The Referendum Thread

[bluto]

No they did not. The only people consulted, who had little or no interest in Scotland's well being, were London centric politicians and advisors.

You're suggesting that you know that Scottish politicians, ( once they get power), ignore their roots, ignore their electorate and find new friends in the office?

A. How do you know that?

B. Does the same thing happen to all politicians who go to Holyrood?

C. Does a Yes vote mean Embra, like London, will grow into a bloated city state sucking all the power to itself?

D. What then? Devo-max for every post code?

[saintnextlifetime]

You're suggesting that you know that Scottish politicians, ( once they get power), ignore their roots, ignore their electorate and find new friends in the office?

A. How do you know that?

B. Does the same thing happen to all politicians who go to Holyrood?

C. Does a Yes vote mean Embra, like London, will grow into a bloated city state sucking all the power to itself?

D. What then? Devo-max for every post code?

We are moving towards , the Greater Paisley Democracy of Buddies , geographically , this region will, encompass the area where traditionally Saint Mirren fans come from i.e Paisley , Renfrew , Elderslie , Johnstone etc. Constituents in the area wont have to be fans of Paisley Saint Mirren F.C , but being a fan will help . Suddenly , season tickets will become valid , Steven Thompson will be the First Minister and mass voting will be held at Greenhill road , on important issues , just before kick=off , 3pm , Saturdays. .

[Edinbuddie]

So Stu Dick, Maximilion & Lex are voting no... I think I've made my decision

[oaksoft]

In the modern, integrated and interdependent world, you need to learn how to compromise, how to get along... And for all it's flaws, democracy is currently the best system on offer.

WTF are you talking about?

Who is talking about the end of democracy?

As for your weird bit about compromise and getting along……when you left home to gain your independence did you immediately fall out with your parents and stop talking to them? Did your relationship suffer as a direct result? Or like most people did things change in some ways but largely for the better? Or are you one of those guys who pines to live with mummy once more?

[oaksoft]

There's a lot of contempt for Scots and our ability to run our own affairs competently on this thread.

Quite an unbelievable amount of self loathing.

This is the problem with too many Scots.

All mouth and no real bottle when it comes to taking responsibility.

It's depressing.

[oaksoft]

So Stu Dick, Maximilion & Lex are voting no... I think I've made my decision

Stu Dick, Max and Lex are voting no because they are physically incapable of separating the independence vote from the SNP and Salmond himself.

Utter obsession.

[bluto]

WTF are you talking about?

Who is talking about the end of democracy?

As for your weird bit about compromise and getting along……when you left home to gain your independence did you immediately fall out with your parents and stop talking to them? Did your relationship suffer as a direct result? Or like most people did things change in some ways but largely for the better? Or are you one of those guys who pines to live with mummy once more?

Apart from you deflecting from, and thus ignoring the points I made, she died long ago. So, it seems YOU are the expert on 'weird'...

Edited November 5, 2013 by bluto

[bluto]

So Stu Dick, Maximilion & Lex are voting no... I think I've made my decision

Fair point.

I recognised last night, that I'd not been keeping with the best of company when Dixon posted a response similar to mine to the same post at the same time...

[Stuart Dickson]

There's a lot of contempt for Scots and our ability to run our own affairs competently on this thread.

Quite an unbelievable amount of self loathing.

This is the problem with too many Scots.

All mouth and no real bottle when it comes to taking responsibility.

It's depressing.

And there it is again - when on the ropes the Natsis always accuse those who won't vote their way of cowardice. We've seen similar campaign all through history Yet in history the opposite is always true. It's those who stand up to the bully in the face or their goading, who show true courage.

[Lex]

There's a lot of contempt for Scots and our ability to run our own affairs competently on this thread.

Quite an unbelievable amount of self loathing.

This is the problem with too many Scots.

All mouth and no real bottle when it comes to taking responsibility.

It's depressing.

You keep contradicting yourself and ignoring the points made. You said earlier in the thread words to the effect of Scottish people are too scared to make the right decision, and that's why a no vote will win. Yet now you're accusing other people of contempt with regards to running their own affairs? Do you see the contradiction?

You're also ignoring the obvious point of a vote for independence resulting in less representation on key issues effecting Scotland.

