Guest Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 On 7/26/2022 at 8:10 PM, FTOF said: Might the fact that we're currently paying off an interest free government covid loan of £1.7 million, over 20 years, be contributing to the financial "debt" rumours? Covid in Scotland: Director pay and bonus rules for SPFL clubs' loan - BBC News The covid loan was included in last years accounts year ended 31st May 2021. This is clearly documented in the last years accounts. St Mirren received £1,764,000. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55850272 The club accounts for year end 31st May can be found here https://www.stmirren.com/all-news/4440-st-mirren-football-club-ltd-the-annual-report-and-financial-statements The SMiSA report back to the membership who are not allowed to attend the formal club AGM held on Sunday 27th January is here https://www.smisa.net/news-archive/5-general-smisa-news/322-st-mirren-agm-2022-report John Needham responded to a number of concerned shareholders who had submitted questions in advance of the AGM held over Zoom specifically to this loan, how it is absorbed into the accounts and the payback over 20year interest free. He said “Q1 Loss of £49K but profit of £449K. JN explained that the confusion was due to the way the Scottish Government loan had been included. The actual cash loss was £45K, depreciation £263K (£303K) but an investment gain of £33K had reduced figure to £275K. Grant conversion £1.7M present day discounted by 20 years value £729K Agreed not very transparent but presented as required to meet accounting regulations. Q2 Note 4 - £920K grants- again related back to £729K plus £170K in furlough payments plus £22K in miscellaneous grants.” It’s clear that the covid loan has already been reported in last years accounting period. Therefore why did we not say we had a seven figure loss last year? What’s changed? I’m told that John Needham at a recent SMiSA meeting when pressed by the membership in attendance that the club was “forecasting a seven figure loss”. I’m been made aware that he and the other club directors did not know this figure at the meeting. So as I’ve said before….. A seven figure loss could be a) anything less than or equal to £99,999.99 or b) anything greater than or equal to £1,000,000 Whenever I’ve worked on large business transactions imvolving global corporate giants such as IT outsourcing companies, IT hardware & Software vendors, investment banks, MoD, DWP etc with huge turnovers far in excess of St Mirren’s £4.5M annual turnover I’ve never included anything from £0.00 to £0.99 in my business case. Obviously when my purchases order or sales deals hit the financial bean counters in the purchasing or procurement department the two digits to the right of the decimal point are included in the financial systems to notify the banks to perform the inter bank transaction accurately. In the UK that is performed using BACS. International transfers are more complex but a similar process. However you need to take into consideration the currency conversion and other transactional fees incurred. Anyway I digressed just so I can get my word count up to annoy @faraway saint So let’s hope the seven figure loss allegedly forecast by our club chair at the most recent SMiSA meeting is less than £100,000. Nothing was formally documented by SMiSA https://www.smisa.net/news-archive/5-general-smisa-news/332-smisa-members-quarterly-meeting via this correspondence on the website (26th August)!and to SMiSA membership by email (27th July 2022). It took 5 days to produce those minutes. I wonder why it took so long? To avoid any Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD for @bazil85 benefit) the next SMiSA meeting should be “live streamed” via Zoom to the paying SMiSA membership given there were only 22 members in attendance that night? Surely the SMiSA membership who own 51% of the club deserve a better option to question the Club and SMiSA elected representatives? Zoom was successfully used at this years club AGM in January 2022 discussing financial year end 31st May 2021. So surely with the SMiSA procured membership software there is an easy way to invite people through the managed database software to join a zoom call if the member can’t attend in person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 ^^^^^^ My head hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 9 hours ago, faraway saint said: ^^^^^^ My head hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 1 minute ago, SuperSaints1877 said: Go away ya creepy b'strd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) On 8/21/2022 at 9:51 AM, fan4ever said: What i say below is for most players and i fully agree there will be some who enter via a different route. I prefer the model that the usa has for american football. In high school you have too maintain a C average on your report card to be on any school team this includes such clubs as cheerleading, basketball being in the school band. If you drop below a C you cannot participate till the next report card which are every 9 weeks or 45 days. You are deemed to be not focused on school work so why should you be privelged to be on the team. After high school you go to college/uni because you have studied and most who are good enough will get a scholarship or if not good enough you at least have an education to take you forward. In college the model remains thats why most professional americam football players have some form of professional qualifications. At the age if 22/23 and after playing college ball only then do you go to play fully professional and get the big money. A players career can be over anytime and they cannot all be pundits. I think that at age 22/23 you are more mature to handle fame, the ridiculous amount of money that is given to them. I am not saying all in uk should go to uni but every player should have something to fall back on. The American model sucks, you need to amass far more debt in education than you would here WITHOUT the sports scholarship. It is designed to keep the money where it already is. The sports teams are really just bait and there are a fair few on the teams who do not deserve to be there, privilege and position gets them on the team so that they show up well when they eventually go to work. I have had so many american colleagues over the years who simply couldnt afford to pay for college never mind uni for their kids. I have some just now who are in their 70s and can't retire because they are still paying their now mid 30s children's college debt debt and also cant face life without company healthcare There is not much the yanks can teach us when it comes to education (sic) Edited September 4, 2022 by beyond our ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portmahomack saint Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 On 9/3/2022 at 5:47 AM, SuperSaints1877 said: The covid loan was included in last years accounts year ended 31st May 2021. This is clearly documented in the last years accounts. St Mirren received £1,764,000. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55850272 The club accounts for year end 31st May can be found here https://www.stmirren.com/all-news/4440-st-mirren-football-club-ltd-the-annual-report-and-financial-statements The SMiSA report back to the membership who are not allowed to attend the formal club AGM held on Sunday 27th January is here https://www.smisa.net/news-archive/5-general-smisa-news/322-st-mirren-agm-2022-report John Needham responded to a number of concerned shareholders who had submitted questions in advance of the AGM held over Zoom specifically to this loan, how it is absorbed into the accounts and the payback over 20year interest free. He said “Q1 Loss of £49K but profit of £449K. JN explained that the confusion was due to the way the Scottish Government loan had been included. The actual cash loss was £45K, depreciation £263K (£303K) but an investment gain of £33K had reduced figure to £275K. Grant conversion £1.7M present day discounted by 20 years value £729K Agreed not very transparent but presented as required to meet accounting regulations. Q2 Note 4 - £920K grants- again related back to £729K plus £170K in furlough payments plus £22K in miscellaneous grants.” It’s clear that the covid loan has already been reported in last years accounting period. Therefore why did we not say we had a seven figure loss last year? What’s changed? I’m told that John Needham at a recent SMiSA meeting when pressed by the membership in attendance that the club was “forecasting a seven figure loss”. I’m been made aware that he and the other club directors did not know this figure at the meeting. So as I’ve said before….. A seven figure loss could be a) anything less than or equal to £99,999.99 or b) anything greater than or equal to £1,000,000 Whenever I’ve worked on large business transactions imvolving global corporate giants such as IT outsourcing companies, IT hardware & Software vendors, investment banks, MoD, DWP etc with huge turnovers far in excess of St Mirren’s £4.5M annual turnover I’ve never included anything from £0.00 to £0.99 in my business case. Obviously when my purchases order or sales deals hit the financial bean counters in the purchasing or procurement department the two digits to the right of the decimal point are included in the financial systems to notify the banks to perform the inter bank transaction accurately. In the UK that is performed using BACS. International transfers are more complex but a similar process. However you need to take into consideration the currency conversion and other transactional fees incurred. Anyway I digressed just so I can get my word count up to annoy @faraway saint So let’s hope the seven figure loss allegedly forecast by our club chair at the most recent SMiSA meeting is less than £100,000. Nothing was formally documented by SMiSA https://www.smisa.net/news-archive/5-general-smisa-news/332-smisa-members-quarterly-meeting via this correspondence on the website (26th August)!and to SMiSA membership by email (27th July 2022). It took 5 days to produce those minutes. I wonder why it took so long? To avoid any Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD for @bazil85 benefit) the next SMiSA meeting should be “live streamed” via Zoom to the paying SMiSA membership given there were only 22 members in attendance that night? Surely the SMiSA membership who own 51% of the club deserve a better option to question the Club and SMiSA elected representatives? Zoom was successfully used at this years club AGM in January 2022 discussing financial year end 31st May 2021. So surely with the SMiSA procured membership software there is an easy way to invite people through the managed database software to join a zoom call if the member can’t attend in person? Cut through the chase what does all that mean for the man in the west stand... ME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, portmahomack saint said: Cut through the chase what does all that mean for the man in the west stand... ME a more appropriate question would be "how can a 7 figure amount be less that a 6 figure amount?" Edited September 4, 2022 by beyond our ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 1 hour ago, portmahomack saint said: Cut through the chase what does all that mean for the man in the west stand... ME Sources stated John Needham said the club is forecasting a £1M+ loss in the accounts year ending 31st March 2022. Need to wait until accounts are published later this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBud Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 1 hour ago, SuperSaints1877 said: Sources stated John Needham said the club is forecasting a £1M+ loss in the accounts year ending 31st March 2022. Need to wait until accounts are published later this year. Sources🤷♂️🤷♂️…..are we talking about Animal here?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 4, 2022 Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, WeeBud said: Sources🤷♂️🤷♂️…..are we talking about Animal here?? Or the mate in the pub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldorf34 Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 13 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said: Sources stated John Needham said the club is forecasting a £1M+ loss in the accounts year ending 31st March 2022. Need to wait until accounts are published later this year. The loan we got from the government is a long term liability ,not sure in accounts if it's a loss ,maybe taking the hit in one year ,to save tax on the loan being classed as income? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted September 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/5/2022 at 11:38 AM, waldorf34 said: The loan we got from the government is a long term liability ,not sure in accounts if it's a loss ,maybe taking the hit in one year ,to save tax on the loan being classed as income? It's a big hit in any sense if the £1.7 million has all been spent in the past two covid years - regardless of tax etc. . It will have to be paid back at presumably £85.000 a year. The real problem is If it has all gone and the club is running on its current account income alone. This could well be a problem. Almost all season ticket money already in. One home game in September (Celtic with one stand). A fairly large squad - some spending a lot of time on the bench. Increasing costs for heating and electric etc. Pay at the gate numbers reduced by rising cost of living for supporters. Worrying times ahead. Not looking forward to seeing the figures at the AGM. Need to see the up to date managment accounts not just the usual financial accounts for the year ending months ago. How much cash is actually in the bank account to pay the bills should be the real question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted September 6, 2022 Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 42 minutes ago, animal said: It's a big hit in any sense if the £1.7 million has all been spent in the past two covid years - regardless of tax etc. . It will have to be paid back at presumably £85.000 a year. The real problem is If it has all gone and the club is running on its current account income alone. This could well be a problem. Almost all season ticket money already in. One home game in September (Celtic with one stand). A fairly large squad - some spending a lot of time on the bench. Increasing costs for heating and electric etc. Pay at the gate numbers reduced by rising cost of living for supporters. Worrying times ahead. Not looking forward to seeing the figures at the AGM. Need to see the up to date managment accounts not just the usual financial accounts for the year ending months ago. How much cash is actually in the bank account to pay the bills should be the real question. Cash in bank/ on hand was around £2.7 million in the last accounts. We also have additional emergency income streams through SMISA should things get really bad. (Which I doubt it will) Covid & cost of living will hurt all clubs, I would say the evidence puts us in a stronger position than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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