Better Together - No You Can't Join The Eu - Eu Yes You Can Join

[Drew]

1. A five point swing according to latest polls. Not very large by anyone's standards, particularly as the Obama effect could well see the Yes campaign mobilise a greater share of its voters: it's one thing saying you're not in favour of independence to someone who stops you in the street or calls you up, it's quite another to actually got and state at the polls that Scotland should not be an independents country.

2. Simply incorrect - the latest poll I saw asking voters which way they would vote in the next general election (albeit it is a year away) showed that the only way of forming a government was for a Tory/UKIP coalition (or Labour/UKIP, but that would not happen). You can rest assured that a referendum would be the result. The Tories have already started moving in that direction by kicking out the only pro-EU members of cabinet and making ludicrous noises about withdrawing from the ECHR and by implication the Council of Europe - a charter that British lawyers drafted and an institution that the Brits were at the forefront of setting up. It is shameful.

3. I don't agree. Britain already has a ridiculous position within the EU, in that it cherry picks what it wants to take and seems unwilling to contribute. That is not how a union works to most rational people. The rest of the EU is fed up with Britain - witness Cameron's ridiculous posturing over Juncker, and his subsequent humiliation. It is not acceptable that Britain has a rebate in the first place, and I don't see the rest of the EU giving Britain further advantages as there is nothing in it for them.

4. Don't be so sure. The major parties campaigned for EU membership in the European elections and were dealt a bloody nose. As for your polls - simply not true. A majority of people are in favour of leaving, and they'd need only a 2% swing according to this poll from June (and when Scotland leaves, that could provie the necessary swing on its own):

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll

5. Scotland is currently in the EU with no power, no control and no voice. As an independent country, we would at the very least double our number of representatives in the parliament and have a say in the Commission. We currently have no say over the sterling (which is why Scotland should have its own currency and own central bank, but that will come in time). Our position will not be any worse off; in fact the contrary is true. Voting for independence is not saying that you don't want to trade with England (although voting to the EU certainly does mean saying you don't want to trade with Europe given that you will have left the internal market) and business would continue exactly as before because businessmen want to make money, not play party politics.

Very measured post.

You'll wish you hadn't, however....

[faraway saint]

Can I still go on holiday and use all the Euros I have under my mattress?

Great thread by the way.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Can I still go on holiday and use all the Euros I have under my mattress?

Great thread by the way.

Well done not far off your 30,000 post

[Stuart Dickson]

1. A five point swing according to latest polls. Not very large by anyone's standards, particularly as the Obama effect could well see the Yes campaign mobilise a greater share of its voters: it's one thing saying you're not in favour of independence to someone who stops you in the street or calls you up, it's quite another to actually got and state at the polls that Scotland should not be an independents country.

2. Simply incorrect - the latest poll I saw asking voters which way they would vote in the next general election (albeit it is a year away) showed that the only way of forming a government was for a Tory/UKIP coalition (or Labour/UKIP, but that would not happen). You can rest assured that a referendum would be the result. The Tories have already started moving in that direction by kicking out the only pro-EU members of cabinet and making ludicrous noises about withdrawing from the ECHR and by implication the Council of Europe - a charter that British lawyers drafted and an institution that the Brits were at the forefront of setting up. It is shameful.

3. I don't agree. Britain already has a ridiculous position within the EU, in that it cherry picks what it wants to take and seems unwilling to contribute. That is not how a union works to most rational people. The rest of the EU is fed up with Britain - witness Cameron's ridiculous posturing over Juncker, and his subsequent humiliation. It is not acceptable that Britain has a rebate in the first place, and I don't see the rest of the EU giving Britain further advantages as there is nothing in it for them.

4. Don't be so sure. The major parties campaigned for EU membership in the European elections and were dealt a bloody nose. As for your polls - simply not true. A majority of people are in favour of leaving, and they'd need only a 2% swing according to this poll from June (and when Scotland leaves, that could provie the necessary swing on its own):

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll

5. Scotland is currently in the EU with no power, no control and no voice. As an independent country, we would at the very least double our number of representatives in the parliament and have a say in the Commission. We currently have no say over the sterling (which is why Scotland should have its own currency and own central bank, but that will come in time). Our position will not be any worse off; in fact the contrary is true. Voting for independence is not saying that you don't want to trade with England (although voting to the EU certainly does mean saying you don't want to trade with Europe given that you will have left the internal market) and business would continue exactly as before because businessmen want to make money, not play party politics.

