? So here's a scenario for you to throw out your passionate opinion on: The CIC doesn't happen. SG & Co sell up their shares to some unknown entity. Share with us why that scenario will be better for us than your very limited knowledge of the CIC model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Would I rather Gordon Scott had taken control ? Probably, because it would have been a more traditional sale that I understood and I know Gordon knows how to run a club and had good plans for taking us further forward. Unfortunately the board rejected his offer, so we were without a credible buyer until this opportunity arose. I'm in the dark as to why Gordon Scott's offer(s) were rejected - other than to suppose it was all down to internal polictics / strife / We're no' sellin' tae' him... however best to put it. SG always said he wouldn't sell unless it was to the right owners - but having rejected Gordon Scott, the CIC plan does seem to be the only alternative game in town, so have the consortium indeed just taken a big deep breath and said 'Better go with this - there's nothing else now anyway?' The longer this complex process takes to materialise into something 'real' the less confidence I have in Mr Atkinson and the less convinced I am that it will benefit St Mirren in the long run. What's the worst that can happen if the fans refuse to back the CIC plan ? The existing board would still be in place, they would still want out, and they still wouldn't have the cash they are desperate for in exchange for their shareholding. What do they do next ? Would Gordon Scott be prepared to re-table his offer to take control ? If so, would that make his offer the new 'Better go with this - there's nothing else now anyway?' for SG and his cronies ? Their original decision to refuse GS's offer was taken while there were other interested parties sniffing around. Would it be so easy to knock back if it became Hobson's choice ? All supporters who believe that Gordon Scott could take St Mirren forward and render it unnecessary for our club to get involved in the black magic being promoted by Mr Atkinson ought to refuse to support the CIC plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 You can answer the question I asked you earlier or are you just a dafty one way street tyre kicker. You asked ""Is there a basis for your outrage or is it just your standard state of mind when in a position of voluntary ignorance."" I am just outraged that someone should come up with a scheme which will possibly destroy our club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Hmm.....you reckon it will be £10-a-month and calculate that as £150-a-year. Are you an accountant for Enron? So here's a scenario for you to throw out your passionate opinion on: The CIC doesn't happen. SG & Co sell up their shares to some unknown entity. Share with us why that scenario will be better for us than your very limited knowledge of the CIC model. I did not use an assumption of £10 a month. I simply used the possible £150 figure a year to illustrate the point. If I did use your £10 a month figure that would reduce the income to the CIC even more. By £15,000 I think. At least the 'unknown entity' might possibly buy the shares with his (her) own money and not a mixture of public money, fan's money, local company's money and massive amounts of debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 You asked ""Is there a basis for your outrage or is it just your standard state of mind when in a position of voluntary ignorance."" I am just outraged that someone should come up with a scheme which will possibly destroy our club. Still avoiding the question - you ranted, "Still no answer to the question what happens to the 48% shareholders.".....which has pertty much been your very childish tactic since you start attacking the CIC plan. I asked in return "You seem to be very keen for this to fail for some reason. If it fails what will happen to the other shareholders 48%?" Are you trying to say it will destroy our club or are you trying to say it could possibly destroy our club? For someone who is trading on rumour and supposition your opinion seems to be radicalised in the extreme against the CIC plans. I doubt you are even a St Mirren supporter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) Still avoiding the question - you ranted, "Still no answer to the question what happens to the 48% shareholders.".....which has pertty much been your very childish tactic since you start attacking the CIC plan. I asked in return "You seem to be very keen for this to fail for some reason. If it fails what will happen to the other shareholders 48%?" Are you trying to say it will destroy our club or are you trying to say it could possibly destroy our club? For someone who is trading on rumour and supposition your opinion seems to be radicalised in the extreme against the CIC plans. I doubt you are even a St Mirren supporter. I am not keen for this to fail I just don't see how it will work and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. If the CIC scheme fails to get off the ground St. Mirren will go on as it has done for over 100 years. But the CIC has the potential to destroy our club by the introduction of large amounts of possibly unserviceable debt. I have been a supporter and a season ticket holder for over 40 years, and a shareholder for over 20 years. Edited March 27, 2011 by animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I am not keen for this to fail I just don't see how it will work and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. If the CIC scheme fails to get off the ground St. Mirren will go on as it has done for over 100 years. But the CIC has the potential to destroy our club by the introduction of large amounts of possibly unserviceable debt. I have