The Referendum Thread

[oaksoft]

What I would add there regarding education Oaksoft though is that just not charging for tertiary education hasn't and isn't giving equal opportunities. Quite the opposite, due to the lack of finance coming in, there have been unwanted forced mergers, redundancies, and closed opportunities at all levels of tertiary education. Evening classes have all but vanished meaning that full time workers looking for education are struggling to find it, highers are no longer being offered by the vast majority of Colleges, with the rest giving a hugely reduced amount. Age discriminatory policies are in place now for entry to a variety of courses including nursing (discriminating againts both younger potential students and / or older depending on the course in question).

Things are being stretched to breaking point in education.

The same is true with health care. Free prescriptions are a great ideal, but not at the expense of frontline services, which again are currently stretched to breaking point.

These policies have been good whilst they've lasted, but they are not sustainable in the long term and I 100% guarantee that.

Of course they are sustainable.

Simply ditch trident and stop going to war.

Those two would be a great place to start.

I take your point about tertiary education.

Both unis and colleges are struggling.

Merging some colleges is an obviously good idea but it's a shame.

You mention people in work looking for evening classes and whilst I agree about that problem, those people are not the priority.

The first priority for education is to maintain equal opportunity for those who don't bugger things up at school.

The second priority is to provide a second chance for those who did bugger up first time round.

The third is then those who have already made their way in the world.

All of those are important but that priority list is hard to disagree with I think.

BTW as for unis, I'd like to see the the bulk of research funding (75%) going towards research with clear aims to produce spin outs and commercial opportunity. The remainder can be split amongst those trying things out just for interest. At the moment it's the other way round with funding.

As an independent nation we'll need all of our resources aimed at job creation and opportunity uncovering.

Edited January 4, 2014 by oaksoft

[smcc]

In which case I find it genuinely astonishing that you wouldn't agree about how horrendously stretched the frontline currently is compared to 10 or 20 years ago... To deny that is like trying to say the sky is green or the sea is red...

The management crock is often one that is wheeled out. Personally I think it's complete nonsense as any organisation as massive as the NHS NEEDS a huge amount of management, there cannot be any debate over that I'm afraid. Where the debate is relevant is over the types of management required.

My mother wasn't in the 'management' side of things per se, she was at operational director level and set up a number of life saving and changing successful initiatives in the areas of cancer screening, smoking cessation and heart care across multiple areas of Scotland, for which she was awarded an MBE a decade ago.

Perhaps you should have read my post before replying. I did not suggest that management is unnecessary but that many of the managers are not really managers.

[Stuart Dickson]

 

Yes because as a country (Scotland) we have elected successive socialist governments to spend the pocket money we have been given by the English parliament on things which benefit society as a whole rather than lining the pockets of already rich people.

Therefore we have free prescriptions to allow poor people to get the same medical treatments as rich people; free personal care for the same reason; free education to attempt to equalise opportunity regardless of wealth or class and a vast range of other benefits which England doesn't enjoy because THEY choose to piss their money away on other things like.......well you tell me? What exactly do the English gain from not having free prescriptions, free tuition and free personal care? Cheaper taxes? Nope. Lower National Insurance? Nope. Cheaper council tax? LOL I think not. What exactly is being done with the savings made?

 

Sorry bud. If you want a government which isn't socialist you'll wait a long time in Scotland.

Oh FFS. The poor in the UK have had free prescriptions for as long as I've lived - what the SNP did was the introduced free prescriptions for those who Could afford to pay. This has led to the return of the situation where you have to wait days to see a Gp cause loads of daft f**ks want their paracetamol free rather than pay the 20p to buy them over the counter at Tesco

[oaksoft]

what the SNP did was the introduced free prescriptions for those who Could afford to pay.

That's simply not true and frankly once again you are spouting shite about something you know nothing about.

We're not talking about paracetamol. We're talking about a range of pills - some of which were costing people extortionate amounts of money.