Chris

1. The very latest poll was conducted by ICM for the Scotland on Sunday. The poll was conducted during the period 7th - 11th of July and it showed Yes on 34%, No on 45%. That's an 11 point swing required not 5. If you discount the Surveynation and Panelbase polls the rest of the companies are finding very similar results. Panelbase produced all their polling data and it was criticised in a blog by one of the other companies directors where he explained that Panelbase were weighting their polls in a different manner to all the rest, putting far too high a significance on the Scottish Election results and not taking into account the number of seats the SNP gained from people's 2nd, 3rd and 4th place choices. We'll find out in September who's been right all along but the indication is that it will take an unprecedented swing. As for Obama - remember he's backing the No Campaign.

2. I don't know where you are looking for your opinion polls but that's just rubbish Chris. This is a list of all of the opinion polls on the General Election. A Tory/UKIP alliance wouldn't gain a majority. These are straight opinion polls. To get where you claim we would need to be under the UK Westminster Election System, the first past the post system, you would have to assume that in each constituency that voters would choose to elect a UKIP candidate over any of the main parties. We know from the European elections that UKIP had a problem screening all their candidates at that point. I would imagine that come the General Election they will struggle to get any seats at all. Indeed Nigel Farage himself believes that the best UKIP can hope for is 5 MP's. To put that into context it means that the SNP would be more likely partners in a Westminster Government coalition, than UKIP. In reality the Lib Dems are likely to still be in government and it will depend who they choose to ally with as to whether it will be Labour or Conservatives. Lib Dems will not accept an EU referendum. It's really not likely to happen.

3. Well you're wrong. The first thing Europe has done since appointing Juncker is to award the UK the position of EU Commissioner and David Cameron has put forward Lord Hill for the post. This is the EU game. Cameron may or may not be getting the concessions he wants but he is getting concessions. Many EU leaders have publicly stated their desire to see the UK stay in the EU. Matteo Renzi and Angela Merkel to name but two.

4. I'll not argue with you on this one. We're unlikely to get to this point anyway but I believe that very much like the Scottish Independence Referendum we'll see strong support for the status quo and we'll see concessions being offered by the EU to sweeten the pot.

5. Scotland in the EU as part of the UK holds a great deal of power. We have three different types of veto which pretty much means that the EU cannot dictate to the UK. Whether we would retain those vetos as an Independent country is open to speculation. Maybe the Scottish negotiators would manage to retain our share of the rebate, all our veto's and gain admission to the EU without any break. Even the SNP's own legal advisors says this admission is far from a certainty, never mind the terms we may be accepted in under. One thing is for sure though, you aren't playing the European game very well if you turn up outside the party looking like an ugly pissed up middle aged rent boy offering to take it up the arse from anyone who lets you in.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Just to throw another question into the mix regarding the EU. Can anyone explain to me why the Yes Campaign is so desperate to liken the possibilities of an Independent Scotland to those of Norway - a country that has refused to become a member state of the EU? And why are the SNP so keen to ask Scots to vote in a referendum on leaving one political union, but would refuse point blank to deny us a referendum on membership of another?

[beyond our ken]

Just to throw another question into the mix regarding the EU. Can anyone explain to me why the Yes Campaign is so desperate to liken the possibilities of an Independent Scotland to those of Norway - a country that has refused to become a member state of the EU? And why are the SNP so keen to ask Scots to vote in a referendum on leaving one political union, but would refuse point blank to deny us a referendum on membership of another?

Make your mind up-do you want a referendum or not?

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Just to throw another question into the mix regarding the EU. Can anyone explain to me why the Yes Campaign is so desperate to liken the possibilities of an Independent Scotland to those of Norway - a country that has refused to become a member state of the EU? And why are the SNP so keen to ask Scots to vote in a referendum on leaving one political union, but would refuse point blank to deny us a referendum on membership of another?

The only liken to Norway Stuart is the oil fund put aside for a rainy day. Where under Westminster we like throwing our young men into wars that having nothing to do with us. Under the UK government we are trillions in debt unlike Norway which has no debt simply because it utilized its oil and gas much better than we did. Can't understand why I'm replying to this because you already know that and of course because you are one of the very few tory voters who live in Scotland you wont agree with it.

