Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) As 10000 hours campaign closes perhaps it's time to reflect on what may have been an "opportunity knocked-back"? As far as it's possible without defending/attacking the process drawing to a close at our club could we debate what we thought fan ownership should have looked like? For me it wasn't about the fans picking the team, or falling out over the price of a pie. But the real opportunity to ensure our club is under our stewardship. and that it directly reflects the influence and relationship we have with it. So decisions from the outset to setup the process would only be made after a fans steering group (involving the likes of Smisa and all the travel clubs etc) with input from the current BoD, had taken counsel with the wishes of the majority and then set out our road map to fan ownership. Painful as it is to say, I'm very jealous of the way, the process and the results being achieved at Motherwell compare to what has transpired with us. There albeit under different circumstances a clear path was communicated, involvement was as much as you wanted it to be and clearly set out milestones remained just that, accurate measurements of the direction, speed and path that was being followed. Unsurprisingly they have surpassed thier targets without hysterics, or the need to constantly re-invent themselves. There's nothing spetacular there, indeed quite the opposite a steady, perhaps to some even boring process that will deliver what it set out to achieve. That is So-oooooooo what i wanted for us. just edited myself correcting a slanted viewpoint! Edited June 6, 2012 by somner9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Yay, ANOTHER thread on the same subject as all the other ones ! Just what we need. I won't close the topic, as I'll get told off for abusing my powers on the forum, so crack on ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Yay, ANOTHER thread on the same subject as all the other ones ! Just what we need. I won't close the topic, as I'll get told off for abusing my powers on the forum, so crack on ! Topic open for debate, hopefully without prejudice by those who have an opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Topic open for debate, hopefully without prejudice by those who have an opinion Been "debated" to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 As 10000 hours campaign closes perhaps it's time to reflect on what may have been an "opportunity knocked-back"? As far as it's possible without defending/attacking the process drawing to a close at our club could we debate what we thought fan ownership should have looked like? For me it wasn't about the fans picking the team, or falling out over the price of a pie. But the real opportunity to ensure our club is under our stewardship. and that it directly reflects the influence and relationship we have with it. So decisions from the outset to setup the process would only be made after a fans steering group (involving the likes of Smisa and all the travel clubs etc) with input from the current BoD, had taken counsel with the wishes of the majority and then set out our road map to fan ownership. Painful as it is to say, I'm very jealous of the way, the process and the results being achieved at Motherwell compare to what has transpired with us. There albeit under different circumstances a clear path was communicated, involvement was as much as you wanted it to be and clearly set out milestones remained just that, accurate measurements of the direction, speed and path that was being followed. Unsurprisingly they have surpassed thier targets without hysterics, or the need to constantly re-invent themselves. There's nothing spetacular there, indeed quite the opposite a steady, perhaps to some even boring process that will deliver what it set out to achieve. That is So-oooooooo what i wanted for us. just edited myself correcting a slanted viewpoint! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your ideal is have the club being run as a co-operative, rather than the majority shareholding being run as a co-operative? St. Mirren is a ltd company and as such has it's own rules for appointing it's BOD. So for this reason, it's a practical impossibility for the club to be run as a co-operative. It would be my ideal for this to be the case but in the meantime the CIC is the best solution. I would hope that in future, once all the debt has been repaid that 10khrs would be in a position to attract enough minority shareholders to sell their shares to them which would give 10khrs the ability to turn the club into a fully fledged co-operative. There's just no practical way that this can.happen at present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your ideal is have the club being run as a co-operative, rather than the majority shareholding being run as a co-operative? St. Mirren is a ltd company and as such has it's own rules for appointing it's BOD. So for this reason, it's a practical impossibility for the club to be run as a co-operative. It would be my ideal for this to be the case but in the meantime the CIC is the best solution. I would hope that in future, once all the debt has been repaid that 10khrs would be in a position to attract enough minority shareholders to sell their shares to them which would give 10khrs the ability to turn the club into a fully fledged co-operative. There's just no practical way that this can.happen at present. That's my feeling as well. What we potentially start out with with what 10000hrs are putting forward isn't necessarily the way it will remain. That will be up to the punters. The way it should be. We, collectively, will have a big influence over everything. It's never going to be perfect because of the way the club is being sold here, but it's something that can, and will, be shaped in time to suit what we all want. Evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your ideal is have the club being run as a co-operative, rather than the majority shareholding being run as a co-operative? St. Mirren is a ltd company and as such has it's own rules for appointing it's BOD. So for this reason, it's a practical impossibility for the club to be run as a co-operative. It would be my ideal for this to be the case but in the meantime the CIC is the best solution. I would hope that in future, once all the debt has been repaid that 10khrs would be in a position to attract enough minority shareholders to sell their shares to them which would give 10khrs the ability to turn the club into a fully fledged co-operative. There's just no practical way that this can.happen at present. I have no interest in being a member of the CIC and if anyone tries to convert my shares in the club into shares in the CIC then that will be the day that I stop following St. Mirren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your ideal is have the club being run as a co-operative, rather than the majority shareholding