The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I have already mentioned one company that has packed up and left. Petroleum Geo-Services - who have announced that despite profits of over $150m last year that they are leaving Scotland and taking key staff to Oslo and paying off the rest. Standard Life and TSB have also made it clear that they are making plans to relocate out of Scotland. Aggreko has also announced that they will quit Scotland if it becomes independent citing currency costs as a reason. Their boss Rupert Soames also accused Alex Salmond of phoning him the day after the story broke to issue him with threats about public contracts an allegation that was repeated by the CBI who claimed they've had a number of members who feel as though Alex Salmond has tried to intimidate them.

BP's CEO has raised concerns over currency issues, Sainsburys, Asda and Morrisons have all said they would face increased costs to supply an independent Scotland. That's just some of the many you'll find happily quoted in many articles available on the internet.

TSB & Standard Life have not said they are quitting Scotland. YOU'RE TELLING LIES AGAIN!

TSB have actually had to issue a press release explaining that they are setting up a holding company in London, replacing one that they already have in England ahead of their sell off from Lloyds. Standard life was dealt with yesterday, Rupert Soames has just announced he's quitting aggreko, the supermarkets didn't actually say what you claim. The norwegian company, by your own admission, haven't disclosed why they are relocating business back to their homeland.

Stop the better together scaremongering.

[bluto]

No they didn't. You'll not find a direct quote from them which says that.

Good luck finding it.

The first line in the FT article says exactly that.

And then goes on to say S and P is concerned that Scotland would be overly reliant on its financial sector, as much of the industry might migrate south after independence.

I imagine that the FT is doing the bidding of the Westminster cabal, though.

Sigh.

I subscribe to the FT so I can read the piece and not rely upon a link that won't work for most people.

I also hate having to back Dixon against people who lie.

[Stuart Dickson]

My favourite bit of all of this is the irony that Oaksoft is delighted that Willie Walsh at BA has stated that independence might work well for his company because the Scottish Government is going to scrap Air Passenger Duty.

There's Oaksoft week after week defending the Scottish Government record of supporting expensive and inefficient wind energy projects because we need to change the way we all behave in order to fight climate change - and when the CEO of an airline company states that Scottish Independence might suit him because it will get rid of one of the Green Taxes that's been imposed on us all by Westminster Oaksoft celebrates.

[groucho]

Again Triple A

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/independent-scotland-could-be-aaa-rated-standard-poors/

[Stuart Dickson]

Oh dear, poor Groucho.

As was pointed out just a few posts ago the FT article covering the statement from Standard and Poors gave a much more detailed account of yesterdays announcement and it appears that Scotland would only get a AAA rating IF THEY GET A CURRENCY UNION. When you think about it that stands to reason. If you can get a country with a AAA rating - the UK - to underwrite all your national debt then there is no reason why you couldn't get a AAA rating.

Now the holocaust deniers on the Natsi side can ignore the issue all they want, but the Bank of England, the Treasury, and all of the major political leaders in Westminster have ruled out currency union and to my mind that leaves your case in tatters. Now the sooner we get to the Scottish equivalent of the Nuremburg trials the better because the longer this bloody referendum shit rumbles on the more job losses there are likely to be.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh dear, poor Groucho.

As was pointed out just a few posts ago the FT article covering the statement from Standard and Poors gave a much more detailed account of yesterdays announcement and it appears that Scotland would only get a AAA rating IF THEY GET A CURRENCY UNION. When you think about it that stands to reason. If you can get a country with a AAA rating - the UK - to underwrite all your national debt then there is no reason why you couldn't get a AAA rating.

Now the holocaust deniers on the Natsi side can ignore the issue all they want, but the Bank of England, the Treasury, and all of the major political leaders in Westminster have ruled out currency union and to my mind that leaves your case in tatters. Now the sooner we get to the Scottish equivalent of the Nuremburg trials the better because the longer this bloody referendum shit rumbles on the more job losses there are likely to be.

Are you pished or just a complete c**t?

[Charlotte Saint]

Oh dear, poor Groucho.

