The Referendum Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

Perhaps more important is the finding that, when asked if 5 years from now most Scots would regret voting "Yes", the Scottish respondents were split 50:50.

Maybe so but then we have to come back again to the fact that the sample size is half of what it should be, and you have to factor in the fact that for someone who is obviously voting No and who believes the country will vote no, the question seems more than just a bit irrelevant.

[Isabella Duke]

To put a different spin on it, (and im not nailing my colours to any mast), but surely on the back of the recession and under a tory goverment that, as usual, are only looking after their own, this is one of the best oportunities of people wanting to split from GB?

Surely we are as disengaged from London and rUK as we are ever likely to be?

Your post is very ironic when you consider that the recession was caused by Scottish banks under a Labour Government full of Scots, including Scottish prime minister.

And that the economy is now recovering under a Tory government!

[Stuart Dickson]

If you think you explained it then you are ... well, I've said it often enough. According to the Poll of Polls, the gap has narrowed - it tells you that on the original site.

You obviously don't know what verbosity means, as it applies more to your posts than it does to mine.

What have the SNP got to do with anything - this isn't about the SNP, only you and a couple of others are trying to make it so.

You are claiming credit by allowing it to state "Written by Stuart Dickson". I'm sure Div could give you a few pointers on how to change things to stop your plagiarism (or is it just blatant theft?). You've been caught lying and generally misrepresenting the truth on here so often, that nothing you claim can be believed and is, in the main, treated as the fanciful ravings of a degenerate madman.

Dear oh dear.....

[Bloomsbury Bud]

Your post is very ironic when you consider that the recession was caused by Scottish banks under a Labour Government full of Scots, including Scottish prime minister.

And that the economy is now recovering under a Tory government!

No, the recession was caused by an international ease of credit, this is why its impact was felt in France, USA, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark.

The idea that a small Scottish conspiracy created the global financial crisis which exposed organisations such as Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is literally incredible.

The current UK government is actually inflating the same market, that previously collapsed, under the help to buy scheme and loose credit.

[Stuart Dickson]

No, the recession was caused by an international ease of credit, this is why its impact was felt in France, USA, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark.

The idea that a small Scottish conspiracy created the global financial crisis which exposed organisations such as Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is literally incredible.

Obviously much of this is true, however at the peak of the banking crisis the UK Treasury had to cover banking liabilities to the tune of an eye watering £1.162 TRILLION. To put this into perspective the total UK National Debt today, excluding the money used for bank bailouts is £1.284 Trillion. The majority of those liabilities were owed by RBS and by HBOS. We know an Independent Scotland could never have covered those liabilities on it's own, and it certainly couldn't have done it if it was tied in to the Euro as Alex Salmond was claiming an Independent Scotland would do at that time.

This of course was the banking crisis that Alex Salmond claimed on National TV wasn't happening even as RBS's share price fell through the floor. Much of RBS's liabilities coming about from it's woefully ill advised purchase of ABN Amro which Alex Salmond went on record to support, even sending Fred Goodwin personal letters offering the full and unreserved backing of the Scottish Government in any way Fred Goodwin deemed practical.

If it hadn't been for the Union Scotland would have been more f**ked than Iceland and Ireland together - countries of course that Alex Salmond likened to Scotland as part of the Celtic Tiger.....

As for your last sentence, isn't it interesting that there are still people in our midst who would seek to prevent certain classes in society ever owning their own homes. The UK Government has worked wonders in stimulating the economy using the important construction sector to create jobs, wealth and growth whilst providing new homes. The Scottish Government has long proposed to do much the same thing only rather than create or improve housing the Scottish Government want to spend way more than we can afford on "infrastructure projects" like the vanity project over in Glasgow for the Commonwealth Games.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Bloomsbury Bud]

As for your last sentence, isn't it interesting that there are still people in our midst who would seek to prevent certain classes in society ever owning their own homes. The UK Government has worked wonders in stimulating the economy using the important construction sector to create jobs, wealth and growth whilst providing new homes. The Scottish Government has long proposed to do much the same thing only rather than create or improve housing the Scottish Government want to spend way more than we can afford on "infrastructure projects" like the vanity project over in Glasgow for the Commonwealth Games.

