The AGM controversy

[Brilliant Disguise]

3 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Project 

And as one of the project management team on some of the biggest infrastructure & utilities projects ever undertaken in the UK, as well as one in France and 2 in Germany, I know what i am talking about and who is talking sense or bullshit. 

Likewise

I have project management skills on the building of 2 new ferries, now they are near completion i was looking after the Duelling of the A9, and are also managing the introduction of the DRS scheme. All thanks to my Project Management YTS at the Kibble

[Brilliant Disguise]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Project management absolutely has transferable skill. If you disagree with that, I don’t for a second believe you’ve worked anywhere near it. 
 

To think a small project at a Scottish premier club training facility would need a very specific & specialist project management is utterly redundant. 🤦‍♂️

The point is that the Wendy house did not need any project management input from the Clients side. It needed an informed Client, lead consultant and a competent contractor. 

[bazil85]

Just now, Brilliant Disguise said:

The point is that the Wendy house did not need any project management input from the Clients side. It needed an informed Client, lead consultant and a competent contractor. 

It’s baffling, you just don’t learn do you? 
You don’t know what it did or did not need/ have. 

[Brilliant Disguise]

24 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

It’s baffling, you just don’t learn do you? 
You don’t know what it did or did not need/ have. 

I know that a £80k dogs kennel does not need a Project Manager especially when you have JAM Architects onboard. AND a competent contractor. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Brilliant Disguise

[Albanian Buddy]

37 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

To think a small project at a Scottish premier club training facility would need a very specific & specialist project management is utterly redundant. 🤦‍♂️

A small project that accounted for 10% of the club turnover? 

The training ground is used every single day. It is a key operational resource.

On here I’d hazard a guess that no one actually has any idea who was ultimately responsible for the “project management”.

It could have been any number of parties:

Kibble / Club / The contractor(s)

Whoever was involved it was clearly a cluster fcuk resulting in significant overspend and massive delays where the players could not fully use the academy for around two years.

Significant failings should not have occurred with “high quality governance and experienced project management”. 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Albanian Buddy

[Albanian Buddy]

34 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

You don’t know what it did or did not need/ have. 

So you tell us what did happen then?

[Albanian Buddy]

40 minutes ago, Brilliant Disguise said:

Duelling of the A9

Could we have a showdown between you and basil to settle this matter?

[bazil85]

5 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

A small project that accounted for 10% of the club turnover? 

The training ground is used every single day. It is a key operational resource.

On here I’d hazard a guess that no one actually has any idea who was ultimately responsible for the “project management”.

It could have been any number of parties:

Kibble / Club / The contractor(s)

Whoever was involved it was clearly a cluster fcuk resulting in significant overspend and massive delays where the players could not fully use the academy for around two years.

Significant failings should not have occurred with “high quality governance and experienced project management”. 

 

In comparative terms for project management, I don’t see how it could be considered very big. £400k hardly buys you a decent house in a good area nowadays. 
 

I’m not saying it wasn’t a big project relative to St Mirren as a club. 

[bazil85]

5 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

So you tell us what did happen then?

See above ^^^ I have never claimed to be in the know. I’m only calling out baseless claims & moon howling negativity. 
 

I mean look at the extent some are going to without a shred of knowledge. We didn’t need management for a £400k club project now. 😂

[bazil85]

 rent free 😂😂

[beyond our ken]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Project management absolutely has transferable skill. If you disagree with that, I don’t for a second believe you’ve worked anywhere near it. 
 

To think a small project at a Scottish premier club training facility would need a very specific & specialist project management is utterly redundant. 🤦‍♂️

Point 1, there are several other contributors to this forum who know what i do for a living and where i work

Point 2 , even building a small extension to a house is best managed by a project manager

[bazil85]

3 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Point 1, there are several other contributors to this forum who know what i do for a living and where i work

Point 2 , even building a small extension to a house is best managed by a project manager

Seems like we are in a degree of agreement then, why so argumentative? Your pal doesn’t think Ralston needed project managed. 🤷‍♂️

[Albanian Buddy]

33 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

In comparative terms for project management, I don’t see how it could be considered very big. £400k hardly buys you a decent house in a good area nowadays. 

Well it seems that the deal promised with Kibble was to bring on board all manner of professional expertise and experience to all aspects of managing  the club where we did not have the resource or expertise.
You can’t have it both ways. You have argued this point for years.

[hamlet]

55 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

 I don’t see how it could be considered very big. £400k hardly buys you a decent house in a good area nowadays. 
 

