Summer Football Debate

[nosferatu]

It will happen...

Just possibly too late to save our game.

I went to watch Albion Rovers v Peterhead rather than spend over £60 on taking two of us to see ICT vs Saints.

I enjoyed the outing.

I watched 3 PTFC games as a neutral over the last 2 seasons as it was affordable whilst our away games were not.

TV money does indeed matter.

As long as we chase it we will continue to lose our paying fan base.

Back in 1968, Scotland were the equivalent of number 2 in the UEFA rankings. The previous 2 decades had seen a wide variation in clubs winning the league title and cups.

Scottish clubs had excelled in Europe with the Old Firm both winning trophies and clubs like Kilmarnock, Dunfermline, Dundee & Hibs all reaching the latter rounds.

There was no football on TV, entry price was extremely cheap and ground capacities were massive.

You could say it was the pinnacle of Scottish football on the playing field.

And we had a big top flight...

Yet attendances were lower than they are today...

And attendances continued to fall, even during the Aberdeen & Dundee Utd new firm era which Scotland back in the UEFA top 2 rankings and had a national team which had world class players and qualified for major tournaments.

You say that the game is dying, yet attendances in Scotland over the past few years are at a historic post 1950s high for most clubs.

The game isn't dying and the bigger clubs won't ever vote to replace games against their main rivals with games against Alloa, Cowdenbeath, etc..

[Thorizaar]

Raith Rovers v Brechin today postponed. Waterlogged pitch.

[bluto]

Raith Rovers v Brechin today postponed. Waterlogged pitch.

And... BOOM!

Welcome back, Thorizaar.

You don't post often now but you post potently.

[BuddieinEK]

Back in 1968, Scotland were the equivalent of number 2 in the UEFA rankings. The previous 2 decades had seen a wide variation in clubs winning the league title and cups.

Scottish clubs had excelled in Europe with the Old Firm both winning trophies and clubs like Kilmarnock, Dunfermline, Dundee & Hibs all reaching the latter rounds.

There was no football on TV, entry price was extremely cheap and ground capacities were massive.

You could say it was the pinnacle of Scottish football on the playing field.

And we had a big top flight...

Yet attendances were lower than they are today...

And attendances continued to fall, even during the Aberdeen & Dundee Utd new firm era which Scotland back in the UEFA top 2 rankings and had a national team which had world class players and qualified for major tournaments.

You say that the game is dying, yet attendances in Scotland over the past few years are at a historic post 1950s high for most clubs.

The game isn't dying and the bigger clubs won't ever vote to replace games against their main rivals with games against Alloa, Cowdenbeath, etc..

Mr Doncaster... you are wrong!

[nosferatu]

Mr Doncaster... you are wrong!

On the contrary, the facts speak for themselves.

Attendances over the past few years in Scottish football are at an historical post 1950s high.

higher than when Scottish football was a European power.

higher than when we had a lot more domestic competition.

higher than when there was no football on TV.

higher than when gate prices were far cheaper.

and higher than when we had a large top flight.

Take a look at the history of Scottish football attendances yourself.

[BuddieinEK]

On the contrary, the facts speak for themselves.

Attendances over the past few years in Scottish football are at an historical post 1950s high.

higher than when Scottish football was a European power.

higher than when we had a lot more domestic competition.

higher than when there was no football on TV.

higher than when gate prices were far cheaper.

and higher than when we had a large top flight.

Take a look at the history of Scottish football attendances yourself.

I believe all the stats... no disagreements there.

What I totally disagree with is that if Scottish football continues to be TVs bitch, fans WILL desert it and there will be no next generation to help it recover when the TV cash is pulled.

[nosferatu]

I believe all the stats... no disagreements there.

What I totally disagree with is that if Scottish football continues to be TVs bitch, fans WILL desert it and there will be no next generation to help it recover when the TV cash is pulled.

That's a point of view I've been hearing I've been hearing for the past 30 years, yet attendances have gone up.

Football clubs will follow the facts and reality and not the subjective opinion of any individuals.

The use of phrases such as "TV's bitch" are utterly meaningless. The use of such aggressive language does nothing to make your point, quite the opposite.

And my point about the bigger clubs wanting to play each other in a smaller league rather than have a bigger league is totally independent of TV money.

