The Referendum Thread

[saintnextlifetime]

[Lex]

Yet another kick in the teeth for separatists today, as another poll shows 'better together' gathering momentum and widening the already big gap between the campaigns:

http://news.stv.tv/politics/265962-stv-poll-should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-yes-32-no-57/

' Chancellor George Osborne's intervention on currency appears to have paid off, as a new STV poll shows Scots more likely to vote No after his warning about the pound.

The Conservative politician warned an independent Scotland would not be able to share sterling during a speech in Edinburgh in February.

The UK Government's finance chief said: "If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the pound."

A poll commissioned by STV and conducted by Ipsos Mori suggests the stance, backed up by Labour shadow chancellor Ed Balls and Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander, resonated with voters.

Amongst undecided voters, 34% are now more likely to vote No, 16% more likely to vote Yes and 44% said their position was unchanged. Six per cent did not know.

The headline results place Yes on 32%, No on 57% and undecideds on 11% amongst those certain to vote. When "don't know" voters are stripped out, support for Yes sits at 36% and No at 64%. '

It's turning into a bit of a cakewalk

[groucho]

We asked 138 St Mirren fans and one eh Sunderland fan Yes or No ?

93 Yes

31 No

15 undecided

Yes vote scooshin' it on here .

[Stuart Dickson]

We asked 138 St Mirren fans and one eh Sunderland fan Yes or No ?

93 Yes

31 No

15 undecided

Yes vote scooshin' it on here .

Aye but St Mirren fans have always been a bit thick.

[Stuart Dickson]

Yet another kick in the teeth for separatists today, as another poll shows 'better together' gathering momentum and widening the already big gap between the campaigns:

http://news.stv.tv/politics/265962-stv-poll-should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-yes-32-no-57/

' Chancellor George Osborne's intervention on currency appears to have paid off, as a new STV poll shows Scots more likely to vote No after his warning about the pound.

The Conservative politician warned an independent Scotland would not be able to share sterling during a speech in Edinburgh in February.

The UK Government's finance chief said: "If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the pound."

A poll commissioned by STV and conducted by Ipsos Mori suggests the stance, backed up by Labour shadow chancellor Ed Balls and Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander, resonated with voters.

Amongst undecided voters, 34% are now more likely to vote No, 16% more likely to vote Yes and 44% said their position was unchanged. Six per cent did not know.

The headline results place Yes on 32%, No on 57% and undecideds on 11% amongst those certain to vote. When "don't know" voters are stripped out, support for Yes sits at 36% and No at 64%. '

It's turning into a bit of a cakewalk

Follows on from yet another poll that showed the support for the "Yes" campaign at around a third.

To be honest Lex I think what the polls are showing is that there has never been in increase in their support. It's been completely flat since the whole campaign begun and only one freak poll result has shown the gap narrowing. I think that mirrors what we are seeing on this forum and on social media sites where people have become entrenched. There's very few floating voters left.

[Vambo57]

Does that not suggest that they show a preference for the party that in terms of their policy on economics has it right rather than simply leaning to the left or the right? The FT have always had journalists who know their subject.

My view has always been that I want whatever government is in power to get it right for the good of the people and the country as a whole. I've never been all that worried about their leaning one way or the other until they f**ck up which is quite often. The United Kingdom with its faults works albeit it is imperfect. I've seen no conclusive evidence that an indepedent Scotland could do better. Why take the risk? Because you don't like England? Let's hear the denials.

England's all right in parts... it's Northern Ireland I don't like!

Seriously? I'd have thought the fact that Will Self supports it would be reason enough to turn even the most ardent Nat into a no voter. In all his time commenting on politics I can't remember him ever backing a winner

Self-abuse is a terrible thing! (so I'm told)

Edited March 4, 2014 by Vambo57

[bluto]

Sel-abuse is a terrible thing! (so I'm told)

Aw.... f...

Almost a perfect joke.

Edited March 3, 2014 by bluto

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I see Gideon Osborne is pushing through another tax levy on North Sea oil industry operators. This is on top of the prohibitive tax regime he imposed on new exploration a few years ago. And apparently its Independence that the oil industry should be worried about

Hey Dicko mibees this is why that Norwegian exploration company are quitting Scotland?

Edited March 3, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[salmonbuddie]

Allegedly quitting, ts, nothing backing up those claims.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

I think we should have a new poll to find out if there has been any movement with the undeciders.

[Stuart Dickson]

I think we should have a new poll to find out if there has been any movement with the undeciders.

