bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 20 hours ago, Lord Pityme said: So you think its a sustainable approach to just let the club pay whatever bills they like with our money, and members (AKA Owners) should simply know their place..? yeah they seem to favour that model of fan/member/owners participation down the Paisley Road, and look how well it has worked out for their new club. I think if the majority of paying fans were against it then no it would not be sustainable. The fact of the matter is, all evidence suggests the majority of paying members are more than happy for the money to go to SMFC to allow them to spend funds in other areas. Not sure what's so difficult to grasp about that? I do not understand your second point at all, it seems completely irrelevant to the debate. St Mirren are spending well within their means (other club wasn't and was breaking the law) and this is a ring fenced additional fund that provides a very small item of support. If it wasn't there the aspects covered would either be easily funded or easily stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said: Only person mentioning a new stand or East wing at Ralston is ( you ) then you go on to laugh at yourself ? All of us have said the extra cash has been used for important causes and should continue to but does the cash have to be burnt up in one go every month ? Everyone will have ideas. We have had problems and complaints with the PA why not help to upgrade the PA after all it is part of the fans match day experience. Having heard good PA systems at other clubs it does help to lift the atmosphere for fans in turn lift the atmosphere for the players as fans vocally get behind the team. How about painting the inside of stand public areas. I'm sure other fans have their own ideas. In other words let's help improve the fans match day experience. Yes continue to help those who need help but let's also help improve things for fans after all we are going to own the club. I'm assuming those ideas have been presented and rejected then based on your response? Too be honest I agree with them and think they'd be appropriate. Would I vote for it over the analyst and sports scientist? Not a chance and I feel the majority would likely feel the same based on this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: Whatever the current level of membership Smisa needs to re-chart its course. Theres a long, long way to go before smisa members take over the majority shareholding in the club, and buds that have followed the saints for more than a season or two know for every high we have savoured, we seemed to spend five or more years enduring lows. this isnt Smisa committee bashing, this is a clear belief and understanding gained from years of similar experience, that is if you fail to fully and effectively engage, represent and involve your stakeholders (smisa members etc) then interest and commitment will fall away. Take a scenario most of us have witnessed, a fantastic promotion winning season, followed by automatic relegation and dire, dull ugly football that almost leads to oblivion for the club. imagine the potential impact that may have on membership, and the financial position of the club! The current model and set up might not be able to deliver or sustain smisa's fan ownership goals.... what then? if you want a seemingly small, but telling example of Smisa simply not being proactive in engaging with the members then the fact the committee have in place an agreed position of not participating/boycotting any comment on this forum should set off alarm bells. Yes ffs the one fans forum with a decent/regular audience is being shunned. Main reason for that is simply you..! Are too real for them to handle. the lack of foresight in proactively engaging with the members, and working with them to build and improve Smisa is the main reason i stopped working with them. Still a member, and barring catastrophe, always will be. But in the words of Hugh Cornwell "something better change" If the year to February last year didn't see membership dwindling then nothing will. That was as bad as it's been in a long, long, time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, bazil85 said: I think if the majority of paying fans were against it then no it would not be sustainable. The fact of the matter is, all evidence suggests the majority of paying members are more than happy for the money to go to SMFC to allow them to spend funds in other areas. Not sure what's so difficult to grasp about that? I do not understand your second point at all, it seems completely irrelevant to the debate. St Mirren are spending well within their means (other club wasn't and was breaking the law) and this is a ring fenced additional fund that provides a very small item of support. If it wasn't there the aspects covered would either be easily funded or easily stopped. On your first point given only around 800, out of 1300 members vote each time, and with some votes going to community groups, and on others the vote being split perhaps 55-45 then the evidence suggests the majority of paying members have not demonstrated they are happy for the money to go to any proposal! That favt is very simple to grasp. your mention of my second point... well my point there was again simple. The fans of the new club down the road just kept, and keep ploughing funds into that club regardless of which shyster is flee ing them on any given day, then stand back astounded that for some strange reason aw the money has gone again!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said: If the year to February last year didn't see membership dwindling then nothing will. That was as bad as it's been in a long, long, time On the contrary that was start up year, brave new world, buddies getting behind a cause to BTB. But you are right to draw attention to that period, and the one we are in now! Those/these joyous times are when we should be seeing numbers, engagement, involvement grow.... sad to say if you can get an current membership figure from smisa it probably shows the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, bazil85 said: I'm assuming those ideas have been presented and rejected then based on your response? Too be honest I agree with them and think they'd be appropriate. Would I vote for it over the analyst and sports scientist? Not a chance and I feel the majority would likely feel the same based on this season. Oh you like a split hair.... there are as any Smisa member knows..! A number of voting options on each ballot that eliminates the 'either, or' scenario you wrongly reference and feel you speak for "The Majority" on, above. You seem to not know the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 24 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: Whatever the current level of membership Smisa needs to re-chart its course. Theres a long, long way to go before smisa members take over the majority shareholding in the club, and buds that have followed the saints for more than a season or two know for every high we have savoured, we seemed to spend five or more years enduring lows. this isnt Smisa committee bashing, this is a clear belief and understanding gained from years of similar experience, that is if you fail to fully and effectively engage, represent and involve your stakeholders (smisa members etc) then interest and commitment will fall away. Take a scenario most of us have witnessed, a fantastic promotion winning season, followed by automatic relegation and dire, dull ugly football that almost leads to oblivion for the club. imagine the potential impact that may have on membership, and the financial position of the club! The current model and set up might not be able to deliver or sustain smisa's fan ownership goals.... what then? if you want a seemingly small, but telling example of Smisa simply not being proactive in engaging with the members then the fact the committee have in place an agreed position of not participating/boycotting any comment on this forum should set off alarm bells. Yes ffs the one fans forum with a decent/regular audience is being shunned. Main reason for that is simply you..! Are too real for them to handle. the lack of foresight in proactively engaging with the members, and working with them to build and improve Smisa is the main reason i stopped working with them. Still a member, and barring catastrophe, always will be. But in the words of Hugh Cornwell "something better change" All very doom and gloom Pityme. As someone already stated if last season doesn't have a great impact on member numbers I doubt anything major enough is going to happen in the next eight years to detriment this plan. Every month that passes with 1,250/ 1,300 members (a number of which paying £25) we move even closer to being completely fan owned. We also move further ahead of schedule with numbers being over target. The main point to note is yourself and a few others excluded, the vast majority of people are perfectly happy with this set-up. You say often that things have to change but I would say it's been pretty well established that you can't get your head round the fact you're in the minority that are against the position we're currently in. I fully appreciate the point that all ideas and plans should be considered and costed. But again, common sense approach if they're not going to be close to as popular as plans already in the pipeline... Should we be spending too much time on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Lord Pityme said: Oh you like a split hair.... there are as any Smisa member knows..! A number of voting options on each ballot that eliminates the 'either, or' scenario you wrongly reference and feel you speak for "The Majority" on, above. You seem to not know the process? All evidence points to majority of members are happier with SMFC benefit proposals. It all points towards fans being relatively happy with how things are going. Can see that in small drop off numbers and limited feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, bazil85 said: All very doom and gloom Pityme. As someone already stated if last season doesn't have a great impact on member numbers I doubt anything major enough is going to happen in the next eight years to detriment this plan. Every month that passes with 1,250/ 1,300 members (a number of which paying £25) we move even closer to being completely fan owned. We also move further ahead of schedule with numbers being over target. The main point to note is yourself and a few others excluded, the vast majority of people are perfectly happy with this set-up. You say often that things have to change but I would say it's been pretty well established that you can't get your head round the fact you're in the minority that are against the position we're currently in. I fully appreciate the point that all ideas and plans should be considered and costed. But again, common sense approach if they're not going to be close to as popular as plans already in the pipeline... Should we be spending too much time on them? Ah... I see you have canvassed "The Vast Majority" again to back up your opinions. You have asked all the people you say you have..? Havent you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, bazil85 said: All evidence points to majority of members are happier with SMFC benefit proposals. It all points towards fans being relatively happy with how things are going. Can see that in small drop off numbers and limited feedback. Sorry.... what evidence? On most votes less than half the membership are casting a vote in favour of any option. Now if you were responsible for membership engagement, recruitment and stability, and you know almost half of them aren't voting..! You should be very concerned as to how that may manifest itself in membership turnover/drop off. if you are only engaging with half of them... guess what the other half may decide, or just let happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, Lord Pityme said: Ah... I see you have canvassed "The Vast Majority" again to back up your opinions. You have asked all the people you say you have..? Havent you? As I've stated on several occasions, evidence would suggest the majority are happy. There's certainly nothing that suggests most people don't like what's currently happening. 95% of members that chose to vote, voted in favour of the suggestion that literally wrote the club a cheque. 80% a donation to the woman's team and 72% for a entertainment that we can only speculate will be a benefit. Now I know that is not clear cut 100% the majority are happy but in the same way as it's pretty bloody obvious fans are against Colt teams, I'd say it's pretty bloody obvious St Mirren fans are happy when proposals benefit St Mirren football club. Would love to know what goes on in your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, Lord Pityme said: Sorry.... what evidence? On most votes less than half the membership are casting a vote in favour of any option. Now if you were responsible for membership engagement, recruitment and stability, and you know almost half of them aren't voting..! You should be very concerned as to how that may manifest itself in membership turnover/drop off. if you are only engaging with half of them... guess what the other half may decide, or just let happen? Again you have zero evidence these fans are not happy in the same way I don't know for sure they are. Educated guess would say since they aren't speaking out, aren't cancelling their membership and not using their vote to annotate negativity to the voting options... They're more than likely pretty content You realise how it sounds when you suggests there are a majority of fans that aren't happy at the discretionary fund benefits SMFC right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, bazil85 said: As I've stated on several occasions, evidence would suggest the majority are happy. There's certainly nothing that suggests most people don't like what's currently happening. 95% of members that chose to vote, voted in favour of the suggestion that literally wrote the club a cheque. 80% a donation to the woman's team and 72% for a entertainment that we can only speculate will be a benefit. Now I know that is not clear cut 100% the majority are happy but in the same way as it's pretty bloody obvious fans are against Colt teams, I'd say it's pretty bloody obvious St Mirren fans are happy when proposals benefit St Mirren football club. Would love to know what goes on in your head. I get you dont want to acknowledge that with little over half the membership voting, there is no evidence to suggest what the majority are happy with. And the reference to colt teams..? Sorry whooosh on my behalf. if a members idea like installing the tv screens streaming saints tv, buddievision and live football. Improves the matchday experience for fans, why is it hard to understand that that also greatly benefits the club..? i dont think any members are against the club benefitting from the £2 pot, and I dont think anyone is suggesting that the club shouldn't. What is being discussed is the fact that the options for members to vote on are only coming from the club (sometimes just to pay a regular bill) or the Smisa committee. And in the long run without effective, proactive engagement and involvement of the membership in determining where the funds are allocated smisa run the real risk of members just letting it go, drifting away, leaving it to someone else.... That lethargy has been the death knell of so many similar organisations, all you hear is "well thats just the way of it" we cant afford to let that creeping grip of doom become the vision for smisa. No sports scientist in the world will be able to do a 'magic sponge' on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, bazil85 said: Again you have zero evidence these fans are not happy in the same way I don't know for sure they are. Educated guess would say since they aren't speaking out, aren't cancelling their membership and not using their vote to annotate negativity to the voting options... They're more than likely pretty content You realise how it sounds when you suggests there are a majority of fans that aren't happy at the discretionary fund benefits SMFC right? Are you actually reading my posts? I have clearly said that there is no evidence the majority are happy with any proposal as the majority arent making their thoughts known. So no one knows if they are happy, or not. you cant make an educated guess on, your guess..! Its just a 'guess' in that instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: I get you dont want to acknowledge that with little over half the membership voting, there is no evidence to suggest what the majority are happy with. And the reference to colt teams..? Sorry whooosh on my behalf. if a members idea like installing the tv screens streaming saints tv, buddievision and live football. Improves the matchday experience for fans, why is it hard to understand that that also greatly benefits the club..? i dont think any members are against the club benefitting from the £2 pot, and I dont think anyone is suggesting that the club shouldn't. What is being discussed is the fact that the options for members to vote on are only coming from the club (sometimes just to pay a regular bill) or the Smisa committee. And in the long run without effective, proactive engagement and involvement of the membership in determining where the funds are allocated smisa run the real risk of members just letting it go, drifting away, leaving it to someone else.... That lethargy has been the death knell of so many similar organisations, all you hear is "well thats just the way of it" we cant afford to let that creeping grip of doom become the vision for smisa. No sports scientist in the world will be able to do a 'magic sponge' on that. Do you genuinely believe there is no evidence that the majority are happy? Like actually sticking to that there is ZERO evidence at all to confirm that? The Colt team reference was people on here arguing that we don't know if fans would be happy to have Colt teams in the league because there hasn't been official fan engagement. I was using it as an example of a common sense approach which you seem not willing/ able to grasp. Your second sentence, I would completely agree with you. Again would I vote for it over giving the required money to my football club? Probably not. Evidence as I quoted in the recent votes would suggest there's a big pool of paying members of that opinion also. Maybe not/ maybe so. I'm going purely on the evidence we do have. Your third paragraph relies very heavily on your point that members aren't happy which we've established in no fact. Your fourth paragraph. Name one organisation that's been in a similar position (two years through a 10 year plan, way ahead of schedule, no clear evidence that a big member drop-off is going to happen) has ended up failing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bazil85 said: Do you genuinely believe there is no evidence that the majority are happy? Like actually sticking to that there is ZERO evidence at all to confirm that? The Colt team reference was people on here arguing that we don't know if fans would be happy to have Colt teams in the league because there hasn't been official fan engagement. I was using it as an example of a common sense approach which you seem not willing/ able to grasp. Your second sentence, I would completely agree with you. Again would I vote for it over giving the required money to my football club? Probably not. Evidence as I quoted in the recent votes would suggest there's a big pool of paying members of that opinion also. Maybe not/ maybe so. I'm going purely on the evidence we do have. Your third paragraph relies very heavily on your point that members aren't happy which we've established in no fact. Your fourth paragraph. Name one organisation that's been in a similar position (two years through a 10 year plan, way ahead of schedule, no clear evidence that a big member drop-off is going to happen) has ended up failing? You're losing me mainly by repeating you would vote for anything where the money went to the club. Fine thats your prerogative. But we aren't discussing that. We are discussing why only the club or committee members ideas get to a vote. And that is surely a bad thing as regards keeping all members whatever their voting intentions are, engaged in the medium to long term. On another point, why do you think Smisa is way ahead of schedule..? What are you measuring that against..? Edited January 30, 2018 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: You're losing me mainly by repeating you would vote for anything where the money went to the club. Fine thats your prerogative. But we aren't discussing that. We are discussing why only the club or committee members ideas get to a vote. And that is surely a bad thing as regards keeping all members whatever their voting intentions are, engaged in the medium to long term. On another point, why do you think Smisa is way ahead of schedule..? What are you measuring that against..? Where's your evidence that no members ideas have been taken on? Last vote there was a boys club idea the club were directly against, the entertainment one could also of been members? SMISA have consistently said the plan was on 1,000 members paying £12 a month. They had also noted that they had factored in for a drop off in members (under 1,000) over the term of the buyout. If our member numbers are still around about 1,250/ 1,300 a month (which I'm led to believe they are) with a small percentage of them paying £25 surely that's still ahead of schedule? That also doesn't take into account the £2,500 up front packages which sold out. Purchase price is £1 million. Working out calculations of 1,250 fans paying £12 a month. that's £1.8 million ovr the 10 year plan. Nice wee margin for error I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Even at the rate of £10 per month per member which is going towards the purchase there is still a large margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, bazil85 said: I'm assuming those ideas have been presented and rejected then based on your response? Too be honest I agree with them and think they'd be appropriate. Would I vote for it over the analyst and sports scientist? Not a chance and I feel the majority would likely feel the same based on this season. Again you jump into the conclusion pool ? I'm starting to guess who you used to post under. Have never put forward any propsals not a signal one I'm only pointing out we could save up some money for a fans day out experience to the football. Anyway who are you to pull down any proposal put forward if you don't like it don't vote for it it's really quite simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 43 minutes ago, smcc said: Even at the rate of £10 per month per member which is going towards the purchase there is still a large margin. As in a large margin in favor or against the buyout? 