TV money in Scotland is a fraction of a club's income in Scotland compared to club's in England. And the formation of the smaller leagues in Scotland in 1975 was years before any significant TV money hit the game.

[Hambud]

What are the results of the poll? I cant see them using the app.

[Hambud]

For what its worth i'd keep it as is.

[Stuart Dickson]

Back in 1968, Scotland were the equivalent of number 2 in the UEFA rankings. The previous 2 decades had seen a wide variation in clubs winning the league title and cups.

Scottish clubs had excelled in Europe with the Old Firm both winning trophies and clubs like Kilmarnock, Dunfermline, Dundee & Hibs all reaching the latter rounds.

There was no football on TV, entry price was extremely cheap and ground capacities were massive.

You could say it was the pinnacle of Scottish football on the playing field.

And we had a big top flight...

Yet attendances were lower than they are today...

And attendances continued to fall, even during the Aberdeen & Dundee Utd new firm era which Scotland back in the UEFA top 2 rankings and had a national team which had world class players and qualified for major tournaments.

You say that the game is dying, yet attendances in Scotland over the past few years are at a historic post 1950s high for most clubs.

The game isn't dying and the bigger clubs won't ever vote to replace games against their main rivals with games against Alloa, Cowdenbeath, etc..

See all the stuff in bold - that's the reason we should switch back to larger leagues and a fairer voting system.

Since 1975 we've put the whole of the Scottish game into the hands of Celtic and Rangers. We've gerrymandered finances to ensure that Rangers and Celtic were able to keep the lion share of all gate money in the game. We've gerrymandered the voting structure to ensure that no proposal could be carried in Scottish Football without the consent of both Old Firm clubs. The reason people are saying the "game is on it's knees" in Scotland, despite all of the evidence of improving finances at lower league clubs is because the top clubs in Scotland have become so totally reliant on what Rangers and Celtic bring to the top flight - and for the last three seasons Rangers haven't been in the top flight to keep the money rolling in.

The current structure has damaged the game in Scotland. You're right - not in terms of money or in terms of average gates - but in terms of ability, credibility and international standing.

[nach0king]

International standing isn't going to be reversed by a switch to summer football. Leagues with any hope of competing in European competition all play a winter season (Ukraine and Russia were the last holdouts.)

While we're at a low ebb rankings-wise, it's not been that long since our club ranking as 10th - a ridiculously high position for a league of our size. Much like the national team, it's cyclical. I fully expect us to be comfortably back in the top 20 in a few years.

Above all else, the top flight's doing fine without Rangers. It would do better, financially, with Rangers, but we were promised an armageddon that never arrived. That suggests to me that we're not really that reliant on it at all.

By any meaningful indicator Scottish football's doing pretty well, certainly better than most other European leagues of countries our size. Cyprus are at a historical high, Croatia are improving... other than that we're looking quite good.

Again - less than a decade ago our clubs were outranking those of Turkey, Belgium, Ukraine, Switzerland, Greece... and we were still a laughing stock then, our game was dying etc. There's a lot of wolf crying in Scottish football, none of which would be resolved by summer football anyway.

What would actually help Scottish football more than whining about yet another restructure is if the people running and covering the game could look at things objectively for a minute and stop pretending everything is horrible. Gilmour's bad for this but don't take that as a crack at St. Mirren because Rae at my club is even worse.

[nach0king]

You say that, but what if having that small group of lower quality clubs leads to slightly higher attendances due to the possibility of wins and unbeaten runs. Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc would also have a chance to be closer to Celtic through assuming away less points. Plus, home games against bigger teams become events as they only come round once a season. Meanwhile, lower down the tree you have clubs either at the top table or one promotion away...exactly what they all want now. You have some clubs able to charge more for sponsorship, others being more family friendly as the kids could see more wins or better football.

Dunfermline and Raith have been in Europe, East Fife and others have had cup runs or big cup games. Down south they would get a bit of respect, documentaries etc. Up here it's "pfft, they're not the Old Fim" or Premiership Chairman trying to railroad them. It's sickening and has to stop, indeed as a club we'd surely see an overall attendance jump. One 1,500 lost by not playing Celtic at home X2, replaced by 8 or so rises of 200 due to a decent run and top half placing. More fans, more sales, more footfall...I'd rather trial that than summer football.