That's a good shout actually. It's be interesting to see if there is much movement or if it is true that the forum just has people who are entrenched on it. Certainly I know I am more entrenched in the NO camp than I was when the poll started. The Natsis have failed to come up with any credible evidence that we'd all be better off.

[bluto]

I still won't be allowed a vote cos Ah'm no Scottish enough.

Irrelevant, anyway.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

That's a good shout actually. It's be interesting to see if there is much movement or if it is true that the forum just has people who are entrenched on it. Certainly I know I am more entrenched in the NO camp than I was when the poll started. The Natsis have failed to come up with any credible evidence that we'd all be better off.

Whereas the NO camp have provided evidence... that we are worse off by living it.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Whereas the NO camp have provided evidence... that we are worse off by living it.

Evidence has been published regarding Thatchers government hiding figures that shows Scotland would indeed have been better off her propaganda machine was in full swing back then so who is to say we are not being told more lies from the NO champagne.Mr Darling and all other Scottish MP's in Westminster have a lot to lose through a yes vote. There is going to be huge cuts because of the debt in a UK government and none supporting Tory Scotland will feel much pain make no mistake. Labour are very weak which will lead to another Tory government make no mistake about that. I'm voting yes to have a Scottish government that Scotland votes for out with that I strongly believe that we are more than capable of looking after our own interests better than Westminster can. MOD was asked where it would redeploy nuclear weapons in the event of a yes vote. It said it would be a problem because the rest of the UK is so populated. Sorry ? So it's ok to have that shit next to 4 million people of Scotland. Another thing this is not about Alex Salmond this is about the future of Scotland within a smaller World than it was 20 years ago.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I still won't be allowed a vote cos Ah'm no Scottish enough.

Irrelevant, anyway.

Apologies if you explained this in any of the previous 108 pages, but gonnae tell us why you think you should get a vote?

[bluto]

Again?

My birthplace, culture and background is Scots.

My family are in Scotland.

I visit a lot.

I work in Scotland.

I spend a lot of money up there.

I believe the Union has been pretty good for Scotland.

I would vote Yes if it was more than Pretendypence that was being offered.

I would vote Yes if the Queen and that baggage was being ditched.

I would vote Yes if the £ was not being clung to.

I support St Mirren.

etc etc

Any fracturing of the Union will impact upon every other person in that Union - when someone walks out on a marriage does only the person walking out get to say how that split should be organised?

(ps Never seen Pretendypence before - my coinage. I quite like it. )

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Again?

My birthplace, culture and background is Scots.

My family are in Scotland.

I visit a lot.

I work in Scotland.

I spend a lot of money up there.

I believe the Union has been pretty good for Scotland.

I would vote Yes if it was more than Pretendypence that was being offered.

I would vote Yes if the Queen and that baggage was being ditched.

I would vote Yes if the £ was not being clung to.

I support St Mirren.

etc etc

Any fracturing of the Union will impact upon every other person in that Union - when someone walks out on a marriage does only the person walking out get to say how that split should be organised?

(ps Never seen Pretendypence before - my coinage. I quite like it. )

With respect, there's a lot of emotion in there as opposed to reason and without wanting to address every point you don't live in Scotland (anymore) and don't vote in Scotland.

Across the globe the same criteria has been followed, i.e. the country seeking independence has decided.

To use your divorce analogy, I am sure you would be the first to condemn a society that refused to let one partner divorce the other

If voters in the other countries and principalities that make up the uk wish to change the constitutional make up of their country they should press their respective governments for a referendum

[bluto]

With respect, there's a lot of emotion in there as opposed to reason and without wanting to address every point you don't live in Scotland (anymore) and don't vote in Scotland.

Across the globe the same criteria has been followed, i.e. the country seeking independence has decided.

To use your divorce analogy, I am sure you would be the first to condemn a society that refused to let one partner divorce the other

If voters in the other countries and principalities that make up the uk wish to change the constitutional make up of their country they should press their respective governments for a referendum

However, I do work in Scotland. Apr-Nov last year. Similar this...

Which means I DO bide in Scotland possibly the majority of my year. Certainly, if you include holidays etc.

What balance do you think there's been in this thread between emotion and reason?

As noted, I don't mind the decision to leave - but I would like a genuine separation, not clinging desperately to as many good bits and the monarchy as can be kept, simply in order to buy a few more thick votes. That white paper saying which tv shows would not be lost is an example of that cultural cringe that I loathe. That is NOT independence.

Scotland can go solo... if it dares to.

I've lived happily in sin for 40+ years now. A successful-ish Union. I have form at knowing how to make things work.

Hence, I have previously suggested that I would prefer it if Scots didn't run away from the battle to change the constitutional shape of the UK and attempt to address the overwhelming power of wonderful London.