Stu Dick, Max and Lex are voting no because they are physically incapable of separating the independence vote from the SNP and Salmond himself.

Utter obsession.

You've just completely made that up. I am a big admirer of Alex Salmond and i think he is one of the most effective politicians in the UK, and his parties results in the 2010 Scottish Parliament elections reflect this. He's streets ahead of any other politician in Holyrood, that's for sure, and if i vote in the Scottish Parliament elections in 2015 i will vote SNP.

The reason i and most others are voting no is nothing to do with Alex Salmond and the SNP, it's because remaining part of the union is in the best interests of Scotland.

[salmonbuddie]

Why is it that many of the same people who tell us we're "Better Together" are the same people who tell us that we should leave the EU?

And if the Euro is such a clusterf**k of a currency, why hasn't it lost ground against the pound in recent years?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

It dropped from roughly 1.50/1.00 about 6 years ago to a low of 1.03 in 2009 and recovered to, and currently sits, around the 1.20 mark (no pun intended). So, for the last 4 years, it has maintained more or less the same level against the pound while it went through economic mayhem.

[zurich_allan]

Why is it that many of the same people who tell us we're "Better Together" are the same people who tell us that we should leave the EU?

And if the Euro is such a clusterf**k of a currency, why hasn't it lost ground against the pound in recent years?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

It dropped from roughly 1.50/1.00 about 6 years ago to a low of 1.03 in 2009 and recovered to, and currently sits, around the 1.20 mark (no pun intended). So, for the last 4 years, it has maintained more or less the same level against the pound while it went through economic mayhem.

This is common knowledge within the European Union. The UK has spent more in terms of percentage GDP bailing out our own banks than the rest of the EU has bailing out theirs. Jose Manuel Barroso had a right go (and correctly so) at David Cameron earlier this year for his anti-Euro spin on the currency / economy issue.

And I'm currently in favour of staying part of the UK, but even earlier in this thread emphasised that we NEED to maintain EU membership, whether as part of the UK or as an independent State.

Edited November 5, 2013 by zurich_allan

[salmonbuddie]

It's one of the main reasons I'm a Yes voter, I've believed for some time now that I'd rather we had the same influence in the EU that we do at Westminster - UK policy wrt the EU isn't always in Scotland's best interests.

And there's a fair chance a referendum will be forced on the coalition following the next election which could lead to the UK leaving the EU. I don't want any part of that decision and I'n confident that a similar vote in an independent Scotland would see us remain in the EU.

[Lex]

Why is it that many of the same people who tell us we're "Better Together" are the same people who tell us that we should leave the EU?

And if the Euro is such a clusterf**k of a currency, why hasn't it lost ground against the pound in recent years?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

It dropped from roughly 1.50/1.00 about 6 years ago to a low of 1.03 in 2009 and recovered to, and currently sits, around the 1.20 mark (no pun intended). So, for the last 4 years, it has maintained more or less the same level against the pound while it went through economic mayhem.

I certainly don't believe we should leave the EU. We can debate the nuances of the Euro all day long, but it's not relevant in this thread. You've made a basic error of citing exchange rates as examples of economic stability though.

The problem with the Euro is simple. You can't have one currency with several hugely different fiscal policies within the member states. For example you have Germany who are frugal and spending wisely with sound economic policies, and you have Greece who are pissing money up against the wall with an economic policy written on the back of a fag packet.

So when Greece run out of money Germany needed to bail them out to prevent the collapse of the Euro, which they did. However the Germans wisely put fiscal policy conditions on that bailout. This effectively means the German government and Angela Merkel are having a direct influence on Greek fiscal policy, despite not being Greek nor being elected by the Greek people. If it wasn't for the Germans propping up the economy of other countries within the Euro zone with bailouts the currency would have collapsed long ago. Clusterf**k indeed.

If you're going to have one currency you need a common fiscal policy within all member states, or at the very least strict parameters in which member states must operate fiscally. Yet this could never and will never happen in Europe, you'll never have Greek people happy to have their tax rates set in Brussels by French and German politicians, hence the Euro as a currency is doomed to failure.

The EU serves a purpose as a free trade agreement similar to NAFTA. This is what it was originally meant to do, and this is what it should have stayed doing. It should exist as something to encourage and facilitate free trade between member states with minimal regulation, not as a policy making entity.