The main sufferers were those with difficult to control problems which required a combination of many drugs at the same time.

As for abuse? You'll be able to prove that right? You'll be able to show evidence of this plague of people using prescriptions for paracetamol which can be bought for 16p at Asda?

[FTOF]

Oh FFS. The poor in the UK have had free prescriptions for as long as I've lived - what the SNP did was the introduced free prescriptions for those who Could afford to pay. This has led to the return of the situation where you have to wait days to see a Gp cause loads of daft f**ks want their paracetamol free rather than pay the 20p to buy them over the counter at Tesco

Did you miss the stat that 90% of England's prescription items are dispensed for free?

It would seem that plenty of people in England, who can afford to pay for their prescriptions, have "free" prescriptions.

There's some non-wiki evidence below, but you won't be familiar with that concept.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21629363

Edited January 4, 2014 by FTOF

[oaksoft]

Did you miss the stat that 90% of England's prescription items are dispensed for free?

It would seem that plenty of people in England, who can afford to pay for their prescriptions, have "free" prescriptions.

There's some non-wiki evidence below, but you won't be familiar with that concept.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21629363

Interesting to see that in England they've capped fees for those who know they will need repeat and regular prescriptions.

Those who don't know this in advance will still be screwed but at least it's a start.

So it seems like you've answered one of my questions - what does England do with the savings from not handing out free prescriptions to 100% of the population?

They do nothing because they are handing out 90% for free. The savings from making the other 10% pay are probably used up administering the voucher scheme and having expensive systems and checks in place to prevent abuse.

What an absolute crock of a system.

You have to laugh at the Tories. They are so paranoid about being seen to help the weak that they'll go down the more expensive route of means testing before ditching their principles. It's such a weak position to take that it's amazing more English voters don't see straight through it.

Universal benefits are usually always cheaper to administer than means tested benefits.

Edited January 4, 2014 by oaksoft

[FTOF]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-in-bed-ex-msp-2986302

Alistair Darling's latest f**kwittery.

[Stuart Dickson]

 

That's simply not true and frankly once again you are spouting shite about something you know nothing about.

We're not talking about paracetamol. We're talking about a range of pills - some of which were costing people extortionate amounts of money.

The main sufferers were those with difficult to control problems which required a combination of many drugs at the same time.

 

As for abuse? You'll be able to prove that right? You'll be able to show evidence of this plague of people using prescriptions for paracetamol which can be bought for 16p at Asda?

It's not shite at all. Those on any kind of benefits always got free prescriptions. What the SNP did was to give people like me, Stewart Gilmour, Tom Farmer and JK Rowling free prescriptions - people who can well afford their own. As for "abuse" who claimed that? It's a fact that GPs are now filling out prescriptions for cheap over the counter products when in the past they would tell you to go buy your own

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh FFS. The poor in the UK have had free prescriptions for as long as I've lived - what the SNP did was the introduced free prescriptions for those who Could afford to pay. This has led to the return of the situation where you have to wait days to see a Gp cause loads of daft f**ks want their paracetamol free rather than pay the 20p to buy them over the counter at Tesco

Really?

You reckon people are waiting days to see a GP to save themselves 20p

I know your a "daft f**k", but don't go tarring everyone else with the same brush...

[Stuart Dickson]

Really?

You reckon people are waiting days to see a GP to save themselves 20p

I know your a "daft f**k", but don't go tarring everyone else with the same brush...

Yep - and I base it on several pieces of evidence.

1. My GP used to do same day appointments prior to the SNP taking power. These days appointments have to be made at least four days in advance. You can see a GP on the same day if you are prepared to sit in the waiting room for several hours in the hope that someone doesn't turn up or the GP can squeeze in an extra appointment. By the way my GP practice has doubled the number of GP's in the last 10 years.

