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We've dealt with that many pages back. If there was no benefit fraud


And if more time was spent on tax fraud by big business instead of chasing pocket money - and in a wealthy society like ours, the total against alleged benefit fraud is pocket money - how much better off would our society be?

The second of the main points of this debate, which you and oaky keep deflecting away from by going into detail about whether or not you can look after a family on an imagined budget, is that tax avoidance by big business, by business generally, costs us much, much, more.

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9 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Aye, figures that don't add up, that's the winning formula.

:lol:

Honestly I dont know why you dont just show us your own figures and put this debate to bed once and for all.

Thats generally what happens when adults debate.

So far all we have had from your side is personal insults and an apparent unwillingness to understand that when people grow up they leave home and the family shrinks accordingly.

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Its 38p.
If anyone wants to claim that as a victory they are welcome to it.


No, it's 13%, not 38p. As a stringent budgeter and (allegedly) a scientist, you must understand the difference.

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2 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

 


If you were intelligent enough you would have seen I explained that with you writing in the present rather than the past tense.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=have+past+tense&oq=have+past&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.4423j0j4&client=ms-android-motorola&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 emoji14.png

 

Another stunning contribution to the thread. :blink:

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You would be good at getting the milk from the cow............................it's all in the technique. :whistle


He does seem to be trying to get blood from a stone...

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On ‎09‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, faraway saint said:

More "whatabouterry" and deflection.

Here, somebody who's actually done what they can to reduce food bills and the 3 children are all 6 and under.

This was over a year ago.............food prices have gone up since then.

With the demands of running a family of five, finding ways to save money on food was not high on Rachel Mostyn’s to-do list.

Between feeding three hungry little mouths, the school run, household chores and her freelance work, Rachel had enough on her plate.

From an average weekly food and drink spend of £200, which included some eating out, Rachel managed to cut spending by £100 while still eating a healthy balanced diet and plenty of fruit and veg. 

It was a family effort, with the kids – Amelia, six, Leila, five and Joseph, three – all getting stuck in to bake homemade treats that would normally have been bought.

Full story, although I doubt you could  stomach the fact you talk shite.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/eat4cheap/Pages/family-of-five-cut-food-bill-by-half.aspx

 

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Honestly I dont know why you dont just show us your own figures and put this debate to bed once and for all.

Thats generally what happens when adults debate.

So far all we have had from your side is personal insults and an apparent unwillingness to understand that when people grow up they leave home and the family shrinks accordingly.

And from you figures that are so wrong they are hilarious.

See post above, it's a well known tactic from you to try to close a subject down when you've made an arse of yourself, well done, consistent, if nothing else.

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3 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 


And if more time was spent on tax fraud by big business instead of chasing pocket money - and in a wealthy society like ours, the total against alleged benefit fraud is pocket money - how much better off would our society be?

The second of the main points of this debate, which you and oaky keep deflecting away from by going into detail about whether or not you can look after a family on an imagined budget, is that tax avoidance by big business, by business generally, costs us much, much, more.

 

Someone will undoubtedly explain why tax avoidance by big business causes people to forget how to budget for food. 

:lol:

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Just now, faraway saint said:

 

And from you figures that are so wrong they are hilarious.

See post above, it's a well known tactic from you to try to close a subject down when you've made an arse of yourself, well done, consistent, if nothing else.

Work out some detailed figures yourself FFS from your own experience rather than just blindly accepting some one else's.

You lazy bastard  :lol:

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4 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 


No, it's 13%, not 38p. As a stringent budgeter and (allegedly) a scientist, you must understand the difference.

 

If you cant work out that twice £1.69 is 38p more than the £3 that I mentioned then I seriously cant help you.

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6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Honestly I dont know why you dont just show us your own figures and put this debate to bed once and for all.

Thats generally what happens when adults debate.

So far all we have had from your side is personal insults and an apparent unwillingness to understand that when people grow up they leave home and the family shrinks accordingly.

 

Just now, oaksoft said:

Work out some detailed figures yourself FFS from your own experience rather than just blindly accepting some one else's.

You lazy bastard  :lol:

I don't do shopping thanks. :byebye

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If you cant work out that twice £1.69 is 38p more than the £3 that I mentioned then I seriously cant help you.


And if you can't work out out that twice £1.69 is 13% more than £3 (or 12.666% to be more precise, like a scientist would be) then you can't do simple arithmetic. What's your job again?

