Summer Football Debate

[nosferatu]

And if the trial doesn't work, you then have a season ending in Dec and the new season starts in Aug te following year?

[TopCat]

And if the trial doesn't work, you then have a season ending in Dec and the new season starts in Aug te following year?

Agreed.

A trial would be a disaster. Let's hope this daft idea never sees the light of day.

[nosferatu]

HibeeJibee from P&B - an expert on this matter - has posted the following yesterday:

Unless you played through international breaks, World Cups and Euros... which is clearly a daft proposition... your 'summer' seasons would be running mid-January to mid-December. Evidence from Scandinavia shows that it doesn't help European or international performances, and evidence from Eire shows it doesn't help crowds. Countries like Denmark, Russia, etc. have moved away from it.

You also have many contributory downsides like:

* Scottish Cup Final in December

* clubs qualifying for Europe having to wait 7/8 months to enter, and clubs reaching KO rounds having no closed season

* CL/EL groupstages and the conclusion and playoffs of international campaigns falling at the end of the season

* moving out-of-kilter with most other British and European leagues in terms of transfers etc.

* loss of well-attended Christmas and New Year matches

* having to undertake maintenance of pitches in December-January

* loss of 'glamour friendlies'

* etc.

All apparent benefits can be realised by starting in July and having a winter break in January. Not moving to playing mid-January to mid-December

[TsuMirren]

With respect though Foxbar_Bud, all you are doing there is listing the same collection of problems that have been listed and debated for years. That doesn't take the debate forward.

This discussion came about as a result of 'three-quarters of Scotland's top-flight clubs having told a BBC Scotland survey that they would consider a move to summer football'.

It's largely pointless those in favor listing the pros, same for those against change listing all the cons. The only sensible solution, given that three-quarters of our clubs see a case for considering the move, is to take the pain and organise a formal trial. It won't be easy, but you simply cannot take a divisive issue such as this forward without some form of trial. Listing reasons why a trial would be too hard is not in itself a winning argument for not trying.

If three-quarters of our clubs were dead against change then this debate would have died on it's feet. But that is not the scenario we have here. For or against, a trial surely seems a reasonable middle ground?

Sometimes you find that a debate doesn't need to go forward.There are many business solution architect firms who could learn that lesson, but I digress.

The quality of pitches is a major concern, indeed to me it almost trumps everything else when you consider the current need to have a bowling green of a park. Three quarters of our clubs should be considering absolutely anything, that doesn't mean all of those considerations should go forward or that they even could. I imagine they all consider paying less wages and not using agents, but that would be driven by the larger clubs who don't seem to care that around 10 or so of them are throttling the rest of the clubs around them. I may be wrong in my misgivings about the pitch, but I've had farmers tell me they just won't reseed etc through the winter. If I'm wrong then fair enough, but it'd have to be the groundsman who'd tell me...perhaps Stewart could get Tommy's views on it.

The financial implications for fans are interesting also. Doncaster obviously believes the cash spent by fans is a pot of cash that remains available no matter when the season starts. That's a view he possibly holds due to being the most overpaid individual in the history of world football and also living in a fantasy world. For any of us lucky enough to get a bonus, it means we have cash ready and spare around June/July and most of us have extra in February/March due to not paying council tax so we put it away. October/November/December/January just isn't a time for having enough for a season ticket or the new shirt/jacket/scarf/polo combination. Aside from that, people have historically just gotten used to having money spare for a season ticket purchase in May to July.

I can't see summer football giving us all the answers, not even if we do go with the two championships way of running things. No midweek games through December to February could help things, but that would potentially lead to a need for less fixtures and then we're back to that one again.

As for a trial...yeah how...do we run 15/16 to November then just live out Doncaster's ultimate wetty of just giving Celtic the title whilst promoting Rangers because it was unfair not to and then start season 16 in February until November? Who reworks all the contracts, the TV deals, the sponsorship contracts and everthing else that goes with it.