2. Every year there is an expensive Scotland wide ad campaign trying to stop people going to their GP for cold remedies.

3. I work servicing the retail sector and a number of supermarket managers I've spoken to in Scotland have reported a large dip in sales of over the counter drugs since the SNP introduced free prescriptions something also borne out by the number of supermarkets that are now installing pharmacy counters.

4. Anecdotally I know several people in my work and friend circle who now refuse to buy over the counter medicines because they are "entitled" to them free of charge of the NHS - not one of them are in an income bracket that would have received free prescriptions prior to the stupid policy introduction by the SNP.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[thepaisleypanda]

So - as this is "the referendum thread" what are you suggesting dick o?

[FTOF]

 

Yep - and I base it on several pieces of evidence. 

 

1. My GP used to do same day appointments prior to the SNP taking power. These days appointments have to be made at least four days in advance. You can see a GP on the same day if you are prepared to sit in the waiting room for several hours in the hope that someone doesn't turn up or the GP can squeeze in an extra appointment. By the way my GP practice has doubled the number of GP's in the last 10 years. 

2. Every year there is an expensive Scotland wide ad campaign trying to stop people going to their GP for cold remedies. 

3. I work servicing the retail sector and a number of supermarket managers I've spoken to in Scotland have reported a large dip in sales of over the counter drugs since the SNP introduced free prescriptions something also borne out by the number of supermarkets that are now installing pharmacy counters. 

4. Anecdotally I know several people in my work and friend circle who now refuse to buy over the counter medicines because they are "entitled" to them free of charge of the NHS - not one of them are in an income bracket that would have received free prescriptions prior to the stupid policy introduction by the SNP. 

You could have just posted that your work mates and friends are a shower of sponging bastards and saved yourself some effort by not posting the rest of the shite.

[oaksoft]

Yep - and I base it on several pieces of evidence.

1. My GP used to do same day appointments prior to the SNP taking power. These days appointments have to be made at least four days in advance. You can see a GP on the same day if you are prepared to sit in the waiting room for several hours in the hope that someone doesn't turn up or the GP can squeeze in an extra appointment. By the way my GP practice has doubled the number of GP's in the last 10 years.

2. Every year there is an expensive Scotland wide ad campaign trying to stop people going to their GP for cold remedies.

3. I work servicing the retail sector and a number of supermarket managers I've spoken to in Scotland have reported a large dip in sales of over the counter drugs since the SNP introduced free prescriptions something also borne out by the number of supermarkets that are now installing pharmacy counters.

4. Anecdotally I know several people in my work and friend circle who now refuse to buy over the counter medicines because they are "entitled" to them free of charge of the NHS - not one of them are in an income bracket that would have received free prescriptions prior to the stupid policy introduction by the SNP.

Not sure how 1 is evidence of anything.

Same about 2.

3 is proof of nothing either.

WTF is going on with your 4th point. Since when did anyone on here believe anything you said?

I do love the idea of well-off friends of yours taking a paid holiday from work to save themselves 20p .

Good luck finding someone stupid enough to believe you.

So you've wasted a post there proving absolutely nothing.

Can someone please explain the concept of proof to Dicky?

Edited January 4, 2014 by oaksoft

[Tam M]

I'll be voting yes. I want decisions made by the people put in power by the people of Scotland.

[Stuart Dickson]

Not sure how 1 is evidence of anything.

Same about 2.

3 is proof of nothing either.

WTF is going on with your 4th point. Since when did anyone on here believe anything you said?

I do love the idea of well-off friends of yours taking a paid holiday from work to save themselves 20p .

Good luck finding someone stupid enough to believe you.

So you've wasted a post there proving absolutely nothing.

Can someone please explain the concept of proof to Dicky?

Are you sure you are scientist? I just can't get my head around how you would manage to be in that profession when you clearly don't understand the difference between proof and evidence. I never claimed it was proof, I offered four pieces of evidence to back up my claim. I even signposted it by posting that it was evidence. I suppose your lack of comprehension skills explain a lot though when it comes to the pish you come away with when you post about those silly little windmills.