As was pointed out just a few posts ago the FT article covering the statement from Standard and Poors gave a much more detailed account of yesterdays announcement and it appears that Scotland would only get a AAA rating IF THEY GET A CURRENCY UNION. When you think about it that stands to reason. If you can get a country with a AAA rating - the UK - to underwrite all your national debt then there is no reason why you couldn't get a AAA rating.

Now the holocaust deniers on the Natsi side can ignore the issue all they want, but the Bank of England, the Treasury, and all of the major political leaders in Westminster have ruled out currency union and to my mind that leaves your case in tatters. Now the sooner we get to the Scottish equivalent of the Nuremburg trials the better because the longer this bloody referendum shit rumbles on the more job losses there are likely to be.

I do wish you would stop this totally offensive rhetoric. By constantly comparing the pro-independence people to one of the most evil regimes in history you really do nobody any favours, least of all yourself.

[groucho]

Please stop quoting that disgusting human being Dickson , but I do feel I now have to reply to his patronising nonsense .

This is an extract from the business for Scotland website

Far from worrying about the volatility of oil prices, credit ratings agencies seem to be more concerned about the highly volatile financial sector that dominates the UK’s economy, and of course contributed to the recession and credit crisis. Business for Scotland has long argued that this is where the real threat to Scotland’s economy lies.

The report gives Scotland a positive rating even under the scenario that:

Scotland would not have a currency union and would have its own currency (which BFS does not believe will happen)

Scotland would inherit a population share of UK debt (which BFS expects to happen because Scotland will gain a fair share of assets including currency)

A major financial institution or two were to leave (which they won’t in our view)

[Bud Bundy]

well i'm neither of those bud unless unionist means i dont want to be governed by church of scotland influence - which would have us paying through the nose for drink and having to listen to them blabbing on about some guy who lives in the sky and watches over us (including those who have beenmurdered/abused/robbed etc),and as for masons - most of them i have met or worked for/with are unintelligent puppets for their "masters" and are only interested in preserving their wee group,much like all political iesparties,so if you do not agree with masonic principals then you best not vote yes because masonic groups will be trying to gain influence in any new government. but me, i just do not want to leave things to chance and i want to keep my job

Well said Bc ! A test to provoke a human response ? You know me, And my Beliefs good Buddie and I respect your opinion, It is Cnut's from London, Bangor, And Wishaw Who rip my knitting ? catcha for a Beer in that rancid little hovel that you frequent after a victory on Saturday

[Stuart Dickson]

Please stop quoting that disgusting human being Dickson , but I do feel I now have to reply to his patronising nonsense .

This is an extract from the business for Scotland website

Far from worrying about the volatility of oil prices, credit ratings agencies seem to be more concerned about the highly volatile financial sector that dominates the UK’s economy, and of course contributed to the recession and credit crisis. Business for Scotland has long argued that this is where the real threat to Scotland’s economy lies.

The report gives Scotland a positive rating even under the scenario that:

Scotland would not have a currency union and would have its own currency (which BFS does not believe will happen)

Scotland would inherit a population share of UK debt (which BFS expects to happen because Scotland will gain a fair share of assets including currency)

A major financial institution or two were to leave (which they won’t in our view)

Oh FFS - you really should stop reading pro independence websites. It's absolutely clear that you do not get objective reporting on any of those sites.

Every single news report on the normal news networks like Reuters, Press Association etc all quote the statement as being concluded with the statement that Scotland would face SIGNIFICANT challenges but that they would not be insurmountable. However that statement is dropped on all of the pro nationalist website reports that are being linked to. Your link - and what you are basing your conclusions on as fact - relates to a nationalist spin on what Standard & Poors meant and how things would work in their opinion.

Honestly we thought that Peter Mandelson and Alastair Campbell were famed for spinning stories for Tony Blair - but this yes campaign and in particular the SNP arm of the SNP campaign goes way beyond what is ethical. Indeed I think Joseph Goebbels may have struggled to get a job for this mob....