[Lex]

It's one of the main reasons I'm a Yes voter, I've believed for some time now that I'd rather we had the same influence in the EU that we do at Westminster - UK policy wrt the EU isn't always in Scotland's best interests.

And there's a fair chance a referendum will be forced on the coalition following the next election which could lead to the UK leaving the EU. I don't want any part of that decision and I'n confident that a similar vote in an independent Scotland would see us remain in the EU.

How can we have the same influence in the EU that we do in Westminster? Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU with no problems - which is far from guaranteed - we will have what, 6 MEP's out of 760?

This is less than 10th of the representation we have in Westminster.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Lex

[Bart Simpson]

How can we have the same influence in the EU that we do in Westminster? Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU with no problems - which is far from guaranteed - we will have what, 6 MEP's out of 760?

This is less than 10th of the representation we have in Westminster.

We would have greater control over our own affairs though.

Broad sweeping statements unfortunately only serve to antagonise it would appear. I personally believe that the majority of Scots aren't yet really for self determination in the fullest sense of independence. Part of this will be down to fear of the unknown, part not wanting to rock the boat and for others a whole myriad of other reasons. However, whilst not old enough to comment comprehensively on the 1st devolution referendum, recent history would suggest that regardless of your own views collectively we are starting to demonstrate a want to make our own decisions and the need for more local decision making powers. The difference in the increase in vote for devolution over the 20-30 years between two votes demonstrates this, as does the fact that a previously marginal party are now in majority government in Holyrood.

I think currency issues are a valid point, but the difficulty comes with the British Government potentially quite rightly saying "it is our ball and you're not playing with it" however what is there to stop Scotland maintaining its own currency an therefore currency union with the rest of the UK whilst exercising our own political will?

I'm sure the legal ramifications are fascinating to those with any interest in them, however we already have our own legal, school, university and health systems to name a few, so why not have complete autonomy?

As above I'm not sure enough of the population is convinced yet, but I think it is coming and in another generation's time there may well indeed be a very different result.

[salmonbuddie]

 

 

I certainly don't believe we should leave the EU.  We can debate the nuances of the Euro all day long, but it's not relevant in this thread.  You've made a basic error of citing exchange rates as examples of economic stability though.

 

The problem with the Euro is simple.  You can't have one currency with several hugely different fiscal policies within the member states.  For example you have Germany who are frugal and spending wisely with sound economic policies, and you have Greece who are pissing money up against the wall with an economic policy written on the back of a fag packet.

 

So when Greece run out of money Germany needed to bail them out to prevent the collapse of the Euro, which they did.  However the Germans wisely put fiscal policy conditions on that bailout.  This effectively means the German government and Angela Merkel are having a direct influence on Greek fiscal policy, despite not being Greek nor being elected by the Greek people.  If it wasn't for the Germans propping up the economy of other countries within the Euro zone with bailouts the currency would have collapsed long ago.  Clusterf**k indeed.

 

If you're going to have one currency you need a common fiscal policy within all member states, or at the very least strict parameters in which member states must operate fiscally.  Yet this could never and will never happen in Europe, you'll never have Greek people happy to have their tax rates set in Brussels by French and German politicians, hence the Euro as a currency is doomed to failure.

 

The EU serves a purpose as a free trade agreement similar to NAFTA.  This is what it was originally meant to do, and this is what it should have stayed doing.  It should exist as something to encourage and facilitate free trade between member states with minimal regulation, not as a policy making entity.

I'm not an economist, just trying to understand. To sum up, Germany has been bailing out the entire Eurozone for the past 2 or 3 years? I can't believe the markets would buy that and not make themselves a fortune by some kind of run on the currency, it's the nature of the beast.

Staying with Sterling temporarily until the decision is made about the currency (whatever that future currency may be) is the eminently sensible and proven route to follow.

[oaksoft]

This is common knowledge within the European Union. The UK has spent more in terms of percentage GDP bailing out our own banks than the rest of the EU has bailing out theirs. Jose Manuel Barroso had a right go (and correctly so) at David Cameron earlier this year for his anti-Euro spin on the currency / economy issue. And I'm currently in favour of staying part of the UK, but even earlier in this thread emphasised that we NEED to maintain EU membership, whether as part of the UK or as an independent State.