Anyway one thing is fact - the poor in the whole of the UK were getting free prescriptions long before the SNP ever took office - and the only thing the SNP did with their free prescription policy is that they ensured that the wealthy, the prosperous and the middle classes could enjoy the same taxpayer subsidised drugs free at the point of delivery.

[Stuart Dickson]

I'll be voting yes. I want decisions made by the people put in power by the people of Scotland.

You mean like Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, Douglas Alexander, Dr Jim Reid, Danny Alexander, David Mundell or any number of countless others who have held cabinet positions in every UK government in my lifetime.

[FTOF]

Anyway one thing is fact - the poor in the whole of the UK were getting free prescriptions long before the SNP ever took office - and the only thing the SNP did with their free prescription policy is that they ensured that the wealthy, the prosperous and the middle classes could enjoy the same taxpayer subsidised drugs free at the point of delivery.

Just like in England then.

[Stuart Dickson]

Just like in England then.

Ach you shouldn't believe the shite posted on this forum as fact.

The rules on prescription charges in England are pretty much the same as they always were.

Who is entitled to get free prescriptions in England?

• If you are aged 60 or over.
• If you are aged under 16.
• If you are aged 16, 17 or 18 and in full-time education.
• If you are pregnant, or have had a baby in the previous 12 months, and have an exemption certificate (see below).
• If you have a listed medical condition and have an exemption certificate (see below).
• If you are an NHS inpatient.
• If you (or your partner) get one of the following:
  • Universal Credit
  • Income Support.
  • Income-based Jobseeker's Allowance.
  • Income-related Employment and Support Allowance.
  • Pension Credit Guarantee Credit.
• If you are entitled to, or named on, a valid NHS tax credit exemption certificate.
• Some war pensioners - if treatment is connected with the pensionable disability.
• People on a low income who have a certificate HC2 (see below).

If you are entitled to free prescriptions, complete the declaration on the back of the prescription and sign it. You may be asked for proof that you are exempt.

Not much scope in there for me or JK Rowling to get our cough medicine on the taxpayers bill down there. Gilmour and Farmer might though - I think they are both pensionable - aren't they?

Edited January 5, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Bud Bundy]

Ach you shouldn't believe the shite posted on this forum as fact.

The rules on prescription charges in England are pretty much the same as they always were.

Not much scope in there for me or JK Rowling to get our cough medicine on the taxpayers bill down there. Gilmour and Farmer might though - I think they are both pensionable - aren't they?

Have You not heard of The minor Ailments Clinic at Your local Pharmacy Stuart ? No need to go to your GP for a cough bottle or a few paracetamol - Just pop into The local Chemist, Sing up and get your medication - No need to visit your Doctors Surgery for a wee cough, or your persistent wind ?

[oaksoft]

Ach you shouldn't believe the shite posted on this forum as fact.

The rules on prescription charges in England are pretty much the same as they always were.

Not much scope in there for me or JK Rowling to get our cough medicine on the taxpayers bill down there. Gilmour and Farmer might though - I think they are both pensionable - aren't they?

You missed a crucial section of that list.

You know which one - the one which talks about people who need more than 4 prescriptions per 3 month period?

You are no JK Rowling but you do remind me of Jeffrey Archer.

He was a lying manipulator of facts too.

http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/Yourhealth/Pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

Save money on your prescription costs

If you can't get free prescriptions, there is another way to save money.

A Prescription Prepayment Certificate (PPC) is a kind of prescription charge season ticket. It covers you for all of your own NHS prescription charges, no matter how many items you need.

The charge for a single prescription is £7.65, whereas a three-month PPC will cost you £29.10 and a 12-month PPC is £104.00. To help spread the cost of a 12-month certificate you can pay by direct debit with 10 monthly instalments.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcosts/Pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

The above link details the PPC.

