The Referendum Thread

[salmonbuddie]

 

How can you claim there is a reasoned argument underpinning it when you haven't negotiated a currency, a place in the EU, NATO or any of the other major planks of Independence? Who was it on here who claimed that a major plank of propaganda is to keep repeating the same old lie in order that people start believing it? Isn't that exactly what the SNP are doing with their assumptions? 

 

We're already in Sterling, the EU - I'm an EU citizen, that won't change - and NATO, why do we need to negotiate any more than rUK does?

[Drew]

If the SNP can't get Westminister to entertain them with talks about using Sterling, then surely the prudent thing to do would be to seek alternative options like having our own currency. What is it about real Independence that has the SNP diving for cover?

Quick question: if England opted to become independent, could Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland refuse to let them use the pound?

[Stuart Dickson]

We're already in Sterling, the EU - I'm an EU citizen, that won't change - and NATO, why do we need to negotiate any more than rUK does?

Of course it changes. Everything changes. Just look at what happened at the old Yugoslavia. Did Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina all just carry on with the same political and monetary agreements that Yugoslavia had? Did they f**k!

What is it that you natsis are running scared of though Salmonbuddie? Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be like Norway so why not go it alone like they do? Have your own currency and tell the EU you may seek membership in the future after you hold a referendum on whether Scots want to join the EU and the ERM. After all Scotland has so much oil and it's going to sell worldwide anyway whether or not we have trade agreements in place.

[Stuart Dickson]

Quick question: if England opted to become independent, could Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland refuse to let them use the pound?

Possibly. I haven't given it much thought if I'm honest Drew. I guess I would presume that the English would want sole control of their fiscal affairs though - as we've seen with the majority of English voters clearly reluctant to adopt the Euro. If that meant them scrapping Sterling to create their own currency I'm sure they would deem that as preferable to allowing a foreign country to pull all their fiscal levers for them.

[Stuart Dickson]

Which part of "we don't need permission from anyone to keep using Sterling" isn't clear?

It's a lie - obviously. For a start you will need the permission of the Monarch to use the currency never mind the Bank of England, or the Royal Mint never mind the ascent of any political institution.

[bud77]

A hell of a lot of hand-wringing whatiffery in there.

I think, as a nation, its about time we collectively grew a set.

We should start with the SNP growing a set and giving us a real, fully costed independence option with all the pros and cons, getting rid of the parastitic royal family, stay or leave the EU, using our own currency. Instead we have a half arsed, nothing will really change, back of a fag packet option.

Which part of "we don't need permission from anyone to keep using Sterling" isn't clear?

We don't need permission but economic policies would depend on what the Bank of England do regarding interest rates, inflation etc. At very best we might have a quarter of the seats at the table and I wouldn't think Ireland or Wales would vote in Scotland's favour.

We're already in Sterling, the EU - I'm an EU citizen, that won't change - and NATO, why do we need to negotiate any more than rUK does?

So we'll be independent but nothing will really change. That's like the teenager telling his parents he's leaving home but he'll be back every night for dinner and he'll sit all night watching the telly with them.

[stlucifer]

How can you claim there is a reasoned argument underpinning it when you haven't negotiated a currency, a place in the EU, NATO or any of the other major planks of Independence? Who was it on here who claimed that a major plank of propaganda is to keep repeating the same old lie in order that people start believing it? Isn't that exactly what the SNP are doing with their assumptions?

Apparently the white paper has the same number of pages as Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. I'm finding Jakey Rowlings version to be much more factual if I'm honest. Even the idea of a wizard flying around on a broomstick chasing a golden snitch in a game of Quidditch sounds more grounded in reality than some of this pish.....

The bit in bold negates the rest Stu!

[salmonbuddie]

 

So we'll be independent but nothing will really change. That's like the teenager telling his parents he's leaving home but he'll be back every night for dinner and he'll sit all night watching the telly with them.

Not in the short term, no, and that's the point. Nothing will change until there is a general election and the people of Scotland vote for whatever policies they think the country should adopt. Think of it as someone who's left home as a student - plenty of those bring washing back to their parents and to be fed. For the first couple of years, anyway.

[bluto]

Which part of "we don't need permission from anyone to keep using Sterling" isn't clear?

Would they not need permission to continue printing Scots banknotes? And if they wanted to keep printing Scots banknotes without such permission, (which would mean the UK govt would not be supporting them), would an International currency markets support the Scottish banknotes?

Or would those particular bits of paper lose value against the real banknotes?