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11 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 


And if you can't work out out that twice £1.69 is 13% more than £3 (or 12.666% to be more precise, like a scientist would be) then you can't do simple arithmetic. What's your job again?

 

It's quite amusing how he lied about the cost of this item, reducing one item by 13% and totally making up the price of another and expects to be taken seriously. :lol:

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2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Deary me. :lol:

 

In other words you are completely stuck.

God help us if you are at the top of the education chain can only imagine your famous for having your name on the toilet door , capital W attached to the picture of a ships anchor.

read this

Life on a low income means hard choices for many families. Karen and Ben* live with their children aged three and seven. Ben works full time and the family receive tax credits. The couple have a fairly low mortgage, but are constantly struggling to meet household bills, at the same time as paying around a quarter of their income on child maintenance and loan repayments. 

“We really do struggle on a weekly basis to even survive some weeks”, says Karen. “Some weeks, like the last week of every month we are flat broke. We’ll have beans on toast because we’ve spent money on the kids. We got ourselves into a little situation of borrowing all the time because before we got insurance out on the boiler, the boiler was constantly packing up. My husband’s car kept breaking down or the kids needed some new clothes. At the minute my son has clothes that are two or three, and he’s nearly four.”

Many people like Karen and Ben are getting stuck in a situation where they find it hard to keep afloat. Some of these families are dependent on borrowing, and can’t see an immediate way of improving their lives. They spend a lot of time juggling resources, but still end up going without. Factors that make coping on a low income more difficult include higher outgoings on items such as rent or debt. Some have seen things go wrong, in their own lives or others’, and this makes them highly risk averse. This can mean, for example, preferring a prepaid electricity meter, even though it costs more, to the uncertainties associated with facing a large bill or risking direct debit payments that might bounce or wipe out their bank accounts.

For some families, ill health or disability – either among parents or children – is a big factor. Parents’ own physical and mental health can restrict their ability to earn – with some unable to work at all – while others needed more time off than usual. Children’s health impacts on parents’ earning ability, with frequent hospital visits, appointments with professionals or trips to school and school exclusions taking priority. Parents in these circumstances don’t feel they can take on a job given all the extra responsibilities, or have drastically reduced their hours to help cope.

Disabled father with son on a swing in a park

Illness and disability can have a big impact on family income.

Louise and Ian* live with their children, who range from toddler to secondary school age. Ian had to stop work because of his health some years ago, so the family’s only income is from benefits. Louise and Ian’s life revolves around the children.

“If there’s a last bit of food left in the freezer I will go without and let the kids have it”, says Louise. “Any money we've got left over from the food shopping, if they needed anything it goes straight on them.” Louise had recently needed new shoes, but then decided against it when she thought of other expenses coming up. “We had one birthday yesterday and another on Monday so it just got to me then.”

Ian and Louise never go out socially together, as any outings are as a family and for the children. “You can’t really go out [as a couple] and have kids at the same time” says Ian.

For other families in the study, life was getting harder and their finances overwhelming them. Families in these situations risk not being able to afford the basics, such as food. Some have made unsuccessful attempts to make finances add up after a family separation - for example trying to afford mortgage payments on one income. Others are trying to get to grips with accumulated debt, including high-interest sources such as doorstep lenders or instalment buying. Unsecured household debt in the UK is reaching a record high, and more and more people are borrowing just to pay the bills.

Unsurprisingly, the parents in this study are prioritising the basic necessities of life – food, warmth, shelter and good health. Where these basic needs are at risk, parents are taking the strain, sometimes neglecting their own diet or not buying themselves new clothes so that their children have enough. Some families face real material hardship such as inadequately heated or damp homes; others can’t afford to pay for other things like after school activities. Parents are also consistently sacrificing their own social needs: many can’t remember when they last had a night out.

Relationships between partners can be severely tested by the experience of living on a low income. Some parents talk of how money worries are a cause of tension, for example, where couples have different attitudes to money and budgeting, but valued pulling through tough times together. Many spoke of mental health difficulties such as anxiety and depression, which can make it harder to deal with the considerable demands of budgeting on a low income. It can be tough dealing with the demands of budgeting on a low income in such circumstances. And it doesn’t necessarily end there: other evidence shows that children from the poorest families are four times more likely than rich ones to experience several mental health problems growing up.