been a supporter and a season ticket holder for over 40 years, and a shareholder for over 20 years. Again you are taking the position that it is an Internet aliases job to convince you of something. This isn't a case of should Mooy and McLean be starting. This is a complex business undertaking. I do not have a role to convince you of anything and I wouldn't waste my time trying to as you already have an entrenched position on the subject. You still haven't answered the question - what will happen to the 48% shareholders if the CIC plan doesn't go ahead. What say will they have in the running of the club? What protection will they have against a buyer coming in and selling off the assets? The new buyer can come in and buy the club by creating £2M of debt, there would also be a tax bill for that transaction. That debt would be held against the clubs assets. That would put us at far greater risk than the CIC model. Let's here your views on the 52% shareholder group selling SOLE CONTROL of the club to any man and his dug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Playing devil's advocate here. Aside from the non-consortium members on the board just how much say do the 48% have now? The extra 25% at Ebbsfleet Utd had/have a representative on the club board, so potentially there'll be a few places on the Saints board as it's more than 25%. Surely though, at this stage, there's more questions to be answered on that by SG rather than by Richard. I wasn't at the AGM so how did the other shareholders approach this with Stewart? Do any of the 48% outwith the club board vote on any day to day running? As with evaluation of the shares, 52% of Saint Mirren for £2 million or a rather larger portion of Watford FC for £440,000...interestingly enough, it appears they too have doubts over minority shareholdings. I do think £2 million is too much, but then I've no idea of the business dealings of any of the 4 consortium members or how they came about the value of their shares. Oh and I believe Gordon Scott has invested his money in property elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I've no idea of the business dealings of any of the 4 consortium members or how they came about the value of their shares. Oh and I believe Gordon Scott has invested his money in property elsewhere. Pedant alert! There's 5 in the consortium looking to shift their 52%. Stewart Gilmour, George Campbell, Bryan McAusland, Allan Marshall, and Evelyn Purves - on behalf of the late Jim Purves. I believe Gordon has further invested in his Las Vegas properties. He once e-mailed me a photo from his apartment balcony. Views of the Vegas Strip, sitting there with a beer watching the sun go down over the Mojave Desert as the strip lights up.... Barsteward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Blues Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 But the CIC has the potential to destroy our club by the introduction of large amounts of possibly unserviceable debt. The CIC would have the debt - not the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 The CIC would have the debt - not the club. Precisely, just as it isn't the club becoming a CIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Again you are taking the position that it is an Internet aliases job to convince you of something. This isn't a case of should Mooy and McLean be starting. This is a complex business undertaking. I do not have a role to convince you of anything and I wouldn't waste my time trying to as you already have an entrenched position on the subject. You still haven't answered the question - what will happen to the 48% shareholders if the CIC plan doesn't go ahead. What say will they have in the running of the club? What protection will they have against a buyer coming in and selling off the assets? The new buyer can come in and buy the club by creating £2M of debt, there would also be a tax bill for that transaction. That debt would be held against the clubs assets. That would put us at far greater risk than the CIC model. Let's here your views on the 52% shareholder group selling SOLE CONTROL of the club to any man and his dug? ""what will happen to the 48% shareholders if the CIC plan doesn't go ahead."" - life will go much as it has done for over 100 years. No one is saying the present position is perfect or that a sole owner of the 52% would be guaranteed to be 100% bad or good. What concerns me is the CIC model is being presented as a life saver, but with little or no evidence to back up this claim, and a very curious lack of information on its progress or financial background. Time will unfortunately tell which one of us is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 The CIC would have the debt - not the club. And the debt will be secured on ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I mentioned this earlier. Apparently he's not even a football fan. I couldn't give a f**k about rugby but if someone devised a scheme that allowed me to own a half-decent team with other mugs stumping up the takeover cash I suppose I could fake interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 ... Because we are paying more to actually have a vote and a real say in the decision making process of the club! arguably it costs me nothing to have a say in political democracy in this country, yet I wouldn't consider that I really have much of a say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 arguably it costs me nothing to have a say in political democracy in this country, yet I wouldn't consider that I really have much of a say Nice to hear from you Nick Clegg! Welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 And the debt will be secured on ??? It isn't. That's partly why it is such a long and drawn out process. The lenders need to scrutinise the