civilsaint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Surly a public forum can have differing views which is the whole point of debate , no. I think Steve has explained my statement pretty accurately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Personally I hope the whole point of the CIC is to better St Mirren Football club on the park. It would be good if this eventually happens - because it is a possibility - but I see the ownership of the club as a seperate issue. This is why it is optional. If youre not really interested in who owns the club and only want to support the team as a form of entertainment then you can. The club will continue to be self financing, with youth being the primary source of improving the team in the long term. As I said elsewhere, the cic is totally different from a sugardaddy coming in and splashing the cash on the team. That would be good in the short term but long term would spell disaster and put the security of the club at risk. The cic is playing the long game, as we have done since gilmour et al tookover, with minimum risk involved. As far as st. Mirren on the park is concerned, it looks to me like business as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 No worries Sid, I'm thinking maybe a good community use of the new members bar would be a boxing night. Top of the bill Slugger Sid v Fightin' Fraz. On the subject of the members (and guests) 'facility'. It needs a name. The CIC have come up with the '87 Club' for a membership scheme. How about organising a competition for fans to submit suggestions to name the new bar? That would be community involvement. Winner gets free corporate hospitality, a wee piece in the match programme... I cannae fight shite - although I would make an exception for Big Fras. Only joking Big Chap. If it raised a bit of cash for the Club then I might give it a go for a laugh - bagsy NSS as my trainer. I was thinking about the naming of the bar and thought it would be fun to take it a step further. As its the supporters club I would go for The Black & White BAR-my. However, there could be elements within it named after famous Saints players: We could have: The Basher Puggy The Quitongo Toilets The MacDougall Pool Table The Kirky Step-over Dance Floor The Ricky Robb Sick Bucket positioned just outside the door for HHiBSS. The Jim Dick Booty Window for mooning at the m*rt*n fans during the Renfrewshire Cup games. Big Marks Yardley of Ale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 If the current board nominate themselves doesn't that defeat the purpose of the sale - the 5 person consortium basically want out in order to freshen things up. I would have nothing against them being consultants during a transition period but they have publically stated they have no more to give. The CIC is not just about selling the club though. It is about completely changing the structure of the club and not only how it is run, but with the added bonus of being able to attract funding from not traditional sources to further develop its offering. Who actually sits in the driving sits is very much open for debate. Speaking for myself I would like to see a wide spread of representation - it is supposed to be about the entire community after all. I think we require experience from the existing BoD and perhaps not just for the transition period. We also need new blood and the commercial and community input is going to be a revelation at the club. With a CIC model the input of people who have been sourcing funding from the type of sources we will be looking at will be invaluable not to mention their fresh ideas for the club. From the supporter side it is going to be interesting, because it will no longer be about the individuals capability to buy shares in the club. For me SMiSA representation on the Board would be great and frankly very well deserved. Whilst I have never been a member I have watched with interest how they have gone about their business - and dressing gowns for players aside - they have been beyond professional, have quietly gone about their business and done good things for the club. People like that, who will not assume to speak for the fans, but who will actually consult and carefully ensure they are acting on the supports wishes would be perfect - for me anyway. I also think that someone from the supporters buses would be good too - not SPS though, he's a nutter and definitely not that Jim Dick alias character, but the North End Bus seem reasonably sane and representative of the support. However, that is entirely for debate and for once we will have a say in the matter of who represents the support, not some self-appointed supporters champion that has bought their way into club decision making. Commercial interests have been allowed to drive the club, in fact not just our club but football in general. With non-commercial people on board with an interest in the community and more importantly football and not just the financial bottom line this could see a massive change for the club. For the first time in eons the word "club" might actually mean something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Surly a public forum can have differing views which is the whole point of debate , no. Fans who are not too sure about the CIC are the ones throwing up the best questions as far as I can read. The only thing I would like to see is an exact break down of all loans and grants. How much has to be paid back , monthly cost and for how long What happens should membership fall short in three years and membership alone has not enough funds raised to pay said loans. Who is responsible. Until the above is answered in a clear and crystal way we will not know at what risk this whole CIC things is.However I am sure this question has been sent hundreds of times by e-mail for an official response. Quite right LS. For me this phase of the process is about teasing out all of the concerns from interested parties. The more questions we have the better as that way we will have more answers. It is a no brainer. It is also great for the CIC porposers too as they will want to ensure they are delivering the right information to us to ensure we get