 

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Re benefit fraud. Most of that money would likely go to people who will waste the cash on drink and cigarettes. As both of them are tax to the hilt, the government will get most of it back plus the profits of the pubs and cigarette company anyway. Whereby the rich who does the tax dodge will not spend the cash and just hide it somewhere on 1 of the virgin islands if it is still there 🙄

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Re benefit fraud. Most of that money would likely go to people who will waste the cash on drink and cigarettes. As both of them are tax to the hilt, the government will get most of it back plus the profits of the pubs and cigarette company anyway. Whereby the rich who does the tax dodge will not spend the cash and just hide it somewhere on 1 of the virgin islands if it is still there 🙄



No such thing as the virgin islands any more, they've been well and truly f**ked.

Too soon? :)

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4 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

In other words you are completely stuck.

God help us if you are at the top of the education chain can only imagine your famous for having your name on the toilet door , capital W attached to the picture of a ships anchor.

read this

Life on a low income means hard choices for many families. Karen and Ben* live with their children aged three and seven. Ben works full time and the family receive tax credits. The couple have a fairly low mortgage, but are constantly struggling to meet household bills, at the same time as paying around a quarter of their income on child maintenance and loan repayments. 

“We really do struggle on a weekly basis to even survive some weeks”, says Karen. “Some weeks, like the last week of every month we are flat broke. We’ll have beans on toast because we’ve spent money on the kids. We got ourselves into a little situation of borrowing all the time because before we got insurance out on the boiler, the boiler was constantly packing up. My husband’s car kept breaking down or the kids needed some new clothes. At the minute my son has clothes that are two or three, and he’s nearly four.”

Many people like Karen and Ben are getting stuck in a situation where they find it hard to keep afloat. Some of these families are dependent on borrowing, and can’t see an immediate way of improving their lives. They spend a lot of time juggling resources, but still end up going without. Factors that make coping on a low income more difficult include higher outgoings on items such as rent or debt. Some have seen things go wrong, in their own lives or others’, and this makes them highly risk averse. This can mean, for example, preferring a prepaid electricity meter, even though it costs more, to the uncertainties associated with facing a large bill or risking direct debit payments that might bounce or wipe out their bank accounts.

For some families, ill health or disability – either among parents or children – is a big factor. Parents’ own physical and mental health can restrict their ability to earn – with some unable to work at all – while others needed more time off than usual. Children’s health impacts on parents’ earning ability, with frequent hospital visits, appointments with professionals or trips to school and school exclusions taking priority. Parents in these circumstances don’t feel they can take on a job given all the extra responsibilities, or have drastically reduced their hours to help cope.

Disabled father with son on a swing in a park

Illness and disability can have a big impact on family income.

Louise and Ian* live with their children, who range from toddler to secondary school age. Ian had to stop work because of his health some years ago, so the family’s only income is from benefits. Louise and Ian’s life revolves around the children.

“If there’s a last bit of food left in the freezer I will go without and let the kids have it”, says Louise. “Any money we've got left over from the food shopping, if they needed anything it goes straight on them.” Louise had recently needed new shoes, but then decided against it when she thought of other expenses coming up. “We had one birthday yesterday and another on Monday so it just got to me then.”

Ian and Louise never go out socially together, as any outings are as a family and for the children. “You can’t really go out [as a couple] and have kids at the same time” says Ian.

For other families in the study, life was getting harder and their finances overwhelming them. Families in these situations risk not being able to afford the basics, such as food. Some have made unsuccessful attempts to make finances add up after a family separation - for example trying to afford mortgage payments on one income. Others are trying to get to grips with accumulated debt, including high-interest sources such as doorstep lenders or instalment buying. Unsecured household debt in the UK is reaching a record high, and more and more people are borrowing just to pay the bills.

Unsurprisingly, the parents in this study are prioritising the basic necessities of life – food, warmth, shelter and good health. Where these basic needs are at risk, parents are taking the strain, sometimes neglecting their own diet or not buying themselves new clothes so that their children have enough. Some families face real material hardship such as inadequately heated or damp homes; others can’t afford to pay for other things like after school activities. Parents are also consistently sacrificing their own social needs: many can’t remember when they last had a night out.

Relationships between partners can be severely tested by the experience of living on a low income. Some parents talk of how money worries are a cause of tension, for example, where couples have different attitudes to money and budgeting, but valued pulling through tough times together. Many spoke of mental health difficulties such as anxiety and depression, which can make it harder to deal with the considerable demands of budgeting on a low income. It can be tough dealing with the demands of budgeting on a low income in such circumstances. And it doesn’t necessarily end there: other evidence shows that children from the poorest families are four times more likely than rich ones to experience several mental health problems growing up.

 

So without any financial analysis of this couple you simply accept their word?