[nosferatu]

Some stats from HibeeJibee today:

Some people are citing the Republic of Ireland.

Their league was ranked 37th in Europe before they switched. They are now 40th (and have averaged 37th since changing).

Their average top division attendances before changing was 1700-1800. It's now 1500 (and has averaged 1700 since changing).

At best it appears to have made no difference to performance or attendance, at worst it appears to have been detrimental.

Only 1 league above us in the UEFA rankings play summer football.

Only 3 in the top half play summer football.

Not a single league in the top 20 plays summer football.

[Wrong Planet]

The fact these problems still remain unanswered after so many years may be that they cannot be remedied?

As for a trial? How would this work? by doing a one year trial, it could impact on 3 years worth of football. leaving clubs with massive gaps between one season finishing and the next starting.

Its easy to say lets give it a go, but there needs to be some thought behind how it would work and if it would work

I think the problem here Foxbar (and indeed nos, TC etc) is that we are all largely in agreement on one thing. As I've stated previously, and as you have clearly underlined, switching to summer football is hard. Plain and simple. There are arguments for, there are arguments against.

It seems worth repeating though... 'three-quarters of Scotland's top-flight clubs having told a BBC Scotland survey that they would consider a move to summer football'.

If 75% of our clubs are open to exploring this then that would suggest that there is support for a trial, regardless of whether you or I think it's a good thing or a bad thing or an easy thing or a hard thing.

[nosferatu]

I think the problem here Foxbar (and indeed nos, TC etc) is that we are all largely in agreement on one thing. As I've stated previously, and as you have clearly underlined, switching to summer football is hard. Plain and simple. There are arguments for, there are arguments against.

It seems worth repeating though... 'three-quarters of Scotland's top-flight clubs having told a BBC Scotland survey that they would consider a move to summer football'.

If 75% of our clubs are open to exploring this then that would suggest that there is support for a trial, regardless of whether you or I think it's a good thing or a bad thing or an easy thing or a hard thing.

Which clubs are in this 75% and which aren't though?

If the 25% of clubs who aren't interested account for 75% of attendances (and possibly more) then surely that wouldn't have a trial on that basis?

And some of those 75% include clubs who effectively want a break in the season in January, ie a winter break... not true summer football.

The others are favouring a season which runs March to December - but that isn't possible with the current fixture list. The leagues would need to be reorganised with less fixtures and bigger leagues... which against takes us back to which clubs exactly are in this 75%?

Unless all this is made clear then I don't believe that we really know if there is support for a trial or not.

[TsuMirren]

If 75% of our clubs are open to exploring this then that would suggest that there is support for a trial.

That suggests absolutely nothing of the sort, it vaguely implies that they would consider a trial if anything. There'd be so many working groups, studies, consultations...all the stuff Doncaster and everyone else at the SFA/SPFL are absolutely abysmal at. How could they support something that has nothing of substance connected to it? Even the commissioned report is currently a one page word document with the title "Doncaster's Master Plan".

[oaksoft]

I don't really understand why there is a scramble to move the football season. Many seem to be of the impression that every match would be bathed in sunshine - but as the parent of an athlete I can assure you that isn't the case. I've froze my bollocks off trying to shelter at Linwood in July, been battered by winds in Kilmarncok in September and I've never seen a warm day in Dumfries at the first outdoor race meeting in April. I've seen training sessions at Wishaw cancelled because the track is waterlogged many times throughout the "summer season" and I've seen track meetings cancelled because of high winds that would have made javelin throwing dangerous, never mind farcical.

I think the game would be better served leaving the season as it is, although under soil heating should be turned off. I do believe that if pitches are frozen then it's too cold for football fans to be expected to sit watching it, an it's also likely to be more dangerous to drive.

Instead of playing in December and January we'll be playing in June and July.

It's the difference between the two playing seasons you need to compare.

Talking about any other month is stupid because we'll be playing in all the other months in both systems.