the highest level of support and ultimately membership. Sadly, this phase of the process runs the risk of malcontents posting wild allegations and misinformation. I think all of us can see the genuine questions coming through, but we can also see the agenda driven posts as the questions are accompanied by a lot of shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 In regard to genuine questions, a lot of mine relate to the mechanics of life after any CIC deal goes through. Many aspects of how it will actually work I have no idea about. St Mirren as it presently operates is a relatively small operation. A big part of the CIC plan involves greatly expanding commercial activities at the club, greatly expanding the use of the existing and future facilities. It's OK to sit here and say the church / boys brigade / Muslim carpet bowlers are having meetings, and the corporate suite is in use Mon, Tue, and Wed nights - but who from tbe club stays on to open the place up? Provide security, as in stop folk wandering in uninvited? Man the bar and serve drinks? Provide any services they might need of an AV nature? Provide food? Lock up after them? Do we have the staff, if not, who does it and how much does it cost to host a meeting at the ground, given staff wages, electricity, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Barlow Loyal Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 In regard to genuine questions, a lot of mine relate to the mechanics of life after any CIC deal goes through. Many aspects of how it will actually work I have no idea about. St Mirren as it presently operates is a relatively small operation. A big part of the CIC plan involves greatly expanding commercial activities at the club, greatly expanding the use of the existing and future facilities. It's OK to sit here and say the church / boys brigade / Muslim carpet bowlers are having meetings, and the corporate suite is in use Mon, Tue, and Wed nights - but who from tbe club stays on to open the place up? Provide security, as in stop folk wandering in uninvited? Man the bar and serve drinks? Provide any services they might need of an AV nature? Provide food? Lock up after them? Do we have the staff, if not, who does it and how much does it cost to host a meeting at the ground, given staff wages, electricity, etc. People who buy into the CIC will need to do it or Sid has more than enough Aliases to do all the necessary jobs like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Barlow Loyal Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Quite right LS. For me this phase of the process is about teasing out all of the concerns from interested parties. The more questions we have the better as that way we will have more answers. It is a no brainer. It is also great for the CIC porposers too as they will want to ensure they are delivering the right information to us to ensure we get the highest level of support and ultimately membership. Sadly, this phase of the process runs the risk of malcontents posting wild allegations and misinformation. I think all of us can see the genuine questions coming through, but we can also see the agenda driven posts as the questions are accompanied by a lot of shite. *Cough, cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 People who buy into the CIC will need to do it or Sid has more than enough Aliases to do all the necessary jobs like that. Just the one alias Buddie for years now as the mods can confirm for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 *Cough, cough* You leak one 4pm press conference and your damned forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 People who buy into the CIC will need to do it or Sid has more than enough Aliases to do all the necessary jobs like that. I've sort of mentioned this before, and partly related to what sid has just said...... If any new business is started by the cic, ie, the bar or 7 day use of the conference facilities, is this business the responsibility of the club or the cic? Ie, will it be the cic who'll be managing this new business? Will certain staff - such as someone letting people in and out of the buildings - be expected to be voluntary by members of the cic? Is it planned that, if possible, the cic members contribute not just financially but also contribute their time and skills for free aswell? And if e.g. the bar, begins to make a profit (I would expect that the bar staff would be paid staff) would any profit that is made by new business go to the cic bank accounts or the club bank accounts? Obviously this would matter in terms of paying off any cic debt or going towards team budgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted April 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I've sort of mentioned this before, and partly related to what sid has just said...... If any new business is started by the cic, ie, the bar or 7 day use of the conference facilities, is this business the responsibility of the club or the cic? Ie, will it be the cic who'll be managing this new business? Will certain staff - such as someone letting people in and out of the buildings - be expected to be voluntary by members of the cic? Is it planned that, if possible, the cic members contribute not just financially but also contribute their time and skills for free aswell? And if e.g. the bar, begins to make a profit (I would expect that the bar staff would be paid staff) would any profit that is made by new business go to the cic bank accounts or the club bank accounts? Obviously this would matter in terms of paying off any cic debt or going towards team budgets. I have been in the catering trade for 36 years. I work half the year and half the year off. When free I don't mind doing my bit for the club for free. Organizing . cooking up nosh anything if the whole CIC thing comes off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I have been in the catering trade for 36 years. I work half the year and half the year off. When free I don't mind doing my bit for the club for free. Organizing . cooking up nosh anything if the whole CIC thing comes off. I'm already doing stuff for free. I'm not pulling pints, making sandwiches, or