[Stuart Dickson]

The only liken to Norway Stuart is the oil fund put aside for a rainy day. Where under Westminster we like throwing our young men into wars that having nothing to do with us. Under the UK government we are trillions in debt unlike Norway which has no debt simply because it utilized its oil and gas much better than we did. Can't understand why I'm replying to this because you already know that and of course because you are one of the very few tory voters who live in Scotland you wont agree with it.

No debt in Norway? I wish you'd stop regurgitating Yes Campaign bullshit. The Norway National Debt currently stands at 704,839,324,498kr. Just to convert that for you - that's £60,250,663,996 in a country with a population the size of Scotland. Around about £12,000 per head of population.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Make your mind up-do you want a referendum or not?

I don't want a referendum on either Scottish Independence or EU Membership. I'm quite happy with the status quo and I'm quite happy with how David Cameron is dealing with Europe. Referendums only spread uncertainty and instability around the business community losing us jobs and investment. They also cost a ridiculously large sum of money and give some pretty dreadful politicians far too much time in the limelight.

It is the Yes Campaign that you should be asking the question to though. Why demand that Scots get a referendum on our status within the UK, but then refuse Scots a referendum on EU Membership? Is it really just another example of Scottish democracy only being applicable when it suits Alex Salmond?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Hew Janus]

I don't want a referendum on either Scottish Independence or EU Membership. I'm quite happy with the status quo and I'm quite happy with how David Cameron is dealing with Europe. Referendums only spread uncertainty and instability around the business community losing us jobs and investment. They also cost a ridiculously large sum of money and give some pretty dreadful politicians far too much time in the limelight.

It is the Yes Campaign that you should be asking the question to though. Why demand that Scots get a referendum on our status within the UK, but then refuse Scots a referendum on EU Membership? Is it really just another example of Scottish democracy only being applicable when it suits Alex Salmond?

didnt see much of the bbc news this morning but I could have swore they mention that job seekers were at the lowest level since 2003 which would kind of suggest to me that the referendum hasn't caused that much uncertainty about employment in scotland

[Isabella Duke]

At least some people link to pages that back them up, whether that be from a named or unnamed source. There's a certain person who links to pages that say the opposite to what he says they do - so basically he discredits himself and calls himself a liar - we just agree with him on that.

dont't be so harsh on yourself

[Isabella Duke]

didnt see much of the bbc news this morning but I could have swore they mention that job seekers were at the lowest level since 2003 which would kind of suggest to me that the referendum hasn't caused that much uncertainty about employment in scotland

and also suggests that the tories r doing a great job?

[faraway saint]

Well done not far off your 30,000 post

Thanks.

Again.

[Hew Janus]

and also suggests that the tories r doing a great job?

or that the (S.N.P.) scottish government is attracting so much more inward investment.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The norwegian oil fund is so huge that it equates to the whole population being millionaires, which is rather more than £12k ????

The country now has a working debt as it's oil fund is so large that economically they decided this was a better way of working.

Arithmetic & Economics - if Dickson was as strong on these as he is on lying and scaremongering we might get a decent debate.

[Stuart Dickson]

The norwegian oil fund is so huge that it equates to the whole population being millionaires, which is rather more than £12k

The country now has a working debt as it's oil fund is so large that economically they decided this was a better way of working.

Arithmetic & Economics - if Dickson was as strong on these as he is on lying and scaremongering we might get a decent debate.

1 Krone = £0.11p

In the UK the majority of our workforce will pay 20% income tax. In Norway you pay a whopping 40%.

VAT in the UK is 17.5%, in Norway it's 25%.

If we taxed the f**k out of our workforce like they do in Norway I dare say we too could - over a period of 40 years - accumulate a fund worth around £100,000 per person too

Oh and in other research - quick research - I discovered that even in Norway there are strong complaints about the government underfunding their health service, and I also discovered that although they say University Fees are £0 per annum over there too - they do make a charge per semester that is payable by all students.

Hands up folks, anyone here want to pay TWICE as much income tax as we currently do?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

No debt in Norway? I wish you'd stop regurgitating Yes Campaign bullshit. The Norway National Debt currently stands at 704,839,324,498kr. Just to convert that for you - that's £60,250,663,996 in a country with a population the size of Scotland. Around about £12,000 per head of population.

Blimey £12k eh? That's a lot.

Phew.

What is the UK debt per head?