It shouldn't fill you with confidence then that it's highly likely that this decision about whether to remain in the EU or not will be made largely by voters in England (through sheer numbers) after the next UK election assuming the Tories are in control. Isn't this exactly the sort of thing Scots should be deciding for themselves?

[salmonbuddie]

How can we have the same influence in the EU that we do in Westminster? Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU with no problems - which is far from guaranteed - we will have what, 6 MEP's out of 760?

This is less than 10th of the representation we have in Westminster.

We will have more of a say in the matters directly affecting us than we do at the moment - fishing rights, anyone?

Eta - we're as guaranteed a place as rUK is. We're currently EU citizens, does anyone seriously believe there's any doubt we wouldn't still be EU citizens?

Edited November 5, 2013 by salmonbuddie

[oaksoft]

We would have greater control over our own affairs though.

Broad sweeping statements unfortunately only serve to antagonise it would appear. I personally believe that the majority of Scots aren't yet really for self determination in the fullest sense of independence. Part of this will be down to fear of the unknown, part not wanting to rock the boat and for others a whole myriad of other reasons. However, whilst not old enough to comment comprehensively on the 1st devolution referendum, recent history would suggest that regardless of your own views collectively we are starting to demonstrate a want to make our own decisions and the need for more local decision making powers. The difference in the increase in vote for devolution over the 20-30 years between two votes demonstrates this, as does the fact that a previously marginal party are now in majority government in Holyrood.

I think currency issues are a valid point, but the difficulty comes with the British Government potentially quite rightly saying "it is our ball and you're not playing with it" however what is there to stop Scotland maintaining its own currency an therefore currency union with the rest of the UK whilst exercising our own political will?

I'm sure the legal ramifications are fascinating to those with any interest in them, however we already have our own legal, school, university and health systems to name a few, so why not have complete autonomy?

As above I'm not sure enough of the population is convinced yet, but I think it is coming and in another generation's time there may well indeed be a very different result.

There's an inevitability about it but like you I think this has come too soon for most voters.

If you give people power they'll want more - it's human nature.

It's why we leave the safety of our parents home when we reach 18 despite the risks.

Having control over your life gives you freedom and people will do virtually anything for freedom.

We'll either have independence or an unstoppable desire for more powers which will have to come to prevent another independence vote in 5-10 years time.

Like it or not, the empire will simply have to hand it's powers back.

It's the way of things.

[oaksoft]

We will have more of a say in the matters directly affecting us than we do at the moment - fishing rights, anyone?

Eta - we're as guaranteed a place as rUK is. We're currently EU citizens, does anyone seriously believe there's any doubt we wouldn't still be EU citizens?

The EU application thing is just political bullshit.

There's absolutely no way the EU would allow part of a current member to be kicked out under ANY circumstances.

It's not in anyone's interests.

Just in the same way it's not in anyone's interest to start charging mobile phone roaming fees when you go to England or to deny Scotland the right to retain the monarchy or the pound or a seat within NATO.

[salmonbuddie]

Unless you're trying to influence a referendum.....

[bluto]

Just in the same way it's not in anyone's interest to start charging mobile phone roaming fees when you go to England or to deny Scotland the right to retain the monarchy or the pound or a seat within NATO.

And in much the same way as...

... it's no one's interest every few years to waste so much energy, time and money to hold ineffectual referenda, simply in order to satisfy the whingings of a few Nationalists who blame everyone but themselves for their own inadequacies?

And every time those referenda show that most Scots are out of alignment with those who aspire to a so called separation.

You are quite right, oaksoft - once again it has come too soon. Once again it will be not in anyone's interest.

Such a waste.

[salmonbuddie]

Democracy in action, bluto, the people of Scotland elected a party that said they would hold a referendum as part of their manifesto. They're keeping a manifesto promise - another example of how Scotland differs from the UK.

[Kendo]

The only reason that the Clyde shipyard is being saved is because we have a vote for an independent Scotland next year. Had this not been the case it would have been closed in the blink of an eye and the work moved to Portsmouth. Well done Alex Salmond and the SNP