As you well know, I did not state I want to exclude any or all classes from property. The point of my last sentence was to reflect that while loose credit caused the recession I do not believe it fiscally smart to make loose credit to be the answer to it as well. I'm happy to disagree with you (or anyone else) in honest terms, but not on terms that misrepresent what I said. Thanks.

[Stuart Dickson]

As you well know, I did not state I want to exclude any or all classes from property. The point of my last sentence was to reflect that while loose credit caused the recession I do not believe it fiscally smart to make loose credit to be the answer to it as well. I'm happy to disagree with you (or anyone else) in honest terms, but not on terms that misrepresent what I said. Thanks.

Is it loose credit?

https://www.gov.uk/affordable-home-ownership-schemes/help-to-buy-equity-loans

To me Help To Buy looks more like an owner partnership. The government is essentially buying a 20% stake in your home as the amount you repay depends on the value of the home on the day you make your repayment. If anything it's probably a more resourceful and practical way of underwriting each of the banks loan books than giving the banks cheap access to money through Quantitative Easing.

[Stuart Dickson]

No matter the subject - StuD is an EXPERT on it.

Aw shucks, thanks for that. Personally I wouldn't call myself an expert on anything but I guess the term is relative and compared to you I suppose it's incredibly easy to look like an expert.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[smcc]

I'm not one of those coming out with the 'I'm voting yes for my children and my childrens' children'. I just possibly think longer term than those guys. I want Scotland to be a forward looking, vibrant and wealthy country in a hundred years time and I believe the best way forward is to stay in the Union. The future of a country isn't a short term sprint.

Unfortunately, the ruling classes in the Union are still living in the days of the British Empire when Britain was a world power. I do not believe that this attitude is likely to change.

[Stuart Dickson]

Unfortunately, the ruling classes in the Union are still living in the days of the British Empire when Britain was a world power. I do not believe that this attitude is likely to change.

Nonsense.

[Stuart Dickson]

Iceland???? Celtic Tiger??? Where did Salmond say this? Quote please.

Hmm, yeah got this wrong. It wasn't the Celtic Tiger - it was the Celtic Lion...got my animals wrong it seems. Still no wonder you wanted quotes. It appears Alex Salmond and the Natsi Party have been busy trying to scrub all evidence of this somewhat embarrassing speech.

The highly respected Scottish blogger, Love and Garbage, seems to have got a bit of a scoop.

It would appear that the March 2008 "Celtic Lion" speech by Alex Salmond has been taken down from the Scottish government website. This seems odd, for as Love and Garbage can establish:

In fact, if you go to the

full collection of the First Minister's big set-piece speeches

since taking office you will discover that while the speech is referred to the Harvard speech is the only one that does not have a live link.

So what was in this now elusive "Celtic Lion" speech?

Something rather embarrassing, in hindsight. As Love and Garbage explains:

In March 2008 Alex Salmond addressed an audience at Harvard University. Some of you may remember it. In the speech the First Minister referred to the "arc of prosperity" or Ireland, Iceland, and Norway; he referred to "the remarkable success of indigenous companies that have become global, Nokia in Finland, Ericsson in Sweden, Maersk shipping in Denmark or for that matter the Royal Bank of Scotland." (not the last of his praise for the Royal Bank); he said "the lesson we draw from our neighbours in Ireland - the Celtic Tiger economy - where annual growth has averaged more than 6 per cent over the past two decades, is that with the right strategy, there are no limits to success in the modern global economy."; and a hymn of praise to Scotland's financial sector "of course we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world - a global recognition and affection for our culture that money cannot buy. Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS - two of the world's biggest banks - Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term. And a growing number of American firms - not least JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and State Street - are discovering that the Scottish financial sector can do anything you can do in London and can do it better and rather importantly in the current environment can do it at lower cost."

In an aggressive phone call from the First Minister's press office I was told this post (the one you are reading) was going to be "misleading" and "erroneous". I hadn't even written it at that stage. It would seem "that it was normal for speeches of the old administration to be taken down". Now, how can one sensibly doubt this assurance?

However, it would be a pity for the First Minister's political wisdom to be lost to future generations, so here is the "Scotland will be a Celtic Lion" speech in full.

Addendum (28 June 2011)

A couple of things followed this post.