Dear dear a poor show. Will your neighbours agree

[bazil85]

33 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

Well it seems that the deal promised with Kibble was to bring on board all manner of professional expertise and experience to all aspects of managing  the club where we did not have the resource or expertise.
You can’t have it both ways. You have argued this point for years.

My view is completely consistent. The Kibble bringing in expertise & benefiting the club with their contacts & people under their care, does not mean they can make major work at the training ground vanish or much cheaper than it need be. 
 

We have brought on a charity organisation, not bloody Hogwarts. 

[hamlet]

1 hour ago, Albanian Buddy said:

A small project that accounted for 10% of the club turnover? 

The training ground is used every single day. It is a key operational resource.

On here I’d hazard a guess that no one actually has any idea who was ultimately responsible for the “project management”.

It could have been any number of parties:

Kibble / Club / The contractor(s)

Whoever was involved it was clearly a cluster fcuk resulting in significant overspend and massive delays where the players could not fully use the academy for around two years.

Significant failings should not have occurred with “high quality governance and experienced project management”. 

 

Cards on the table, my knowledge of Kibble was walking past on my way to the racecourse many years ago. 

Surely the blame is being diverted from the real culprits. It is the Board of Directors of SMFC who should be lambasted. As previously mentioned the response at the AGM from probably the only person on the board with the building knowledge replied to the question of his involvement "I was not asked" he didn't need to be asked, he was in a position of responsibility to ensure that decisions in the interest of the club were approved. It gets worse, the follow up question asked "who was in charge" . After a pregnant pause our Chairman replied "Tony" followed by a follow up question who was in charge of Tony. Not once did our Chairman accept responsibility for this or our huge financial loss. At the end of the day our Chairman carries the can and should have resigned due to his incompetence and taken some of the others with him. 

[faraway saint]

2 minutes ago, hamlet said:

Cards on the table, my knowledge of Kibble was walking past on my way to the racecourse many years ago. 

Surely the blame is being diverted from the real culprits. It is the Board of Directors of SMFC who should be lambasted. As previously mentioned the response at the AGM from probably the only person on the board with the building knowledge replied to the question of his involvement "I was not asked" he didn't need to be asked, he was in a position of responsibility to ensure that decisions in the interest of the club were approved. It gets worse, the follow up question asked "who was in charge" . After a pregnant pause our Chairman replied "Tony" followed by a follow up question who was in charge of Tony. Not once did our Chairman accept responsibility for this or our huge financial loss. At the end of the day our Chairman carries the can and should have resigned due to his incompetence and taken some of the others with him. 

While, overall, I agree with most of your post it has to be said that whoever put Tony in a position he was ckearly unsuitable for deserves to leave the club and never return. 

At least any decision Tony made should have been checked before going ahead.

[Slarti]

Not only are your knickers in a twist, you are lashing out at the wrong poster.  I never wrote those things.

Haud oan a wee minute, in that post you quoted did he really say "accept you were wrong to make a claim a fact"? Jesus christ. Pot/kettle anyone.

[bazil85]

6 hours ago, Slarti said:

13 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

Not only are your knickers in a twist, you are lashing out at the wrong poster.  I never wrote those things.

Haud oan a wee minute, in that post you quoted did he really say "accept you were wrong to make a claim a fact"? Jesus christ. Pot/kettle anyone.

There it is, been a while. I was actually thinking he had finally got over this after several years. 😂

[beyond our ken]

18 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Project management absolutely has transferable skill. If you disagree with that, I don’t for a second believe you’ve worked anywhere near it. 
 

To think a small project at a Scottish premier club training facility would need a very specific & specialist project management is utterly redundant. 🤦‍♂️

the fundamentals of project management are BROADLY the same in most areas.  You can become skilled in the process of managing projects but that doesn't necessarily equip you with the specific knowledge needed to deliver a safe and sustainable project in certain areas.  Construction IS a specialist area and since this project necessitated the development of a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and a H&S plan that covered design, construction and commissioning of the site, co-ordination of lifting operations, scaffolding, traffic management, ensuring the competence of those involved, fulfilling the legal requirement to provide operational capability, discharging or making the correct appointments to key legally required roles such as PC, PD and acting as client,  some dismantlement that equates to demolition, the preparatation of a site, the erection of new facilities and their connections to the services, the testing, commissioning and sign-off of these services, safe and ethical disposal of waste as well as obtaining the necessary permits, certificates and changes to deeds and leases then it is clear that someone who is competent in the area of construction is a legally required appointment.  As the HSE says, a construction project is about more than just a site.  a project manager who had never managed or supported a construction project would not be sufficiently qualified under law to assess the risks that the structure introduces during any part of the life-cycle of the building and it would certainly not be in the competence of anyone other than an experienced construction professional to compile, check and hand over to the end user a fully populated health and safety file.