[Stuart Dickson]

I see the latest opinion polls show that the Yes vote has regained 5 of the 7 points it had supposedly dropped at the last opinion poll. Support for the Union is now at 49% with the pro independence side now sitting at 37%. This shows IMO that the last poll result was a bit of a freak one and that support for Independence continues to flat line around the 35% mark - where it has always been.

The evidence to this is shown very clearly now on social media and on this forum where supporters of either side are becoming even more entrenched while the level of debate deteriorates further - particularly from the pro independence side.

[bluto]

Please stop quoting that disgusting human being Dickson , but I do feel I now have to reply to his patronising nonsense .This is an extract from the business for Scotland websiteFar from worrying about the volatility of oil prices, credit ratings agencies seem to be more concerned about the highly volatile financial sector that dominates the UK’s economy, and of course contributed to the recession and credit crisis. Business for Scotland has long argued that this is where the real threat to Scotland’s economy lies.The report gives Scotland a positive rating even under the scenario that:Scotland would not have a currency union and would have its own currency (which BFS does not believe will happen)Scotland would inherit a population share of UK debt (which BFS expects to happen because Scotland will gain a fair share of assets including currency)A major financial institution or two were to leave (which they won’t in our view)

Sorry, Groucho.

It IS a PRO-yes site and so you would suppose it might present the best picture possible... even if being creative with the words.

Yes the report would give it a 'positive' rating (but NOT a AAA rating) if not in a currency union. ie being dependent on the rUK rating. And even then, there are further equivocations and qualifications...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I won't persuade you... I won't try and wouldn't want to.

Personally... I'm floating but despite having a lot of understanding of the reasons behind the YES campaign... am veering more towards no.

My reason may well be helluva simplistic... but here it is...

I look at Google Earth... I see a big spherical planet... I look helluva close and I see a tiny wee island we call Britain.

Borders are man-made. It is one wee Island (go on... mention N.I.)

I would only mention Norn Irn as distancing ourselves from it would be another positive case for independence

If I become richer as a result of independence, I assume it will mean that someone in Hull will become poorer as a result... I really don't want that.

Not necessarily, our money currently heads to westminster and not much of it tends to leave the city state of London for the english provinces

I agree the power balance weighted towards London is wrong... but we are no different in our complaints from the Geordies... from the good folks of Leeds or even Manchester.

I agree with this to a degree, however we have a chance to change it for the better which wont happen if we stay within uk

Also... we resent being ruled by Westminster... but want to become a new member state in Europe... will Frau Merkle et al not exert more power over us that Ms Cameron ever could? That worries me!

Gain our independence and self determination first, this allows us to make decisions whether in or out of EU that are best for our wee nation. Despite the so called clout that uk has in europe our farmers and fisherman have been shafted.

so why not make it part of our independence plan to have true independence? Surely that would be more appealing then? THEN decide if we want to be controlled from outwith our borders... as we are now.

Are we not in danger of voting for a different version of the same... but a potentially more dangerous unknown one with even more power over us?

I view it as incremental steps BinEK. For example currency or monarchy plans might not be 100% what I wish but its about making that start down the road of self determination.

[Stuart Dickson]

Easrlier Brian talked about why he was leaning towards a No vote. He spoke about feeling for people in Hull etc. which is fair enough.

I thought I'd post this as one reason me me deciding to vote Yes.

I want to protect Scots from this type of abuse which borders on criminal negligence:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26377119

It's not so much the fact that she's in a coma. It's how she ended up in that state.

This is beyond horrific. Normal human beings simply should not be engaging in this.

The root cause of this is a Tory obsession, based in ego, with ensuring not a single penny in benefits goes to the wrong person. They hire a contractor to do the assessments and then pay them bonuses for every person they get off benefits. What results is highly incentivised staff who harass sick people who SHOULD be on benefits for bonus money. The hardcore offenders who are benefits cheats are more expensive to chase and so are left alone. How could this rather obvious state of affairs be made simple enough that a Tory toff can understand it?

Oaksoft - that's you showing your xenophobia again. I don't know why you do it but your irrational hatred and prejudice against "Tories" and "toffs" does you no credit at all.