[salmonbuddie]

1 Krone = £0.11p

In the UK the majority of our workforce will pay 20% income tax. In Norway you pay a whopping 40%.

VAT in the UK is 17.5%, in Norway it's 25%.

If we taxed the f**k out of our workforce like they do in Norway I dare say we too could - over a period of 40 years - accumulate a fund worth around £100,000 per person too

Oh and in other research - quick research - I discovered that even in Norway there are strong complaints about the government underfunding their health service, and I also discovered that although they say University Fees are £0 per annum over there too - they do make a charge per semester that is payable by all students.

Hands up folks, anyone here want to pay TWICE as much income tax as we currently do?

Hands up folks, anyone here want to earn 42% more than they do right now?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

[Hew Janus]

1 Krone = £0.11p

In the UK the majority of our workforce will pay 20% income tax. In Norway you pay a whopping 40%.

VAT in the UK is 17.5%, in Norway it's 25%.

If we taxed the f**k out of our workforce like they do in Norway I dare say we too could - over a period of 40 years - accumulate a fund worth around £100,000 per person too

Oh and in other research - quick research - I discovered that even in Norway there are strong complaints about the government underfunding their health service, and I also discovered that although they say University Fees are £0 per annum over there too - they do make a charge per semester that is payable by all students.

Hands up folks, anyone here want to pay TWICE as much income tax as we currently do?

I thought uk vat was 20%. And before you slag off norwegian taxation check out the rights and benifits that norwegian workers are entitled too.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

1 Krone = £0.11p

In the UK the majority of our workforce will pay 20% income tax. In Norway you pay a whopping 40%.

VAT in the UK is 17.5%, in Norway it's 25%.

If we taxed the f**k out of our workforce like they do in Norway I dare say we too could - over a period of 40 years - accumulate a fund worth around £100,000 per person too

Oh and in other research - quick research - I discovered that even in Norway there are strong complaints about the government underfunding their health service, and I also discovered that although they say University Fees are £0 per annum over there too - they do make a charge per semester that is payable by all students.

Hands up folks, anyone here want to pay TWICE as much income tax as we currently do?

So if 1 NKr = £0.11 then how much does 1 million of them equal?

Its okay you dont to get the accurate figure as I know sums aren't your strong point. Here's a hint though, its (a lot) more than the £12k you were trumpeting on about.

The rest of your post is therefore irrelevant although I see that others have already managed to rip it apart "fact" by "fact"

[civilsaint]

Have you managed to dig out those Better Together quotes yet stating that Scotland would not get into the EU?

Or is it proving rather difficult (as they don't exist)?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I don't have the time civilsaint. You try typing better together scotland wont get into Eu into a search engine. There's hundreds of results from the last month, never mind 2012/13.

[oaksoft]

Have you managed to dig out those Better Together quotes yet stating that Scotland would not get into the EU?

Or is it proving rather difficult (as they don't exist)?

It's this sort of smug arrogant irrelevant nonsense which puts people off BT.

Almost every single BT supporter on this forum indulges in it.

It's the reason why BT can't shake Yes despite the apparently obvious benefits of staying in the Union. Less than 50% are prepared to vote for this with less than 2 months to go.

It's like being back in the playground.

Is there a BT supporter on this forum who isn't intent on talking down to Yes voters and generally behaving like a twat?

[faraway saint]

It's this sort of smug arrogant irrelevant nonsense which puts people off BT.

Almost every single BT supporter on this forum indulges in it.

It's the reason why BT can't shake Yes despite the apparently obvious benefits of staying in the Union. Less than 50% are prepared to vote for this with less than 2 months to go.

It's like being back in the playground.

Is there a BT supporter on this forum who isn't intent on talking down to Yes voters and generally behaving like a twat?

Seems to me that this could be applied to both sets of "supporters", a reason these threads are way beyond any point and have developed into a personal childish battle.

[civilsaint]

I don't have the time civilsaint. You try typing better together scotland wont get into Eu into a search engine. There's hundreds of results from the last month, never mind 2012/13.

I didn't ask how many results come up on Google when you type arbitrary words into the search engine. I asked you to support a claim you made that I know to be false. Better Together, nor any of their directors, nor any of their employees, nor any of their spokespersons have ever said "Scotland wouldn't get into the EU". That is a blatant fabrication that you and your Nationalist pals are more than happy to peddle.

I suggest that is why you have been unable to provide the quotes. Nothing to do with your lack of time.