Just as a starter, any twat with  laptop, including me, could have told you that a simple single story structure would have a base cost between £800-£1200 pounds per square metre for permitted development (which the training complex would not have been).  The very idea that someone would quote £80,000 for a project that would have cost a minimum of £120,000 in 2019 prices should have sent the client running for the hills.  The fact that the project cost more than 3 times that suggests to me that this went back to the drawing board and re-started at least once.

[beyond our ken]

11 hours ago, Slarti said:

19 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

Not only are your knickers in a twist, you are lashing out at the wrong poster.  I never wrote those things.

Haud oan a wee minute, in that post you quoted did he really say "accept you were wrong to make a claim a fact"? Jesus christ. Pot/kettle anyone.

He replied to me quoting BD's comments

[beyond our ken]

16 hours ago, faraway saint said:

While, overall, I agree with most of your post it has to be said that whoever put Tony in a position he was ckearly unsuitable for deserves to leave the club and never return. 

At least any decision Tony made should have been checked before going ahead.

Tony was OK  within the original limits of his role and he was never equipped to do the job that Brian Caldwell did.  Collectively, the board should have been offering the support he needed to discharge the role when it came to asset management and development.

[bazil85]

3 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

the fundamentals of project management are BROADLY the same in most areas.  You can become skilled in the process of managing projects but that doesn't necessarily equip you with the specific knowledge needed to deliver a safe and sustainable project in certain areas.  Construction IS a specialist area and since this project necessitated the development of a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and a H&S plan that covered design, construction and commissioning of the site, co-ordination of lifting operations, scaffolding, traffic management, ensuring the competence of those involved, fulfilling the legal requirement to provide operational capability, discharging or making the correct appointments to key legally required roles such as PC, PD and acting as client,  some dismantlement that equates to demolition, the preparatation of a site, the erection of new facilities and their connections to the services, the testing, commissioning and sign-off of these services, safe and ethical disposal of waste as well as obtaining the necessary permits, certificates and changes to deeds and leases then it is clear that someone who is competent in the area of construction is a legally required appointment.  As the HSE says, a construction project is about more than just a site.  a project manager who had never managed or supported a construction project would not be sufficiently qualified under law to assess the risks that the structure introduces during any part of the life-cycle of the building and it would certainly not be in the competence of anyone other than an experienced construction professional to compile, check and hand over to the end user a fully populated health and safety file.

Just as a starter, any twat with  laptop, including me, could have told you that a simple single story structure would have a base cost between £800-£1200 pounds per square metre for permitted development (which the training complex would not have been).  The very idea that someone would quote £80,000 for a project that would have cost a minimum of £120,000 in 2019 prices should have sent the client running for the hills.  The fact that the project cost more than 3 times that suggests to me that this went back to the drawing board and re-started at least once.

Nothing you have said suggests to me the Kibble were not equipped to provide project management for this. People are welcome to assume they were not but that's all it is, an assumption. As for the legal side of things, I have Deja vu about some of the SMISA arguments, remember St Mirren & SMISA were breaking laws with some of our £2 fund spending decisions? Wonder whatever happened to Dicko's whistleblowing attempt. 

Your last paragraph is practically a mirror image of my view. There is no way in a month of Sundays (this is my view, not a statement of fact, just caveating that because similar triggered Slarti for multiple years & he's still not over it... Although that time, he couldn't accept the factual nature of what I said)that the project was just a reflection of what was initially thought and it happened to cost around 5X the price. I feel it is almost certain they had to go "back to the drawing board" and re-evaluate what was actually needed to bring Ralston to an acceptable level. 

[Brilliant Disguise]

2 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

He replied to me quoting BD's comments

He went on a real head banging rant on something that he inferred i claimed..

[Brilliant Disguise]

2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Nothing you have said suggests to me the Kibble were not equipped to provide project management for this. People are welcome to assume they were not but that's all it is, an assumption. As for the legal side of things, I have Deja vu about some of the SMISA arguments, remember St Mirren & SMISA were breaking laws with some of our £2 fund spending decisions? Wonder whatever happened to Dicko's whistleblowing attempt. 

Your last paragraph is practically a mirror image of my view. There is no way in a month of Sundays (this is my view, not a statement of fact, just caveating that because similar triggered Slarti for multiple years & he's still not over it... Although that time, he couldn't accept the factual nature of what I said)that the project was just a reflection of what was initially thought and it happened to cost around 5X the price. I feel it is almost certain they had to go "back to the drawing board" and re-evaluate what was actually needed to bring Ralston to an acceptable level. 

Does Dicko still post on here