I also don't understand your rational at all. Do you not think an Independent Government trying to balance tax returns with welfare payouts is going to have to police the system? Is the Scottish taxpayer likely to tolerate a system where some people are happy to work the benefits system, rather than go out and work? Michael Portillo last night said on This Week to Pat Kane - who was there to make a case for Independence - that Scotland was "the most Socialist State, most welfareist state in the whole of the EU". He had already clarified his point by saying that successive governments in Scotland had ensured that huge percentages of the population relied on the state for work, for benefits and for housing. Do you think that Scots workers would be happy to continue to supply that for the work shy?

This week I was told a story about someone I know. She's got three kids, all who are grown up and all who are unemployed. She works as a part time cleaner whilst claiming a raft of benefits. Now this week it transpires she's had her benefits cut. Why? Because all four of them were claiming housing benefit for the same address.

The BBC story about the benefit claimant who is bipolar and now in a coma is tragic. Clearly it's not the kind of experience anyone wants to hear happening. Obviously I don't know anything beyond the BBC report on this persons condition but in general there is nothing to say that someone who is bipolar cannot work. I know I've worked with at least three people in the past who were bipolar and who had to take their medication every day to control their condition. One of them I've talked about on here before. He was a Pipefitter who had been previously sectioned under the mental health act after he tried to murder someone because they called him a wanker. Now for all he was sometimes a bit unstable he was certainly a very capable Pipefitter and so far as I am aware he's continued to work to this day. Without knowing all the facts though I would say that this case doesn't look to me to be symptomatic of a "Tory toff" government. Rather it's symptomatic of a society where there are clearly people who abuse the welfare system and where the taxpayer calls for government action to police the issue. You could no more protect Scots from the same thing happening here post independence as you could turn back the tides and prevent floods from happening.

[groucho]

Sorry, Groucho.

It IS a PRO-yes site and so you would suppose it might present the best picture possible... even if being creative with the words.

Yes the report would give it a 'positive' rating (but NOT a AAA rating) if not in a currency union. ie being dependent on the rUK rating. And even then, there are further equivocations and qualifications...

No need to apologise ,if you want to believe a pro unionist paper's spin on the report

that's up to you .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oaksoft - that's you showing your xenophobia again. I don't know why you do it but your irrational hatred and prejudice against "Tories" and "toffs" does you no credit at all.

I also don't understand your rational at all. Do you not think an Independent Government trying to balance tax returns with welfare payouts is going to have to police the system? Is the Scottish taxpayer likely to tolerate a system where some people are happy to work the benefits system, rather than go out and work? Michael Portillo last night said on This Week to Pat Kane - who was there to make a case for Independence - that Scotland was "the most Socialist State, most welfareist state in the whole of the EU". He had already clarified his point by saying that successive governments in Scotland had ensured that huge percentages of the population relied on the state for work, for benefits and for housing. Do you think that Scots workers would be happy to continue to supply that for the work shy?

This week I was told a story about someone I know. She's got three kids, all who are grown up and all who are unemployed. She works as a part time cleaner whilst claiming a raft of benefits. Now this week it transpires she's had her benefits cut. Why? Because all four of them were claiming housing benefit for the same address.

The BBC story about the benefit claimant who is bipolar and now in a coma is tragic. Clearly it's not the kind of experience anyone wants to hear happening. Obviously I don't know anything beyond the BBC report on this persons condition but in general there is nothing to say that someone who is bipolar cannot work. I know I've worked with at least three people in the past who were bipolar and who had to take their medication every day to control their condition. One of them I've talked about on here before. He was a Pipefitter who had been previously sectioned under the mental health act after he tried to murder someone because they called him a wanker. Now for all he was sometimes a bit unstable he was certainly a very capable Pipefitter and so far as I am aware he's continued to work to this day. Without knowing all the facts though I would say that this case doesn't look to me to be symptomatic of a "Tory toff" government. Rather it's symptomatic of a society where there are clearly people who abuse the welfare system and where the taxpayer calls for government action to police the issue. You could no more protect Scots from the same thing happening here post independence as you could turn back the tides and prevent floods from happening.