[bud77]

Not in the short term, no, and that's the point. Nothing will change until there is a general election and the people of Scotland vote for whatever policies they think the country should adopt. Think of it as someone who's left home as a student - plenty of those bring washing back to their parents and to be fed. For the first couple of years, anyway.

Ah so that's why the SNP manifesto was published today. Or in other words the white paper is a load of nonsense unless the SNP were to be elected as the first government of an independent Scotland.

Try to think of it more as the student leaving home and the parents changing the locks, do you seriously think England, Ireland and Wales will hold our hand and do our washing when Salmond and Sturgeon have been sticking two fingers up at them for years.

[bluto]

Not in the short term, no, and that's the point. Nothing will change until there is a general election and the people of Scotland vote for whatever policies they think the country should adopt. Think of it as someone who's left home as a student - plenty of those bring washing back to their parents and to be fed. For the first couple of years, anyway.

I think I addressed that 'analogy' a while back on here. Many parents are happy to see their kids leave and would support and continue to love them.

These would be separate and supposedly now independent countries - different economic entities. I can see little logic to support such an apparently benign and understanding short term.

[oaksoft]

Of course it changes. Everything changes. Just look at what happened at the old Yugoslavia. Did Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina all just carry on with the same political and monetary agreements that Yugoslavia had? Did they f**k!

What is it that you natsis are running scared of though Salmonbuddie? Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be like Norway so why not go it alone like they do? Have your own currency and tell the EU you may seek membership in the future after you hold a referendum on whether Scots want to join the EU and the ERM. After all Scotland has so much oil and it's going to sell worldwide anyway whether or not we have trade agreements in place.

It beggars belief that you can equate Scottish independence with what happened in the Balkans after years of civil war.

[oaksoft]

We should start with the SNP growing a set and giving us a real, fully costed independence option with all the pros and cons, getting rid of the parastitic royal family, stay or leave the EU, using our own currency. Instead we have a half arsed, nothing will really change, back of a fag packet option.

As was said this morning, if it's the back of a fag packet then it's a hell of a big fag packet.

[oaksoft]

Ah so that's why the SNP manifesto was published today. Or in other words the white paper is a load of nonsense unless the SNP were to be elected as the first government of an independent Scotland.

Try to think of it more as the student leaving home and the parents changing the locks, do you seriously think England, Ireland and Wales will hold our hand and do our washing when Salmond and Sturgeon have been sticking two fingers up at them for years.

Do you seriously think the rest of the UK are going to engage in a deliberate attempt to sabotage Scotland at every turn for having the audacity to become independent?

You'll need to explain to me why it's in England's interests to see Scotland jettisoned from NATO, EU and Sterling.

[oaksoft]

I think I addressed that 'analogy' a while back on here. Many parents are happy to see their kids leave and would support and continue to love them.

These would be separate and supposedly now independent countries - different economic entities. I can see little logic to support such an apparently benign and understanding short term.

So you also think it would be in England's interests to see Scotland go down the pan on an issue like this?

I suppose you could offer a single reason why this would be good for London.

[linwood buddie]

Possibly. I haven't given it much thought if I'm honest Drew. I guess I would presume that the English would want sole control of their fiscal affairs though - as we've seen with the majority of English voters clearly reluctant to adopt the Euro. If that meant them scrapping Sterling to create their own currency I'm sure they would deem that as preferable to allowing a foreign country to pull all their fiscal levers for them.

Like the White Paper revealing that the BOE will still set interest rates.

[bluto]

So you also think it would be in England's interests to see Scotland go down the pan on an issue like this?

I suppose you could offer a single reason why this would be good for London.

It's not a matter of wishing to see a nation go down the pan, but if it seeks independence then surely that will be what it gets: the ability to raise its own taxes and distribute them for the benfit of its own people.

In the same way, I would expect the Government here to use our taxes for the benefit of our citizens and not expect it to subsidise Scottish things that are unsubsidised in this country. eg student fees, Seniors care, another bridge over the Thames a hundred or so metres from an existing bridge, a ridiculously self-aggrandised Parliament...

It's called self-governing Independence for a reason...

Why are you dissing every query raised by bleating about the possible ramifications of your desired decision? If you want it, I fully support your desire to have it.

[bud77]

Do you seriously think the rest of the UK are going to engage in a deliberate attempt to sabotage Scotland at every turn for having the audacity to become independent?

You'll need to explain to me why it's in England's interests to see Scotland jettisoned from NATO, EU and Sterling.