locking up after the Muslim bowlers. If they left me with the keys I'd be on the forum asking for 21 guys to come down for a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) No worries Sid, I'm thinking maybe a good community use of the new members bar would be a boxing night. Top of the bill Slugger Sid v Fightin' Fraz. On the subject of the members (and guests) 'facility'. It needs a name. The CIC have come up with the '87 Club' for a membership scheme. How about organising a competition for fans to submit suggestions to name the new bar? That would be community involvement. Winner gets free corporate hospitality, a wee piece in the match programme... I think finding a name will be the least of your worries. I wish someone would explain to me how this bar is going to contribute hard cash profits to the CIC and/or the Club. As I understand it, it will be open before and after home games. That would be about 25- to 30 'events' a year. Plus maybe the odd funeral ! It's a long time (about 15 years) since I worked in the hospitality industry but I can't see how this can make any real profit. Given that its fit out costs (a five figure sum, I suspect) will have to be paid back over a period of time and its trading / opening times will be so limited. If I have understood the terms of the CIC, It will limit the number of potential customers to those paying in their £10 a month and maybe their guests. Even trying to provide draft beers on this very time limited basis will be very hard to make add up. Staff costs and other overheads will add to the problems. The existing bar in the corporate area is not a good comparison since of course the cost is folded into the £100 ish that we pay for the corporate package. Take a walk round the Town Centre (or any other Town centre) and see the number of boarded up pubs and restaurants who have failed to make money from a FULL time business with unlimited potential clients. This seems like just another part of the financial fantasy which is the CIC. Edited April 17, 2011 by animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted April 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I think finding a name will be the least of your worries. I wish someone would explain to me how this bar is going to contribute hard cash profits to the CIC and/or the Club. As I understand it, it will be open before and after home games. That would be about 25- to 30 'events' a year. Plus maybe the odd funeral ! It's a long time (about 15 years) since I worked in the hospitality industry but I can't see how this can make any real profit. Given that its fit out costs (a five figure sum, I suspect) will have to be paid back over a period of time and its trading / opening times will be so limited. If I have understood the terms of the CIC, It will limit the number of potential customers to those paying in their £10 a month and maybe their guests. Even trying to provide draft beers on this very time limited basis will be very hard to make add up. Staff costs and other overheads will add to the problems. The existing bar in the corporate area is not a good comparison since of course the cost is folded into the £100 ish that we pay for the corporate package. Take a walk round the Town Centre (or any other Town centre) and see the number of boarded up pubs and restaurants who have failed to make money from a FULL time business with unlimited potential clients. This seems like just another part of the financial fantasy which is the CIC. I have come to the conclusion your on the wind-up as you keep barking up the same tree over and over the same thing. Ether that or your just thick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) I have come to the conclusion your on the wind-up as you keep barking up the same tree over and over the same thing. Ether that or your just thick I must be brighter that you - since you seem unable to answer the question I have just asked ! Edited April 17, 2011 by animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I have come to the conclusion your on the wind-up as you keep barking up the same tree over and over the same thing. Ether that or your just thick Glad to see that you have seen the light and now realise that there is a difference between open discussion and people ripping the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I think finding a name will be the least of your worries. I wish someone would explain to me how this bar is going to contribute hard cash profits to the CIC and/or the Club. As I understand it, it will be open before and after home games. That would be about 25- to 30 'events' a year. Plus maybe the odd funeral ! It's a long time (about 15 years) since I worked in the hospitality industry but I can't see how this can make any real profit. Given that its fit out costs (a five figure sum, I suspect) will have to be paid back over a period of time and its trading / opening times will be so limited. If I have understood the terms of the CIC, It will limit the number of potential customers to those paying in their £10 a month and maybe their guests. Even trying to provide draft beers on this very time limited basis will be very hard to make add up. Staff costs and other overheads will add to the problems. The existing bar in the corporate area is not a good comparison since of course the cost is folded into the £100 ish that we pay for the corporate package. Take a walk round the Town Centre (or any other Town centre) and see the number of boarded up pubs and restaurants who have failed to make money from a FULL time business with unlimited potential clients. This seems like just another part of the financial fantasy which is the CIC. I doubt any profits from the bar was included in the business plan presented to the funding bodies - they'll probably be concerned with the membership take up. IF the bar makes a profit then it'll probably be a bonus - as long as it doesn't make a loss it'll probably exist as a facility that can be used as a further conference/ function area. However I can see it being open for more than just pre and post match. It could be used for football specials - Scotland games, Champions League, cup finals etc. