Being A Christian

[FTOF]

Jesus said .

No he didn't.

[Stuart Dickson]

If you read through the forum I think you will see I was attacking one individual not the Christian faith or any other faith for that matter. On another post I praised a couple of Christians I know.

You were the one who brought his faith into it though IoBS. Regardless of our beliefs we should all be judged to the same standards.

[insaintee]

I assume you didn't have to read it because you've realised that I was right all along.

Naw

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You were the one who brought his faith into it though IoBS. Regardless of our beliefs we should all be judged to the same standards.

Would that be your standards?

My standards?

The standards of a belief system or religious group?

Whether you agree with IoBS or not, the one thing he did in his original post was compare the individual to the standards that were expects in himself and others via his religion.

No need to thank me.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

If you read through the forum I think you will see I was attacking one individual not the Christian faith or any other faith for that matter. On another post I praised a couple of Christians I know.

In your original post opening the thread you wrote: "The hprocacy of religious people for me is a big let down though should I be surprised probably not. No wonder church attendances are falling on Christian based religion. "

Am I wrong in thinking that when you write of "The hprocacy of religious people" you are using the plural and not just speaking about one person, i.e. your boss? The comment about the hypocracy of religious people (plural) also seems to explain your subsequent comment about falling church attendances, unless that too, only refers to your boss putting everyone else in Scotland off the Christian faith.

[insaintee]

It took you long enough to figure that out.

Thought this was dead and buried. But you Jesused it

[Dibbles old paperboy]

No he didn't.

Two thousand years from now I'm pretty confident that billions of people will still know, memorise and follow the things Jesus said long after history forgets who Richard Dawkins was and what he said

[TopCat]

Two thousand years from now I'm pretty confident that billions of people will still know, memorise and follow the things Jesus said long after history forgets who Richard Dawkins was and what he said

I have completely the opposite view.

I believe in 2000 years all religions will be viewed as utterly bizarre behaviour. Kind of like the way we view the Ancient Greek gods and Egyptian gods and Norse gods now. Of course there's no more evidence that any of these religions have anything less to them than Christianity or Islam or whatever else.

It's no surprise to see church attendances declining across Scotland, and congregations ageing. This will only continue. We live in a well educated increasingly rational society, and there just isn't as many people willing to believe such outlandish claims. Church attendances thrive in a poorly educated society, like ours in times gone by.

Edited March 2, 2016 by TopCat

[insaintee]

I have completely the opposite view.

I believe in 2000 years all religions will be viewed as utterly bizarre behaviour. Kind of like the way we view the Ancient Greek gods and Egyptian gods and Norse gods now. Of course there's no more evidence that any of these religions have anything less to them than Christianity or Islam or whatever else.

It's no surprise to see church attendances declining across Scotland, and congregations ageing. This will only continue. We live in a well educated increasingly rational society, and there just isn't as many people willing to believe such outlandish claims. Church attendances thrive in a poorly educated society, like ours in times gone by.

I would say more people know about the Greek, Egyptian and Norse gods then know about Richard Dawkins.

I think it is fair to suggest that these mythologies still have resonance with a great number of people.

[TopCat]

I would say more people know about the Greek, Egyptian and Norse gods then know about Richard Dawkins.

I think it is fair to suggest that these mythologies still have resonance with a great number of people.

Well Richard Dawkins is hardly the only atheist in the world. He isn't some deity we all worship, he's just another guy. Infact I think he's a bit of a weirdo and there's far better atheist communicators out there.

Sky fairy stories and Santa Clause is one thing. No harm having an interest in them, or even them resonating with you.

To really believe them though? Come on now.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Church attendances thrive in a poorly educated society, like ours in times gone by.

So why are churches not booming in the poorest areas of Scotland with the worst education, and well educated areas with more money have the healthiest congregations if you judge them by numbers attending, volunteers actively involved etc.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Church attendances thrive in a poorly educated society, like ours in times gone by.

To return to IOBS's opening post this must mean there is a shortage of hypocritical liars in poorly educated society too!

Makes you wonder why churches have often played an integral role in providing education throughout the world if it suits them to keep people poor and stupid.

[TopCat]

So why are churches not booming in the poorest areas of Scotland with the worst education, and well educated areas with more money have the healthiest congregations if you judge them by numbers attending, volunteers actively involved etc.

Well even the worst educated areas are still well educated when you compare them to days of yore , when everyone in the village to church. The vast majority of people can read and write now for example.

I know of a couple people who go to church for networking purposes, social and business. Which is fair enough, perhaps why it's higher in more prosperous areas. It's still far lower than it was years ago though, and it's declining, and it's showing no signs of stopping declining. Just last week Coats memorial church in Paisley closed its doors because of low attendances. Cities across the UK are full of old churches which have been closed and converted into other uses, hopefully they do the same with the Coats Memorial. I think it would make a cracking live music/theatre venue.

Religion does fascinate me. It fascinates me how an otherwise educated, rational and intelligent person can genuinely believe a virgin gave birth for example. Or water was turned into wine, or a guy died and came back to life.

[Stuart Dickson]

Well even the worst educated areas are still well educated when you compare them to days of yore , when everyone in the village to church. The vast majority of people can read and write now for example.

I know of a couple people who go to church for networking purposes, social and business. Which is fair enough, perhaps why it's higher in more prosperous areas. It's still far lower than it was years ago though, and it's declining, and it's showing no signs of stopping declining. Just last week Coats memorial church in Paisley closed its doors because of low attendances. Cities across the UK are full of old churches which have been closed and converted into other uses, hopefully they do the same with the Coats Memorial. I think it would make a cracking live music/theatre venue.

Religion does fascinate me. It fascinates me how an otherwise educated, rational and intelligent person can genuinely believe a virgin gave birth for example. Or water was turned into wine, or a guy died and came back to life.

Do you not just think it's a case of people becoming less sociable rather than less religious?

I know quite a few people who don't go to church but who do believe in a God, and in an afterlife of sorts and whilst I would never claim to know anyone with an extraordinarily high IQ these people certainly aren't as stupid as some of the usual crew posting on other threads on here.

Obviously church attendances are falling and you're absolutely right about churches closing but you could just as easily point to the falling numbers attending pubs and the large number of pub closures in recent years.

I grew up around the deaf church in Glasgow and I know it really was more of a social club than a religious place despite the fact that they had an excellent minister back in the day. I read an article in one of their magazines this week where one of the social workers there was talking about falling numbers at the club and he said that falling figures were down to the rise in social media. He gave some examples saying that the men playing football for the club no longer had to come in to the club to find out if they were picked, instead they'd check it on Facebook. Members don't need to come in to find out what's on over the coming week, they can check that online too. And they don't need to go to the club to have a chat any more. They used to be isolated, unable to phone each other, but now they simply send text messages, or have chats on Facebook. I think that might be a microcosm of what is happening in other churches too.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Religion does fascinate me. It fascinates me how an otherwise educated, rational and intelligent person can genuinely believe a virgin gave birth for example. Or water was turned into wine, or a guy died and came back to life.

And yet we take it for granted the thanks to IVF and similar medical advances men and women who have never met each other, or had sexual intercourse can be genetic parents. people with gay orientations can become mums or dads without having to have heterosexual sex etc but we say it is too difficult or weird for the Creator of the universe to rise from the dead when paramedic resuscitate people every day with defibrillators... humans are smart enough to do this but not God apparently. Can God only do stuff if humans have demonstrated they also have the technology... not that I am saying Jesus was a test tube baby or had a defib machine in the tomb.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Well even the worst educated areas are still well educated when you compare them to days of yore , when everyone in the village to church. The vast majority of people can read and write now for example.

I know of a couple people who go to church for networking purposes, social and business. Which is fair enough, perhaps why it's higher in more prosperous areas. It's still far lower than it was years ago though, and it's declining, and it's showing no signs of stopping declining. Just last week Coats memorial church in Paisley closed its doors because of low attendances. Cities across the UK are full of old churches which have been closed and converted into other uses, hopefully they do the same with the Coats Memorial. I think it would make a cracking live music/theatre venue.

Religion does fascinate me. It fascinates me how an otherwise educated, rational and intelligent person can genuinely believe a virgin gave birth for example. Or water was turned into wine, or a guy died and came back to life.