First, would you explain to me why a debate about Scotland's independence has suddenly become about Scotland versus England ? If I remember right there are currently 4 nations in the UK, 22 nations in EU and 28 nations in NATO. Do you seriously think that every one of those countries is going to say of course to everything in the SNP manifesto ? Don't you think that NATO might make it a stipulation of membership that trident has to stay at Faslane for tactical reasons and how would the SNP react to that given they have pledged to get rid of trident within 4 years ? Spain, for one, have already stated they would argue against Scotland joining the EU as they have their own separatist movement, other countries might well have their own reasons for rejecting Scotland's EU application or putting conditions on it. As for the UK, the other 3 nations would put their interests before Scotland's when it comes to the fiscal policy of the Bank of England, border controls if Scotland significantly changes immigration policy (which the SNP have stated would happen). It would not be sabotage, it would merely be a case of putting the UK, EU or NATO interests first. Just as Nicola Sturgeon admitted today that she has put the SNP interest first by not already having free child care,

[exiledfan]

I don't get a vote lived out of Scotland too long, however kids will get a vote who will likely be easily swayed by this from SNP.

All I can really say us all what and no how in this.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I don't get a vote lived out of Scotland too long, however kids will get a vote who will likely be easily swayed by this from SNP.

All I can really say us all what and no how in this.

No offence meant , but gonnae say it again

[oaksoft]

First, would you explain to me why a debate about Scotland's independence has suddenly become about Scotland versus England ?

Because rightly or wrongly, English voters overwhelmingly outvote every other nation in the UK which is why we have a Tory government when Scotland and Wales jointly voted overwhelmingly for Labour. English MP's totally dominate Westminster.

You can dress this up as 4 countries if you want but make no mistake - the UK is considered to be England by virtually everyone in the world.

BTW there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of England putting up border controls at Gretna or anywhere else. It simply isn't in their interests to do this from a business, social or economic perspective.

Edited November 26, 2013 by oaksoft

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So we'll keep the pound and might even get a say in the Bank of England. What happens when the UK needs to increase interest rates but it's not in Scotland's best interests - Scotland will be outvoted.

If things get that back you allow your interest rates and currency to be independent of bank of england. It could still be called the pound

What happens at the moment when interest rates rise and fall in line with what the city of london or south east housing bubble demands. Scotland and rest of uk suffer

We'll increase immigration to make sure that pensions can be paid, except the UK are clamping down on immigration. Will someone who lives in Gretna and works in Carlise have to go through passport control twice a day? What happens to my pension if these immigrants fail to come ?

Independence means not being part of the UK and having the ability to set your own policy on migration, its already been established that there wont be border checks between the 2 countries, similar to much of mainland europe. Have you actually thought what will happen to your pension by staying in UK? At least the white paper sets out a plans to deal with pensions over the next few decades.

The biggest assumption of all is that the SNP would form the first independent government, they have been failing to govern since the referendum was announced as clearly stated by Nicola Sturgeon - 'we could have free child care now except the revenue would go to the UK'.

The devolved parliament has the ability to alter child care arrangements however they cant fund this as the extra taxation raised (NI & Income tax of additional workers) would currently be sent to exchequer in London. Its a bit like oil revenues

What happens if NATO turn round and say 'if you want to be a member you have to keep trident' ?

Really??? Why would they when the weapons can be stored in a country that actually wants them. Is this whataboutery, f**kwittery or scaremongering

If taxes are not going to increase how will the set up costs be met ? Loans ? At what interest rate ? For how long ?

By having control over all finances raised in Scotland. Dont believe the lies that we are subsidy junkies

What happens if the EU turn round and say 'You can still be a member but here's the conditions' ?

You negotiate. What happens if they tell UK we have to join euro or lose vetos. What happens if uk (including Scotland) vote to leave. What happens if...

Why should we keep a foreigner as head of state ?

Why does the UK have one at the moment

Maybe someone who lives in Australia, or any of the many other commonwealth countries who have Lizzie as head of state could answer this. I suspect the answer is it doesnt make any difference. In a democratic nation we could lose the royal family if enough people vote for a republic - again look at Australia.

Why is the most secretive (check out the number of times they have refused freedom of information requests, inclusing the tale of Alex's tartan trews) assembly since it began not introducing a second elected chamber to hold the government to account ?

really??? you want another tier of government Its always something that you could campaign for - there's more likelihood of change in a small nation than the uk. Small nation democracy

BTW, if its denying of FOI requests look no further than the BBC..