If you're telling me you can't tell the difference between December and July then I can't help you TBH.

You solve further problems associated by playing in the World Cup by having 3 or 4 weeks of the season where you play twice a week.

For that one season, if we qualify, we could even drop one Cup for that year.

There are no hurdles here other than fear of change.

Trying this out is a no-brainer.

Edited June 11, 2015 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

A very clued up poster on p&b has been over this many times.

'summer' football in Scotland, with the current fixture set up, would start mid Jan and end mid Dec.

That "clued up poster" would be you.

And he'd be as wrong on that count as he is over his David Longwell obsession.

You've magic-ed an extra month of football from nowhere.

[oaksoft]

If we moved to summer football I wouldn't renew my season ticket, and I know I wouldn't be alone. There's simply far better alternatives to the football on a Saturday afternoon in the summer.

I don't believe you.

This is you and others trying to use emotional blackmail to get what you want.

You'd be there every week during the season and you do yourself no favours trying to pretend otherwise.

We need to try this out and stop being afraid of it failing.

My prediction is that there would be minimal difference in fan numbers to start with leaving clubs with tons of other benefits and almost no downside.

[nosferatu]

That "clued up poster" would be you.

And he'd be as wrong on that count as he is over his David Longwell obsession.

You've magic-ed an extra month of football from nowhere.

One thing is for certain, the phrase "clued up" could never be applied to you.

[oaksoft]

One thing is for certain, the phrase "clued up" could never be applied to you.

Then we DO have something in common.

[foxbar_bud]

My prediction is that there would be minimal difference in fan numbers to start with leaving clubs with tons of other benefits and almost no downside.

In all seriousness, such as?

If fan numbers stayed roughly the same, FWIW i agree there wouldnt be much of an increase/decrease, what would the point be?

[nosferatu]

Then we DO have something in common.

Good to see that you agree with me that you are clueless.

[oaksoft]

In all seriousness, such as?

If fan numbers stayed roughly the same, FWIW i agree there wouldnt be much of an increase/decrease, what would the point be?

There's a whole heap of savings to be made in terms of running the club including floodlighting, heating etc as we'll effectively be switching out December and January for June and July.

Better pitch surfaces would be possible as well swapping those sets of months resulting in better quality football and fewer injuries.

In the longer term, playing in warmer months may see more kids prepared to go to matches during the summer holidays if we have the set of 4 catchup midweek games organised for that time when the World Cup isn't on.

You'd lose some season ticket holders who might baulk at losing a couple of matches due to holidays but I can't believe that would be more than a handful and TBH they'll pay at the gate for the rest of the season which will bring in more money anyway.

A better TV deal should be possible and that'll be the biggest financial incentive.

The one thing I can't work out however is how to allow the pitch to recover. That might need some real grass/synthetic hybrid solution as done at Murrayfield but it should be solvable.

[oaksoft]

Good to see that you agree with me that you are clueless.

I'm saying that it's not important to me what you or anyone else thinks of me.

I thought I was pretty clear about that TBH.

[Drew]

I'm not convinced by the talk of people leaving the game in numbers as they have a load of other things to do during the summer.

It sounds as though Sonny leads a very active lifestyle, and that's admirable, but judging by the number of fat bassas that follow football, I'm not sure how many share that lifestyle.

I love going to a game on a sunny, late spring or summer afternoon. There is always Sunday to climb a Munro or abseil from the Glenfinnan Viaduct.

[nosferatu]

Doncaster on the BBC website today confirms that we currently have an 11 month fixture calendar.

As I pointed out in earlier post, unless you play through world cups and european championships the season will run mid Jan to mid Dec.

You'd be starting and finishing the season in winter. The Scottish cup final and important run in games could end up getting postponed.

Pitches couldn't be sorted mid winter.

It can't happen.

[nosferatu]

I'm saying that it's not important to me what you or anyone else thinks of me.

I thought I was pretty clear about that TBH.

And?