31 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said: Again you jump into the conclusion pool ? I'm starting to guess who you used to post under. Have never put forward any propsals not a signal one I'm only pointing out we could save up some money for a fans day out experience to the football. Anyway who are you to pull down any proposal put forward if you don't like it don't vote for it it's really quite simple. I assure you I have never posted under any other name apart from Bazil85 but I'd love to know who you think I used to post under. I'm jumping to conclusions? Can you see how your second paragraph is completely hypocritical? Yet again I'll say it, common sense approach suggests that the majority of fans involved in the buyout are happy. If you want 100% stone cold unwavering evidence of this it's not available but if you feel that is the only conditions where you can make a point then I suggest you stop posting that fans are unhappy because you are self defeating your own argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, bazil85 said: As in a large margin in favor or against the buyout? I assure you I have never posted under any other name apart from Bazil85 but I'd love to know who you think I used to post under. I'm jumping to conclusions? Can you see how your second paragraph is completely hypocritical? Yet again I'll say it, common sense approach suggests that the majority of fans involved in the buyout are happy. If you want 100% stone cold unwavering evidence of this it's not available but if you feel that is the only conditions where you can make a point then I suggest you stop posting that fans are unhappy because you are self defeating your own argument. Your really quite funny doing all the thinking for everyone else. Where did say I was not happy honestly I'm more happy than I have been in a long time , times like these don't come along often so i'm grabbing it with both hands. Will I write to SMISA and complain = No Have I voted in every spend = Yes. Came onto the SMISA forum to put over my thoughts I go along with the majority and will not spit the dummy out. Anyway I don't own a soapbox which to stand on I'm just your next fan in the coffee queue muttering away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said: Your really quite funny doing all the thinking for everyone else. Where did say I was not happy honestly I'm more happy than I have been in a long time , times like these don't come along often so i'm grabbing it with both hands. Will I write to SMISA and complain = No Have I voted in every spend = Yes. Came onto the SMISA forum to put over my thoughts I go along with the majority and will not spit the dummy out. Anyway I don't own a soapbox which to stand on I'm just your next fan in the coffee queue muttering away. You clearly can't grasp someone looking at a situation and making an informed choice can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, bazil85 said: You clearly can't grasp someone looking at a situation and making an informed choice can you? Yes I can hence the vote every month. Debating is another subject so I'm out having put my idea on the table. Have a nice day fellow Bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, bazil85 said: Where's your evidence that no members ideas have been taken on? Last vote there was a boys club idea the club were directly against, the entertainment one could also of been members? SMISA have consistently said the plan was on 1,000 members paying £12 a month. They had also noted that they had factored in for a drop off in members (under 1,000) over the term of the buyout. If our member numbers are still around about 1,250/ 1,300 a month (which I'm led to believe they are) with a small percentage of them paying £25 surely that's still ahead of schedule? That also doesn't take into account the £2,500 up front packages which sold out. Purchase price is £1 million. Working out calculations of 1,250 fans paying £12 a month. that's £1.8 million ovr the 10 year plan. Nice wee margin for error I'd say. The entertainment option came from the SLO's ( AKA the club/smisa). The Glenvale option came from Smisa. i am sure there will be a set of accounts made available for the Smisa AGM. Then anyone can digest and enquire on updated projections. I am gonna leave you to argue with yourselves now Baz, have a good one it will soon be ope top bus time again. Edited January 30, 2018 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 It's healthy to have debates which are open to others. It would help however to answer questions seeking facts. How many paying members are there? How much do these contribute monthly? Any chance someone can give a definitive answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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