At £104 per year it's certainly not free but for most of those having to pay it might as well be.

The same website talks about 90% of all prescriptions being free.

So for the Tories to slaughter anyone over a free prescription policy is laughable.

Edited January 5, 2014 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

You missed a crucial section of that list.

You know which one - the one which talks about people who need more than 4 prescriptions per 3 month period?

You are no JK Rowling but you do remind me of Jeffrey Archer.

He was a lying manipulator of facts too.

http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/Yourhealth/Pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

Save money on your prescription costs

If you can't get free prescriptions, there is another way to save money.

A Prescription Prepayment Certificate (PPC) is a kind of prescription charge season ticket. It covers you for all of your own NHS prescription charges, no matter how many items you need.

The charge for a single prescription is £7.65, whereas a three-month PPC will cost you £29.10 and a 12-month PPC is £104.00. To help spread the cost of a 12-month certificate you can pay by direct debit with 10 monthly instalments.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcosts/Pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

The above link details the PPC.

At £104 per year it's certainly not free but for most of those having to pay it might as well be.

The same website talks about 90% of all prescriptions being free.

So for the Tories to slaughter anyone over a free prescription policy is laughable.

But that was the case in Scotland too before the SNP decided to give JK Rowling free Night Nurse. You could always buy a "season ticket" as it was called back then which would give you discounts against the full prescription cost if you had a need for regular repeat prescriptions. The Tories, and the Labour Party before them have hardly changed anything whatsoever in England in terms of prescriptions since the days of Margaret Thatcher. The names of the benefits have changed but that's about it.

It's a simple plain fact that when the people of Scotland decided to grant the SNP power the first thing they did of any significance was give the middle classes and the well off "free prescriptions" which of course are really funded by the taxpayer - and bizarrely the people of Scotland were so stupid they actually liked the policy. Of course their other main headline grabbing policy was to take money out of the pockets of care assistants, dinner ladies, bin men, and cleaners by imposing council tax freezes on local authorities, whilst fully funding the further education of tomorrow's GP's, Politicians, Solicitors and Bankers. Oh and I should add not just those GP's, Politicians, Solicitors and Bankers that might benefit the Scottish Economy at some point in the future - but anyone from any of the EU countries who cares to apply too. Again bizarrely the stupid Scots appear to have bought into that too so long as we don't have to pay for the education of those nasty English people.

Far from being Socialist the SNP have a record of selling off taxpayer assets to £millionaire businessmen in some cases for as little as £1 and their whole energy policy revolves around paying some of the UK's richest landowners fee's to put little energy inefficient windmills up all over their land. Their leader has even used taxpayers money to fund lavish hotel stays in the US for him and his wife and he's abused his position to take the Scottish Government Cabinet on a tour of Scotlands most expensive golf courses for their cabinet meetings - again all at taxpayer expense. Taxpayers money is even being used to prop up the expensive SNP airport, an airport that very few Scots actually use! Alex Salmond certainly is the Napoleon character from Animal Farm where the pigs are troughing it.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[smcc]

But that was the case in Scotland too before the SNP decided to give JK Rowling free Night Nurse. You could always buy a "season ticket" as it was called back then which would give you discounts against the full prescription cost if you had a need for regular repeat prescriptions. The Tories, and the Labour Party before them have hardly changed anything whatsoever in England in terms of prescriptions since the days of Margaret Thatcher. The names of the benefits have changed but that's about it.

It's a simple plain fact that when the people of Scotland decided to grant the SNP power the first thing they did of any significance was give the middle classes and the well off "free prescriptions" which of course are really funded by the taxpayer - and bizarrely the people of Scotland were so stupid they actually liked the policy. Of course their other main headline grabbing policy was to take money out of the pockets of care assistants, dinner ladies, bin men, and cleaners by imposing council tax freezes on local authorities, whilst fully funding the further education of tomorrow's GP's, Politicians, Solicitors and Bankers. Oh and I should add not just those GP's, Politicians, Solicitors and Bankers that might benefit the Scottish Economy at some point in the future - but anyone from any of the EU countries who cares to apply too. Again bizarrely the stupid Scots appear to have bought into that too so long as we don't have to pay for the education of those nasty English people.