Just this week it was announced that the decision to close Coats Memorial has been reversed and a closed nightclub in Girvan has been given a new lease of life as a church: Milestone Community Church. The UK is also full of schools who have church services taking place in them at weekends as some churches decide they don't want to have the high overheads on maintaining big old buildings (like Coats) and would rather rent a school or community centre for bigger Sunday services and use a small church hall for midweek meetings and youth groups.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

There are probably more people about just now that know things that Confucius said than know things that Jesus (reportedly) said. What exactly does it prove?

Confucius... isn't he old? Did he really live? Are we sure he really said that? I've yet to hear 1 primary school pupil tell me 1 thing Confucius said in my 18 years of visiting schools. In the last few years I can remember no adult quoting him in conversation either.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

First off, I agree about the Coats Memorial. That would be an excellent use for it.

Secondly, I agree (even though you didn't explicitly say this) that it is beyond comprehension how an intelligent person, who would normally require proof about any claim, can accept religion without any proof whatsoever. To me it is like a gambling addiction, religious people just "feel" that it's right the same way a gambler constantly "feels" that his luck is about to change. It may very well be the same gene that causes people who should know better to believe as causes people to get addicted.

Now to the disagreeing.

The bible doesn't say that Mary was a virgin, I've already explained that on this thread.

"The Bible" does say Mary was a virgin. Some scholars have questioned whether New Testament authors had correctly understood an Old Testament reference and suggested something was lost in translation from Hebrew to Greek... but whatever you make of that, New Testament authors do claim Jesus was born of a virgin.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

But why would you discount those gods? You are more than willing to believe in one God, why not many? There's an old saying that the difference between an atheist and a Christian is that the atheist just believes in one less god than the Christian. You've already discounted thousands of gods, I've just discounted one more.

If there is a god then, at most, only one religion, or sect within a religion, can be right with the rest of us going to the bad fire. This means that the vast majority of humans are going to some sort if hell. Why would a god create a world where the vast majority of his beloved creations were going to hell? Especially when, at some point in their lives, most people would have been "wanting" to believe in something greater than themselves. If he exists then he is an evil bastard, though I prefer to look on it as proof that he doesn't exist.

Alternatively, on the question of hell, why would a good God who respected human free will force atheists to spend eternity in heaven with him when they spent their whole lives running away from him and mocking him as an evil bastard? If people have consistently chosen to reject God all through their life why should he inflict heaven on them against their will after they die?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Dibbles old paperboy

[Dibbles old paperboy]

The bible says that she wasn't made pregnant by a man. It doesn't say that she had never had sex, there's a difference.

Perhaps you have such a problem with ancient historical documents because you insist on reading them only through modern lenses and drawing distinctions which people didn't tend to make at the time the documents were written? Matthew's Gospel and Luke's Gospel both refer to Mary as a virgin in the original Greek text as well as in English translations from the Greek text.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Education these days, pffft.

Good news for the church though? All these badly educated thicky bricks will soon see church numbers soaring again. They'll be building an extension at Coats before we know it :-)

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Luke 1:26-38New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

The birth of Jesus foretold

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, ‘Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you.’

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants for ever; his kingdom will never end.’

34 ‘How will this be,’ Mary asked the angel, ‘since I am a virgin?’

35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.’

38 ‘I am the Lord’s servant,’ Mary answered. ‘May your word to me be fulfilled.’ Then the angel left her.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

The extension will be what they call the Green Room.

You seem to assume that live music venues and theatres are doing a roaring trade in Paisley and we need more and bigger venues to cope with the demand!

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Wait a minute, how do you know what distinctions they made 2000 years ago?

Matthew's Gospel is pretty clear in saying Mary and Joseph did not have sex until after Jesus was born and she had not broken her engagement vows and had sex with anyone else. Matthew Gospel and Luke's Gospel do not say she had sex with a non-human.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[a]: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1: 18)

Nothing I read in Matthew or Luke suggests Mary had sex with a man prior to Jesus being born, or having sex with the Holy Spirit. It is also pretty clear that people were familiar with how babies were conceived and the Gospel accounts are claiming that the circumstances of Jesus' conception (but not his birth) make him different from any other person in history.