[Drew]

Doncaster on the BBC website today confirms that we currently have an 11 month fixture calendar.

If I was relying on testimony from the Cockwomble to back up my argument, I would be hanging up my debating pants for good!

[Stuart Dickson]

With respect though Foxbar_Bud, all you are doing there is listing the same collection of problems that have been listed and debated for years. That doesn't take the debate forward.

This discussion came about as a result of 'three-quarters of Scotland's top-flight clubs having told a BBC Scotland survey that they would consider a move to summer football'.

It's largely pointless those in favor listing the pros, same for those against change listing all the cons. The only sensible solution, given that three-quarters of our clubs see a case for considering the move, is to take the pain and organise a formal trial. It won't be easy, but you simply cannot take a divisive issue such as this forward without some form of trial. Listing reasons why a trial would be too hard is not in itself a winning argument for not trying.

If three-quarters of our clubs were dead against change then this debate would have died on it's feet. But that is not the scenario we have here. For or against, a trial surely seems a reasonable middle ground?

How many of these clubs have asked for their supporters views though?

It's often the case that a vocal minority make a lot of noise about the need for change - look at those who advocate standing at matches as a classic example - but that the majority are satisfied with the status quo.

It's not too late to tell Chairmen it'll cost them business and they can weigh up if they want fans through the turnstyles, or they want the chance of some extra TV money - something that this is undoubtedly aimed at getting

Edited June 11, 2015 by Stuart Dickson

[Wrong Planet]

How many of these clubs have asked for their supporters views though?

Yip, fair comment Stu. Cuts both ways right enough, plenty on here in favor of change, or at least exploring it further.

In terms of trial there is no question it is a tough ask. The Qatar World Cup in 2022 looked like it presented an opportunity due to it's timing, however aligning anything with that event, as things stand, would be madness for obvious reasons.

[Stuart Dickson]

There's a whole heap of savings to be made in terms of running the club including floodlighting, heating etc as we'll effectively be switching out December and January for June and July.

Better pitch surfaces would be possible as well swapping those sets of months resulting in better quality football and fewer injuries.

In the longer term, playing in warmer months may see more kids prepared to go to matches during the summer holidays if we have the set of 4 catchup midweek games organised for that time when the World Cup isn't on.

You'd lose some season ticket holders who might baulk at losing a couple of matches due to holidays but I can't believe that would be more than a handful and TBH they'll pay at the gate for the rest of the season which will bring in more money anyway.

A better TV deal should be possible and that'll be the biggest financial incentive.

The one thing I can't work out however is how to allow the pitch to recover. That might need some real grass/synthetic hybrid solution as done at Murrayfield but it should be solvable.

Savings you say? So where would the clubs do their pre season training in January? Better pitch surfaces? Bollocks. How are you going to ensure that when your groundsman isn't going to be able to reseed the park. Can you imagine trying to relay the playing surface in December. You'd have to be f**king nuts. Fewer injuries? Really - yet you say that in World Cup and European Championship seasons players should just get used to playing far more midweek games to get a couple of months worth of fixtures cleared in time to take part in those tournament.

The only possible benefit would be in the TV deal. TV companies might pay slightly more to cover matches on their channels through the summer months - although clearly that's only going to work every second year, cause in between they'll be blowing all their money on the World Cup and the European Championships rather than filling their schedules with dead air.

[Stuart Dickson]

Yip, fair comment Stu. Cuts both ways right enough, plenty on here in favor of change, or at least exploring it further.

In terms of trial there is no question it is a tough ask. The Qatar World Cup in 2022 looked like it presented an opportunity due to it's timing, however aligning anything with that event, as things stand, would be madness for obvious reasons.

It's simple really. The Supporters Direct survey done in conjunction with the SPFA and SFA this year had a question on summer football. What were the responses to that? Have the findings ever been published? Or are they just ignoring the findings just as they did when the previous survey told them that fans wanted bigger leagues and fewer fixtures?