It's people like you I worry about.

You fall for every conspiracy theory and every sob story without feeling the need to go to the bother of checking the details.

You are a scammers dream.

You could disprove the above by simpky telling me the financial details of this family using hard numbers.

I can understand if you cannot do that but what I cant understand is your endless tub thumping when you dont have a clue about why this couple, and those like them, are in trouble.

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So without any financial analysis of this couple you simply accept their word?
It's people like you I worry about.
You fall for every conspiracy theory and every sob story without feeling the need to go to the bother of checking the details.
You are a scammers dream.
You could disprove the above by simpky telling me the financial details of this family using hard numbers.
I can understand if you cannot do that but what I cant understand is your endless tub thumping when you dont have a clue about why this couple, and those like them, are in trouble.


You can't do simple arithmetic, what would you do with hard numbers?

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7 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So without any financial analysis of this couple you simply accept their word?

It's people like you I worry about.

You fall for every conspiracy theory and every sob story without feeling the need to go to the bother of checking the details.

You are a scammers dream.

You could disprove the above by simpky telling me the financial details of this family using hard numbers.

I can understand if you cannot do that but what I cant understand is your endless tub thumping when you dont have a clue about why this couple, and those like them, are in trouble.

Conspiracy theory ? I really dont mind you taking the piss out of me over UFO's I know what i have seen with my own eyes. As i wrote further back close your curtains turn up the heating this time enjoy you spaghetti meatballs smothered in tomato sauce with a glass of red wine. Dont worry outside outside is a land of milk and honey.  :rolleyes:

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8 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So without any financial analysis of this couple you simply accept their word?

It's people like you I worry about.

You fall for every conspiracy theory and every sob story without feeling the need to go to the bother of checking the details.

You are a scammers dream.

You could disprove the above by simpky telling me the financial details of this family using hard numbers.

I can understand if you cannot do that but what I cant understand is your endless tub thumping when you dont have a clue about why this couple, and those like them, are in trouble.

The article says what's wrong with one of their finances. Karen and Ben clearly aren't living with all their children because they are paying out a quarter of their income in loan repayments and child maintenance. They are so poverty ridden they've got a car that needs maintaining. 

I don't have much sympathy with them. Where I do have sympathy with is changing circumstances. Help needs to kick in far more quickly, even for those who don't qualify for benefits. 

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11 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So without any financial analysis of this couple you simply accept their word?

It's people like you I worry about.

You fall for every conspiracy theory and every sob story without feeling the need to go to the bother of checking the details.

You are a scammers dream.

You could disprove the above by simpky telling me the financial details of this family using hard numbers.

I can understand if you cannot do that but what I cant understand is your endless tub thumping when you dont have a clue about why this couple, and those like them, are in trouble.

the problem is, as i suspect you well know but just like an argument, that many of us have either been in this situation or know someone in the same boat.  We don't consider statistics, only the evidence of our eyes and ears which is difficult to quantify in the argument you have tried to forge.  The real question is, is it right that working families have to subsist on this level pretty much forever?

I have several work colleagues and other people close to me who have what are considered good jobs, but because of the difficulty of getting started on a mortgage are fuly extended on that front.  in previous decades, you could do that, reasonably safe in the knowledge that the mortgage would become a shrinking proportion of your outgoings and that the cycles of inflation, interest rates, fuel and energy prices, etc would be the swings and roundabouts of many preceding years.  That just doesnt happen any more.  For those starting out, you have a an existence rather than a life to lead.  And for a large number, it just doesn't get any better, unless some spectacular life event occurs that raises you up.  People have been brought up to believe that if you work hard, behave well and don't give in then it all gets better.  the proportion of the population that can enjoy that is diminishing.  The cream is all being hoovered up and Thatcher's (and others) desired underclass-those who exist only to consume and survive in order to benefit the more privileged- is coming to fruition.

You can budget your way along, but life becomes a grind.  Some respite is needed.  If you work, then you deserve the odd spoonful of cream but the sharp elbowed middle and upper classes are having none of that.  Every advantage in life seems to be sliding inexorably toward their demographic.

To narrowly focus solely on the cost of food in the context of food bank use is just an argumentative trick that, frankly, shows you and bellside up for what you are, attention seekers who feel smug when they push other peoples buttons and who trot out information that suits their agenda, even though they know that it paints only a part of the picture.

There now, you have been indulged.  Respond if you want, I won't be reading anymore argumentative pish from either of you.

Edited by beyond our ken

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