Even a solo Scotland would be affected by London. A Pretendypence Scotland would be an abject vassal state, especially if it tried to use the £ without currency union.

Old ground, rehashed. Apologies, but you DID ask...

[bluto]

ps 'making a Union work' does seem to involve being away from home an awfy lot..

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I wasn't condemning the emotion of the post, just saying it couldnt or shouldn't be used for giving you a vote.

The tv stuff was a cheeky wee response to Scottish no politicians saying we wouldn't get Dr who, eastenders, etc if we vote yes.

There's stuff I don't agree with but I view referendum as start of that journey, including a move to a Republic. You can't do both with one referendum though. Anyway as you say, oldground...

[oaksoft]

However, I do work in Scotland. Apr-Nov last year. Similar this...

Which means I DO bide in Scotland possibly the majority of my year. Certainly, if you include holidays etc.

What balance do you think there's been in this thread between emotion and reason?

As noted, I don't mind the decision to leave - but I would like a genuine separation, not clinging desperately to as many good bits and the monarchy as can be kept, simply in order to buy a few more thick votes. That white paper saying which tv shows would not be lost is an example of that cultural cringe that I loathe. That is NOT independence.

Scotland can go solo... if it dares to.

I've lived happily in sin for 40+ years now. A successful-ish Union. I have form at knowing how to make things work.

Hence, I have previously suggested that I would prefer it if Scots didn't run away from the battle to change the constitutional shape of the UK and attempt to address the overwhelming power of wonderful London.

Even a solo Scotland would be affected by London. A Pretendypence Scotland would be an abject vassal state, especially if it tried to use the £ without currency union.

Old ground, rehashed. Apologies, but you DID ask...

So because you can't get independence on YOUR terms you'd throw a strop and vote No out of spite?

You were criticising Yes voters for engaging in exactly this sort of thing the other day.

Bread buttered both sides you called it.

I think the vast majority of Yes voters would agree with your dream of what should have been in that white paper.

Me? I want rid of trident, the Queen the sterling - the list is endless.

However I'm not about to piss on my own children's future just because I can't get everthing I want.

The SNP are going down this route because they correctly believe that to get the middle ground voters they need to present independence as a thing which brings about as little change as possible.

In years to come there is no doubt that once we get independence some of those things you mention may come about.

We need the decision making powers FIRST. Only THEN can we elect governments to make all those other changes.

This is why I've been saying since day one that this isn't about trident or the queen or borders or currency or anything like that.

It's a very simple dry vote about who makes decisions affecting Scotland. I know it's boring but what happens after a Yes vote will be utterly dictated by who subsequently gets elected.

Everything else is just distracting gum bashing.

Labour voters who vote No just because of Salmond are going to feel like halfwits when Labour regain power in Scotland and find their own voters voted to deny them the tools to do the job they were elected for.

[bluto]

So because you can't get independence on YOUR terms you'd throw a strop and vote No out of spite?

You were criticising Yes voters for engaging in exactly this sort of thing the other day.

Bread buttered both sides you called it.

.....for.

No strop nor spite needed.

It would not be a vote for Independence as far as I was concerned. That would be a logical result of my thinking process rather than your admitted Voting Yes whatever the package arrived at. As I said in other posts, you can't be taken seriously.

Nowhere in my list do I complain about one aspect of what a politician says and then laud what another says. My decision is taken on my own terms. It's go for independence or no go.

You may think your decision is 'for the kiddies'.

I obviously don't give a f**k about them. And my opinion is neither do you, buying into half-hearted step forward which - as I argue above - will likely be the worst of both worlds.

Old ground - boring.

[oaksoft]

No strop nor spite needed.

It would not be a vote for Independence as far as I was concerned. That would be a logical result of my thinking process rather than your admitted Voting Yes whatever the package arrived at. As I said in other posts, you can't be taken seriously.

Nowhere in my list do I complain about one aspect of what a politician says and then laud what another says. My decision is taken on my own terms. It's go for independence or no go.

You may think your decision is 'for the kiddies'.

I obviously don't give a f**k about them. And my opinion is neither do you, buying into half-hearted step forward which - as I argue above - will likely be the worst of both worlds.

Old ground - boring.

You don't think that being able to make your own decisions about everything is independence?

Curious.

[linwood buddie]

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1932453_823437494349929_897816902_n.jpg

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Poor quality linwood buddie, adding nothing to any debate.

I think this is far more relevent

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/266027-scotland-is-facing-a-humanitarian-crisis-caused-by-poverty/

The "best of both worlds" and "the greatest union in the history of the world" - aye right!