Far from being Socialist the SNP have a record of selling off taxpayer assets to £millionaire businessmen in some cases for as little as £1 and their whole energy policy revolves around paying some of the UK's richest landowners fee's to put little energy inefficient windmills up all over their land. Their leader has even used taxpayers money to fund lavish hotel stays in the US for him and his wife and he's abused his position to take the Scottish Government Cabinet on a tour of Scotlands most expensive golf courses for their cabinet meetings - again all at taxpayer expense. Taxpayers money is even being used to prop up the expensive SNP airport, an airport that very few Scots actually use! Alex Salmond certainly is the Napoleon character from Animal Farm where the pigs are troughing it.

Your night time ranting is going well. In case you had not realised, the SNP has been in government since 2007, albeit only a minority government until 2011. Your claim that the introduction of free prescriptions in Scotland has led to everyone rushing to his GP for free prescriptions is simply not borne out by the facts. The average increase in the number of items dispensed in Scotland in the years 2003/4 to 2011/2 was 2.17%, the highest annual increase being from 2008/9 to 2009/10 when it was 4%. Following the abolition of prescription charges in April 2011 the annual increase was in items dispensed was 3.76% dropping to 2.36% in 2012/3. There has, therefore, been no huge increase in the number of people jumping on the free prescription band wagon, nor has there been a huge rise in the total cost of prescriptions dispensed which, in the year to March 2012 rose by 1.4% and in the year to March 2013 fell by 5%. The rise in total prescription costs in the year prior to the abolition of charges i.e. the year to March 2011 was 1.4%.

Granted that the total cost, including dispensing fees, of items dispensed was £118.16m and that a standard charge of £7 for every prescription item would have brought in £657m, would you have ploughed this money into the NHS or used it to partly fund an insurance-based scheme which would pass a proportion of the money to the insurance companies? This sum, of corse, assumes that everyone, including children, the severely ill, the choronically ill, the mentally ill, the physically and learnig disabled and the elderly would not be exempt from charges. If the previous prescription exemtion charge still existed then the money available would be less than 10% of the figure above i.e. £65m.

I have to laugh at your comparing Alex Salmond with Animal Farm's Napoleon and would point you to the many politicians south of the border who are living high on the hog. There are countless instances of UK politicians using their offices and status to give hand outs to their friends in big business, claiming £300 for apearing for half-an-hour on the premises of the House of Lords, defrauding the taxpayer by falsifying expenses and by sliding smoothly from office into lucrative positions in commercial firms, often those directly connected to their previous appointments.

Better together? Better the devil you know? You have obviously made up your mind but, fortunately, there are still lots of "don't knows", not all of whom share your prejudices.

Edited January 5, 2014 by smcc

[FTOF]

Ach you shouldn't believe the shite posted on this forum as fact.

The figure is not from the forum, it's from the BBC article.

Unless, of course you're suggesting they made up this figure of 90%.

Unlike you we don't all make up "facts" or lie to try and get our points across.

[oaksoft]

The figure is not from the forum, it's from the BBC article.

Unless, of course you're suggesting they made up this figure of 90%.

Unlike you we don't all make up "facts" or lie to try and get our points across.

The figure of 90% is also on the NHS website.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

[quote name="Stuart Dickson" post="1140551" timestamp="1388877554"

You mean like Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, Douglas Alexander, Dr Jim Reid, Danny Alexander, David Mundell or any number of countless others who have held cabinet positions in every UK government in my lifetime.

LOL That reads like an advert for the yes campaign. Could you not pick some better examples? Of course not...

BTW who was Dr Jim Reid?