being run as a co-operative? St. Mirren is a ltd company and as such has it's own rules for appointing it's BOD. So for this reason, it's a practical impossibility for the club to be run as a co-operative. It would be my ideal for this to be the case but in the meantime the CIC is the best solution. I would hope that in future, once all the debt has been repaid that 10khrs would be in a position to attract enough minority shareholders to sell their shares to them which would give 10khrs the ability to turn the club into a fully fledged co-operative. There's just no practical way that this can.happen at present. If a group/body purchase the 52% shreholding up for sale, then offer to convert the remaining 48% shareholding into equity in said co-operative then it can happen, from day one as the majority shareholder owning 52% the club can effectively be run as a co-operative (i.e. the majority shareholders decide the BoD and all the major decisions). How many of the other 48% that wish to convert to equity is up to them, they would still have shares in SMFC, but could exchange them for shares/equity in the fans co-operative if they so wished. Just like the current cic proposal really, they (52%) will run the club as they wish, the other 48% have only one BoD place guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 The ideal for me would be transaprency, inclusiveness and death to all sausage roll thieves. What we are getting is secrecy, sidelining of fans groups and a massive escalation in sausage roll thievary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Richard in todays Paisley Express inviting those who have questions to go along to the stadium tomorrow night at 7pm and ask any questions you want on the take over, Hope Sumner9 and Sid are there to put their views forward and get answers. You have your platform tomorrow night lads here is hoping you take your chance. If not it's time to shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Richard in todays Paisley Express inviting those who have questions to go along to the stadium tomorrow night at 7pm and ask any questions you want on the take over, Hope Sumner9 and Sid are there to put their views forward and get answers. You have your platform tomorrow night lads here is hoping you take your chance. If not it's time to shut up. Is there an opportunity for the people servicing the debt of said CiC (the shareholders) getting a vote on BoD make up, proper democratic process tomorrow night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 The ideal for me would be transaprency, inclusiveness and death to all sausage roll thieves. What we are getting is secrecy, sidelining of fans groups and a massive escalation in sausage roll thievary. In other word's,the same spiel you have be spitting out on every thread connected to 10000 hrs. Hasn't it twigged,you won't find the answer on here. Try Greenhill Rd. or SmiSa for their dark little secret and see if they will share it with us. You must have burnt out a few keyboards by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 So why not go along and put your question forward no one will put you down sumner9 ? Fully appreciate those who have shares dipped into their savings in our last our of need. I'm sure answers can be had for shareholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 The ideal for me would be transaprency, inclusiveness and death to all sausage roll thieves. What we are getting is secrecy, sidelining of fans groups and a massive escalation in sausage roll thievary. There you go with the sausage rolls again. Anyone would think you had shares in Greggs. the offering of sausage rolls is really only going to attract a low standard of applicant to the position - like your politicians. I suggest moving the standards upwards. Maybe if they at least moved up to offering a couple of slices of a Dominos pizza that may attract a better standard of candidate to the board positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 So why not go along and put your question forward no one will put you down sumner9 ? Fully appreciate those who have shares dipped into their savings in our last our of need. I'm sure answers can be had for shareholders. Right, so there is a vote on BoD seats, exec BoD and the big decisions tomorrrow night, cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Richard in todays Paisley Express inviting those who have questions to go along to the stadium tomorrow night at 7pm and ask any questions you want on the take over, Hope Sumner9 and Sid are there to put their views forward and get answers. You have your platform tomorrow night lads here is hoping you take your chance. If not it's time to shut up. LS, I have been to every one of the public meetings to date as well as attending a SMiSA meeting as Richard's guest. The issue is now about us asking questions, it is information being made available for us to base our questions on. Are you going to shout down anyone that raises any concerns tomorrow night - is your post an attempt to intimidate fans that express some reservations about the information being made available? You'll need to do a lot better than that to intimidate me ya bunnet. I will be there with a mind just as open as it has always been to the proposals. However, we do need more information. If you can explain to me in detail how this will work, what the risks are then we will all be able to sign up tomorrow. However, you can't - and it is worth reminding you of your previous anti-CIC views expressed on B&WArmy on this very BoD. Even better, specify exactly what it is SMISA are concerned about....you can't because you don't know. Once 10000 Hours provides us with full details of the CIC proposal then SMISA will be able to highlight their areas of concern. Ideally, we will go along tomorrow night and SMISA will be at the top table handing out forms for us all to sign up as they have been working with 10000 Hours to sort out whatever their concern is. GLS worked in the background with 10000 Hours to work out his issues. Perhaps we will all get a pleasant surprise tomorrow night? Keep an open mind Buddie - I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sid I would never shout down any fans who have a different view from myself on the take over. All I am saying is concerns should be brought up directly with the horses mouth tomorrow night. It's last chance salon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smtid 1 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 So is this the whole thing over then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 In other word's,the same spiel you have be spitting out on every thread connected to 10000 hrs. Hasn't it twigged,you won't find the answer on here. Try Greenhill Rd. or SmiSa for their dark little secret and see if they will share it with us. You must have burnt out a few keyboards by now. Why not....B&WArmy is as good a supporters group as any. Why