Really? Woman ends up in coma, caused by condition brought on by stress from being harassed about finding work and having benefits cut and you think its the fault of the 0.7% of benefit claims that are fraudulent?

Do all pipefitters take medication?

[Drew]

.... while the level of debate deteriorates further - particularly from the pro independence side.

Indeed, but thankfully, we have your 'Natsi' and Third Reich references to ensure that our discussion cannot degenerate to such levels.

[bluto]

No need to apologise ,if you want to believe a pro unionist paper's spin on the reportthat's up to you .

The FT is not pro-anything other than money.

If you don't even get that, then you really ought to be kept away from any commenting on economics.

But thanks for entering the debate... as competently as you were able.

[Drew]

Really? Woman ends up in coma, caused by condition brought on by stress from being harassed about finding work and having benefits cut and you think its the fault of the 0.7% of benefit claims that are fraudulent?

Do all pipefitters take medication?

The Mental Welfare Commission will shortly be publishing a damning report on a woman who took her own life after being subjected to the 'fit for work' process. It will be very high profile, and rightly so. Let's wait and see what the apologists have to say about this.

It will be indefensible, I can guarantee it.

[Drew]

The FT is not pro-anything other than money.

If you don't even get that, then you really ought to be kept away from any commenting on economics.

But thanks for entering the debate... as competently as you were able.

Are you seriously suggesting that the FT doesn't have a politically driven editorial slant? I mean, really???

[oaksoft]

The first line in the FT article says exactly that.

And then goes on to say S and P is concerned that Scotland would be overly reliant on its financial sector, as much of the industry might migrate south after independence.

I imagine that the FT is doing the bidding of the Westminster cabal, though.

Sigh.

I subscribe to the FT so I can read the piece and not rely upon a link that won't work for most people.

I also hate having to back Dixon against people who lie.

I'm not interested in the article. I'm; interested in what Standard and Poor say and so should any person who wants to hear the truth rather than an interpretation of it.

[bluto]

Are you seriously suggesting that the FT doesn't have a politically driven editorial slant? I mean, really???

Yes.

All it (and its customers) care about is the money. Where does it go and how can it be maximised.

Party politics - which is what this referendum is all about - matters not a jot to the FT. Same with all its reports on overseas -what is the economic reality and opportunity? It has neither need nor desire to play politics as there are sufficient wankers already doing so.

It is all about the money. Reprehensible, no doubt amoral, perhaps not to all our tastes but operating in the only market of interest to it. Politics is relevant only inasmuch as it impacts on p and l.

[oaksoft]

The FT is not pro-anything other than money.

If you don't even get that, then you really ought to be kept away from any commenting on economics.

But thanks for entering the debate... as competently as you were able.

I actually cannot believe that the winner of the under-15 Spelling Bee 1985 is quoting a journalists words and ignoring the entirety of the full quotes from the only people who matter - Standard and Poor.

Standard and Poor pretty much sums up your entire intellect bluto.

[groucho]

The FT is not pro-anything other than money.

If you don't even get that, then you really ought to be kept away from any commenting on economics.

But thanks for entering the debate... as competently as you were able.

No point me answering you ,you are obviously so superior to me ,another patronising prick .I know exactly

what the FT stands for is it social justice ?..... no stupid me it's money .Just like

most of the NO campaign then.

I know where you are coming from now .

" I subscribe to the FT so I can read the piece and not rely upon a link that won't work

for most people"

Sorry but you are a fanny .

[oaksoft]

Indeed, but thankfully, we have your 'Natsi' and Third Reich references to ensure that our discussion cannot degenerate to such levels.

Regrettably (and I genuinely mean this) I've put Dickson on ignore.

I have no problems with other people's opinions and I don't even care about how they put them across - as long as they are man enough to take what they give me. However the latest comments about holocaust denial is the last straw.

I'm not suggesting anyone else put him on ignore but for me this is now a question of integrity.

I HATE blocking out other people's opinions but I think we have a duty to take action against this sort of thing.