[bud77]

So we'll keep the pound and might even get a say in the Bank of England. What happens when the UK needs to increase interest rates but it's not in Scotland's best interests - Scotland will be outvoted.

If things get that back you allow your interest rates and currency to be independent of bank of england. It could still be called the pound

What happens at the moment when interest rates rise and fall in line with what the city of london or south east housing bubble demands. Scotland and rest of uk suffer

According to the manifesto issued today, it will be pound sterling, there is no plan B. Try again.

We'll increase immigration to make sure that pensions can be paid, except the UK are clamping down on immigration. Will someone who lives in Gretna and works in Carlise have to go through passport control twice a day? What happens to my pension if these immigrants fail to come ?

Independence means not being part of the UK and having the ability to set your own policy on migration, its already been established that there wont be border checks between the 2 countries, similar to much of mainland europe. Have you actually thought what will happen to your pension by staying in UK? At least the white paper sets out a plans to deal with pensions over the next few decades.

Has it ? Because Alex says so, I've not heard anyone from the UK say there will be no border controls. The SNP plan to cover pensions, bring in migrant workers to pay for it. And what happens if these migrant workers don't come.

The biggest assumption of all is that the SNP would form the first independent government, they have been failing to govern since the referendum was announced as clearly stated by Nicola Sturgeon - 'we could have free child care now except the revenue would go to the UK'.

The devolved parliament has the ability to alter child care arrangements however they cant fund this as the extra taxation raised (NI & Income tax of additional workers) would currently be sent to exchequer in London. Its a bit like oil revenues

In other words the SNP are using free child care as a political bribe and it will only be if Scotland is independent.

What happens if NATO turn round and say 'if you want to be a member you have to keep trident' ?

Really??? Why would they when the weapons can be stored in a country that actually wants them. Is this whataboutery, f**kwittery or scaremongering

If taxes are not going to increase how will the set up costs be met ? Loans ? At what interest rate ? For how long ?

By having control over all finances raised in Scotland. Dont believe the lies that we are subsidy junkies

How will Scotland have control over all finances when fiscal policy will be set in accordance with the Bank of England or the ECB or will it be the US federal reserve ?

What happens if the EU turn round and say 'You can still be a member but here's the conditions' ?

You negotiate. What happens if they tell UK we have to join euro or lose vetos. What happens if uk (including Scotland) vote to leave. What happens if...

Do you seriously think even the tories will have that referendum ? That was all about Cameron stopping his backbenchers rebelling

Why should we keep a foreigner as head of state ?

Why does the UK have one at the moment

Maybe someone who lives in Australia, or any of the many other commonwealth countries who have Lizzie as head of state could answer this. I suspect the answer is it doesnt make any difference. In a democratic nation we could lose the royal family if enough people vote for a republic - again look at Australia.

Why aren't we been given the option at the outset or even a proper constitution ?

Why is the most secretive (check out the number of times they have refused freedom of information requests, inclusing the tale of Alex's tartan trews) assembly since it began not introducing a second elected chamber to hold the government to account ?

really??? you want another tier of government Its always something that you could campaign for - there's more likelihood of change in a small nation than the uk. Small nation democracy

BTW, if its denying of FOI requests look no further than the BBC..

When the assembly that promised to be the most transparent has been the one to have the most refusals of freedom of information request,, yes I do otherwise all we'll get is the usual SNP refusal to answer any questions.

The Scottish government have refused or failed to respond to 32% of the complaints received by the information commissioner. Including telling the people why Alex Salmond claimed £200 expenses for a pair of tartan trews while in China. He did pay the expenses back but only after the information became public that he had forgotten to pack his own trews and needed a pair for a dinner.Or what about the freedom of information request regarding what legal advice the government had received about remaining a member of the EU, again it was refused and it was only after the commissioner got involved that we discovered that despite what we were all led to believe, there had been no legal advice.

[oaksoft]

New poll today shows this vote is going to be closer than people think.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333

No in the lead 47% to 38% with 15% to decide.

IMO this will go to the wire. It's pretty much exactly where Labour were at the last Scottish election and we know what happened next.

Edited November 26, 2013 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

New poll today shows this vote is going to be closer than people think.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333

 

No in the lead 47% to 38% with 15% to decide.

 

IMO this will go to the wire. It's pretty much exactly where Labour were at the last Scottish election and we know what happened next.

No chance Oaksoft. Today is the high point for the independence campaign. From here on in every single point in their manifesto is going to be questioned, ripped apart and the SNP credibility will be flushed down the toilet