First, I received this from Donna Rafferty at the First Minister's Press Office:

This is misleading, because all Ministerial speeches recorded in the Speeches and Statements section during the previous administration (2007-2011) remain available. These speeches include the First Minister's speech at Harvard and can be found at:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/speeches

.

Following normal website housekeeping, a new Speeches and Statements section has been created for the present administration with its new team of Ministers, and is part of the main navigation at

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/news/speeches

.

Then the speech suddenly re-appeared on the Scottish government site. The implicit suggestion seems to be it was there the whole time and that, somehow, both me and Love and Garbage missed it.

However, the leading blogger Unity, of Ministry of Truth, has established it was published on the site after the post of Love and Garbage and my enquiries.

What a very strange sequence of events.

David Allen Green was shortlisted for the 2010 George Orwell prize for blogging.

Tags:Celtic Lion speechAlex SalmondScotland

[Isabella Duke]

No, the recession was caused by an international ease of credit, this is why its impact was felt in France, USA, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark.

The idea that a small Scottish conspiracy created the global financial crisis which exposed organisations such as Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is literally incredible.

Deary me. Where did I mention the word "conspiracy"?

The Nats like to moan about Westminster rule and how Scots would be better of running our own enconomy but the fact is that it was Scots who were at the heart of running the economy when the last recession hit. And Labour were in charge, not the Tories.

And the idea that massive financial institutions such as RBS ans HBOS played no part in the financial crisis is literally incredible.

[Isabella Duke]

As you well know, I did not state I want to exclude any or all classes from property. The point of my last sentence was to reflect that while loose credit caused the recession I do not believe it fiscally smart to make loose credit to be the answer to it as well. I'm happy to disagree with you (or anyone else) in honest terms, but not on terms that misrepresent what I said. Thanks.

Deary me.

Its okay for you to misrepresent what others post and you have a problem when it happens to you?

[Isabella Duke]

Slartibartfast - you make a number of good points. Its good reading and I enjoy reading your debate with Stuart.

Why do you feel the need to also add a load of personal abuse in your posts though?

[Isabella Duke]

Stuart - the phrase "Celtic Tiger" is metioned early in that Salmond speech. You didn't get your animals mixed up at all.

[oaksoft]

Obviously much of this is true, however at the peak of the banking crisis the UK Treasury had to cover banking liabilities to the tune of an eye watering £1.162 TRILLION. To put this into perspective the total UK National Debt today, excluding the money used for bank bailouts is £1.284 Trillion. The majority of those liabilities were owed by RBS and by HBOS. We know an Independent Scotland could never have covered those liabilities on it's own, and it certainly couldn't have done it if it was tied in to the Euro as Alex Salmond was claiming an Independent Scotland would do at that time.

This of course was the banking crisis that Alex Salmond claimed on National TV wasn't happening even as RBS's share price fell through the floor. Much of RBS's liabilities coming about from it's woefully ill advised purchase of ABN Amro which Alex Salmond went on record to support, even sending Fred Goodwin personal letters offering the full and unreserved backing of the Scottish Government in any way Fred Goodwin deemed practical.

If it hadn't been for the Union Scotland would have been more f**ked than Iceland and Ireland together - countries of course that Alex Salmond likened to Scotland as part of the Celtic Tiger.....

As for your last sentence, isn't it interesting that there are still people in our midst who would seek to prevent certain classes in society ever owning their own homes. The UK Government has worked wonders in stimulating the economy using the important construction sector to create jobs, wealth and growth whilst providing new homes. The Scottish Government has long proposed to do much the same thing only rather than create or improve housing the Scottish Government want to spend way more than we can afford on "infrastructure projects" like the vanity project over in Glasgow for the Commonwealth Games.

Those banks should have been allowed to go bust as per normal market rules.

Compensation paid to account holders.

And we wouldn't have saddled the next 8 generations of children with debts they'll struggle to repay before 2100.

Edited June 10, 2014 by oaksoft

[thepaisleypanda]

The Nats like to moan about Westminster rule and how Scots would be better of running our own enconomy but the fact is that it was Scots who were at the heart of running the economy when the last recession hit. And Labour were in charge, not the Tories.

Ah you mean Mr Darling & Mr Brown? What do they wan't us to vote for in September?

[thepaisleypanda]

And the idea that massive financial institutions such as RBS ans HBOS played no part in the financial crisis is literally incredible.