I take it you were asleep during Gretna's "dream" run to Europe and the top flight? The BBC had a new documentary on them at least once a fortnight.

Why don't you look at attendances for teams who've already managed to secure top-half finishes, even top-three finishes, in the current setup? Compare Inverness' attendances in their successful seasons to those of their bottom six finishes. Go ahead, I'll wait. Do the same for St. Johnstone.

Scottish football is doing just fine. We don't need to Portugal up our top flight with a bunch of absolute dung like Morton and Alloa. I can just about see the argument for a 37-game, 16-team top flight. Anything like 20 is just absolute madness, though.

[TopCat]

^ Agree with all that.

I think the bottom line is people like to moan, football fans especially.

Fans love nostalgia in particular. They love to look back on days of yore and pretend everything was great back then and everything is now rubbish and dying.

A quick examination of the facts proves these statements to be nonsense. Scottish football is in relatively great shape on and off the pitch.

I wish people in our media talked it up more, but I suppose you get more attention by being negative and controversial.

[Vambo57]

We can still talk the game up with Summer fooball and bigger leagues, and I could go without thermals on

[Stuart Dickson]

International standing isn't going to be reversed by a switch to summer football. Leagues with any hope of competing in European competition all play a winter season (Ukraine and Russia were the last holdouts.)

While we're at a low ebb rankings-wise, it's not been that long since our club ranking as 10th - a ridiculously high position for a league of our size. Much like the national team, it's cyclical. I fully expect us to be comfortably back in the top 20 in a few years.

Above all else, the top flight's doing fine without Rangers. It would do better, financially, with Rangers, but we were promised an armageddon that never arrived. That suggests to me that we're not really that reliant on it at all.

By any meaningful indicator Scottish football's doing pretty well, certainly better than most other European leagues of countries our size. Cyprus are at a historical high, Croatia are improving... other than that we're looking quite good.

Again - less than a decade ago our clubs were outranking those of Turkey, Belgium, Ukraine, Switzerland, Greece... and we were still a laughing stock then, our game was dying etc. There's a lot of wolf crying in Scottish football, none of which would be resolved by summer football anyway.

What would actually help Scottish football more than whining about yet another restructure is if the people running and covering the game could look at things objectively for a minute and stop pretending everything is horrible. Gilmour's bad for this but don't take that as a crack at St. Mirren because Rae at my club is even worse.

I kind of agree. Summer football isn't going to help the game in Scotland - I said as much previously. And we certainly do have a habit in Scotland of talking the game down which is bizarre since this season is probably the strongest (financially - thanks to Rangers predicament) we've seen many of our senior clubs in possibly three decades.

Is it cyclical? To be honest with you I don't think so. There's a number of major reasons the domestic game in Scotland has fallen so heavily down the rankings. I could post pages and pages on this topic but if I can just highlight two really obvious factors. First is youth development. We're wasting a lot of money in our senior game recruiting players as young as 8 years old, thousands of whom will never be more than shirt fillers in any of the development squads. We give them false hope, free kits, travel, and we take them out of the youth football system where they'd be paying money in to play football with their mates. To fund this our National Body throw huge sums of sponsorship money at it despite all the evidence showing it's not working. It's stupid and it needs to stop. The second is money - St Johnstone for example have for their fifth consecutive season qualified for the Europa Cup and for their fifth successive year they've lost money out of their European campaign. Whilst our second, third and fourth placed clubs see European football as a financial burden, and whilst those clubs fail to progress to the group stages, we'll continue to fall down the rankings.

And the leagues? Well for me it's obvious we need a greater share of the power base to ensure we can continue to make the kind of game saving decisions that saw Rangers forced to come back from the fourth tier of Scottish Football. The game cannot be trusted to just those who run Rangers and Celtic - we need to break that power monopoly to ensure that each senior member has an equal vote. And we need a larger top tier so that the wealth is better spread. I'd agree with a 16 or 18 team league to be honest, but it's hard to do that without a loss of revenue from fewer fixtures. We've got the league we've got with 42 member clubs, and top flight clubs claiming they need 18 home games at least to keep the books balanced. As a result a top tier of 20 teams seems to work best.