wouldn't 10000 Hours who are also members of B&WArmy pay attention to requests made on here? If SMiSA are unable to get 10000 Hours to release the information they are concerned about to the public I doubt a single fan will have any better chance. Since I have been posting my concern along with other fans that have signed up to 10000 Hours we have seen an FAQ appear on the 10000 Hours web site - shite as the FAQ is, we have got a public meeting agreed and we have seen a number of press releases & interviews. Sadly all lacking in any great detail. Why aren't all fans getting the information provided to a small group representing SMiSA? And don't forget it was somner9's leaked SMISA doc that led to us getting the draft constitution. It is not SMISA that are being secretive here....they are simply asking us to avail oursleves of information relating to the CIC / SMFC and to study it before signing up. I believe that is worth us taking the trouble to do. Why can't we get that information? Transparency is not there, inclusiveness in not there. We all need to take responsibility for this decision. We seem to be leaving it to others to carry out the due dilligence on this. That is unfair on them, and a cop out by us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sid I would never shout down any fans who have a different view from myself on the take over. All I am saying is concerns should be brought up directly with the horses mouth tomorrow night. It's last chance salon. I don't see why it should be last chance saloon. LS. I have yet to see a sane explanation of the dealine. All we have is 10000 Hours fan-rallying team blaming it all on the big bad consortium. This in direct conflict with the additional message they are spouting about the consortium backing 10000 Hours. There is absolutely nothing to stop us requesting more time to review the information provided. The last chance saloon is nothing more than a sales tactic to try and close the deal before we get a chance to consider the new offering properly. It is another example of the fans being treated as external conumers of the CIC rather than being a funding partner. Start the meeting tomorrow night with a simple - shove yer deadline up yer arse and see what happens. Time to stop being patsies managed by dodgy sales techniques and start behaving like empowered fans. 10000 Hours needs out commitment, the consortium need our commitment to get their pay out, GLS is in a win-win situation as he was quick enough to tell us the CIC was shite when it didn't suit him. The fans need to look after the fans interests now. The fans interest is the security of the club and making the right choice for the club. We need the information in order to do that. We need time to review the information and make an informed choice. This isn't the last chance saloon - this is the point of no return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Why not....B&WArmy is as good a supporters group as any. Why wouldn't 10000 Hours who are also members of B&WArmy pay attention to requests made on here? If SMiSA are unable to get 10000 Hours to release the information they are concerned about to the public I doubt a single fan will have any better chance. Since I have been posting my concern along with other fans that have signed up to 10000 Hours we have seen an FAQ appear on the 10000 Hours web site - shite as the FAQ is, we have got a public meeting agreed and we have seen a number of press releases & interviews. Sadly all lacking in any great detail. Why aren't all fans getting the information provided to a small group representing SMiSA? And don't forget it was somner9's leaked SMISA doc that led to us getting the draft constitution. It is not SMISA that are being secretive here....they are simply asking us to avail oursleves of information relating to the CIC / SMFC and to study it before signing up. I believe that is worth us taking the trouble to do. Why can't we get that information? Transparency is not there, inclusiveness in not there. We all need to take responsibility for this decision. We seem to be leaving it to others to carry out the due dilligence on this. That is unfair on them, and a cop out by us. What leaked smisa doc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 What leaked smisa doc? Mibbae it wisnae you....I am sure some creepy type will dig out the original post....From memory I think it was a letter from SMISA pointing out their disappointment in relation to communication with them, and their not being supplied with the copy of the draft constitution they requested. The shit constitution appeared not long after it sparked a bit of debate on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Back on topic and to push it on a wee bit with a slightly different question...... Fans raise over £1.5Million - we go to SMFC and say....we'd like to give you all this cash......what will you give us in return? Hmmm...let's see - how about we take all of your £1.5Million +, and we create a company once removed from SMFC and all you fans can vote for cnuts to go on it. However, we will let a chap who isn't a St Mirren supporter have overall control of it. Oh aye....and we'll let a 3rd party build a pub where you can buy drink off of them. There's also some other guys that are putting in £250K so we are going to give them all of the benefits as well as a non-exec BoD...oh aye and you are also going to have to pay back their £250K as well at some point in the future. Bite their hand off so we would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoWSaint Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Back on topic and to push it on a wee bit with a slightly different question...... Fans raise over £1.5Million - we go to SMFC and say....we'd like to give you all this cash......what will you give us in return? Hmmm...let's see - how about we take all of your £1.5Million +, and we create a company once removed from SMFC and all you fans can vote for cnuts to go on it. However, we will let a chap who isn't a St Mirren supporter have overall control of it. Oh aye....and we'll let a 3rd party build a pub where you can buy drink off of them. There's also some other guys that are putting in £250K so we are going to give them all of the benefits as well as a non-exec BoD...oh aye and you are also going to have to pay back their £250K as well at some point in the future. Bite their hand off so we would. You forgot the bit about the fans having all the decision making power at the club. Some might say that is priceless. And having it all paid off in 8 years, possibly less, is pretty good for something that valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 You forgot the bit about the fans having all the decision making power at the club. Some might say that is priceless. It would be priceless; however that is not being offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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