Don't really get your point there!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

http://www.populus.co.uk/Poll/Scottish-Referendum/

Oh dear. It looks like the SNP take on the Populus Poll was typical Natsi spin.

1. As the poll is a UK wide poll. It doesn't ask voting intentions.

2. Although it does break results down into regions the sample size of Scottish voters is only 520 odd around half of the normal sample size.

3. The relevant poll shows Scottish support for Independence at 40% with 13% undecided.

Silly Natsis

There was no spin.

Isle of Bute Saint stated factual information. You accused him of not talking nonsense when what he said was factually correct. I then confirmed this without actually giving opinion on the poll. You should maybe try factual information as opposed to opinion once in a while.

You f**ked up and still cant acknowledge this.

The only one being silly, as usual, is you - ya trumpet.

[Saint4life]

The biggest bailout in the British banking crisis was given to Barclays (an English bank) Significant amounts were given to RBS and HBOS from Westminster (66 billion) but with Scotland's GDP at 165 billion it is without doubt we could have afforded this without any more strain than that which was felt uk wide. The uk relied on much of their bailout money from international governments (most significantly the USA) and these countries helped bailout the uk banks because they have business associated with them, whether scotland is part of the uk or not, countries and companies with significant business interest in a particular bank will help bail them out, as shown by the bailout of several Belgian banks by the French and German governments

People refer to crashes in Iceland and Ireland, but it is it not worth noting that because of their small size and their self-determination of their own countries policies, they have recovered much quicker than the uk both and are both significantly better off.

[smcc]

For those who keep insisting that Scotland is a basket case, it is worth reading this paragraph from Harry Reid's piece in today's Herald.

"Also, it does seem a bit cheeky of the No campaign to insist we'd be considerably better off if we remain in the Union.

The reality is that Unionist politicians have presided over financial crisis after financial crisis. The UK has a gargantuan national debt that should put fear into each of its citizens each and every day. You could say this appalling incubus is the real residue of 307 years of Union.

The second point is that UK governments have denied Scotland the proper fruits of our oil. It's often said, but it bears repetition: Scotland discovered oil and promptly became poorer. How scandalous that is. Our assets may not have been actually stolen, but they have certainly been squandered."

[Stuart Dickson]

So, where in all of that does anyone refer to Iceland as a Celtic anything? More lies. Admit you were talking shite and we can just move on to your next lie.

I was referring to the speech - his Celtic Lion one - as linked to from the article above where Salmond made many embarrassing references that the SNP have since tried to bury. I may have got the reference wrong - I've said that I did already - but the point remains the same. Read the blog, read the speech, Salmond is an absolute fool of a man who's made far more mistakes than I have.

[salmonbuddie]

I wouldn't put the mortgage on that one, StuD.........

[Stuart Dickson]

The biggest bailout in the British banking crisis was given to Barclays (an English bank) Significant amounts were given to RBS and HBOS from Westminster (66 billion) but with Scotland's GDP at 165 billion it is without doubt we could have afforded this without any more strain than that which was felt uk wide. The uk relied on much of their bailout money from international governments (most significantly the USA) and these countries helped bailout the uk banks because they have business associated with them, whether scotland is part of the uk or not, countries and companies with significant business interest in a particular bank will help bail them out, as shown by the bailout of several Belgian banks by the French and German governments

People refer to crashes in Iceland and Ireland, but it is it not worth noting that because of their small size and their self-determination of their own countries policies, they have recovered much quicker than the uk both and are both significantly better off.

Iceland recovering much quicker? Really? Gross and net debt ratios have increased from 29% and 7% in 2007 to 93% and 66% in 2013. There's also a real fear that private sector companies in Iceland will never be able to repay foreign currency debt. The Icelandic Government's budget is also still in deficit at 2.7% so debt levels are still rising despite huge austerity cuts on an unprecedented scale. I should also mention that Iceland now has a credit rating of BBB- which means far higher interest rates on it's national debt than the UK currently pays.

As for Ireland talk to anyone who still works there and most are looking to get out of the country. Irish household debt currently stands at 155% of GNP and the Irish Government has to set aside 10.8% of all revenue just to service the interest on the national debt.

If you still fancy the idea of Scotland having followed them you are more bonkers than you initially appear. Do they allow you near sharp implements?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[FTOF]

Don't panic!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27779131