business plan to be confident that the loans can be repaid as they don't really have a legal means of recovering it if all goes tits up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 The CIC plan is to sell the stadium to a housing developer as soon as they get the keys. There is a FORTUNE to be made from a list of eager property developers who are already in a bidding war to see who gets the land. Once they've sold the stadium they are going to set fire to Ralston and claim the dosh on the insurance. Once we're homeless and have nowhere to train the players will be next, all of them are being sold. I heard Potter is going to Barcelona for a seven figure sum. ALL of the money taken in from these cunning moves is going straight into Richards back pocket. Cunning fecker ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamhammer Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 It isn't. That's partly why it is such a long and drawn out process. The lenders need to scrutinise the business plan to be confident that the loans can be repaid as they don't really have a legal means of recovering it if all goes tits up. If it all goes tits up then what happens to the shares in the club that it owns? Does a receiver come in and try and save the CIC and sell it and controlling interest in the club to a Hugh Scott type chancer? If this is such a great idea why have Dundee been told to stay well clear of doing the same when they seem to be able to raise more money for the club than we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 The CIC plan is to sell the stadium to a housing developer as soon as they get the keys. There is a FORTUNE to be made from a list of eager property developers who are already in a bidding war to see who gets the land. Once they've sold the stadium they are going to set fire to Ralston and claim the dosh on the insurance. Once we're homeless and have nowhere to train the players will be next, all of them are being sold. I heard Potter is going to Barcelona for a seven figure sum. ALL of the money taken in from these cunning moves is going straight into Richards back pocket. Cunning fecker ! Before Ralston is burned, I hope they remember to let Garry Brady out of the locked cupboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Before Ralston is burned, I hope they remember to let Garry Brady out of the locked cupboard. Gary's smoking habit is imperative to the plan working! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 If it all goes tits up then what happens to the shares in the club that it owns? Does a receiver come in and try and save the CIC and sell it and controlling interest in the club to a Hugh Scott type chancer? If this is such a great idea why have Dundee been told to stay well clear of doing the same when they seem to be able to raise more money for the club than we do? I can't comment on the D*ndee situation... However, the scenario you describe is entirely possible with any club buy-out, either by a sugardaddy type chappy or a CiC type model. The thing about the CiC model is that this is much less likely to happen as all income raised must be invested straight back into the CiC, it can't make a profit that goes straight to someone's pocket. What happens with that money is decided by the CiC members - which is why it is vital to have fans on-board and why An*mal is probably so keen to try to put people off, because he knows that the fan support is key and he clearly has a vested interest in it not working. Once the deal is done and the money is paid and the shares are transferred, it is by far and a way one of the safest and most financially secure ways to run a football club, it will over time, generate income for the club and it will be a positive for the local community as the fans and local charities and companies will get a say in what happens with the club on and off the field. This will also be done sensibly though by having some sort of elected CiC board with representation on the club board. The tits-up scenario I hinted to was more of a, 'what about if the deal goes half way through and RA bottles it or the full funding doesn't come in or the fans don't support it...' type scenario. In that case, my understanding is that the money that is raised, that the selling consortium will have been already paid, is theirs. It was loaned to the CiC who paid it to them. The CiC goes under taking with it the liability of those loans (not that the loans are recallable anyway - see previous posts for info). The selling consortium have the cash that they got paid and still have the shares. This is particularly possible if it is done over a gradual share transfer process instead of a lump, 'here have them all in one go' type idea. All of this, of course, is just speculation and pontificating on my side. It's how I'd do it if it was me though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 The CIC plan is to sell the stadium to a housing developer as soon as they get the keys. There is a FORTUNE to be made from a list of eager property developers who are already in a bidding war to see who gets the land. Once they've sold the stadium they are going to set fire to Ralston and claim the dosh on the insurance. Once we're homeless and have nowhere to train the players will be next, all of them are being sold. I heard Potter is going to Barcelona for a seven figure sum. ALL of the money taken in from these cunning moves is going straight into Richards back pocket. Cunning fecker ! People are worried because we are being kept in the dark about "the way ahead" Surely if the Club are expecting people to put their hard earned cash into the Club they should be releasing details of what we can expect and how much money it will cost us to be part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.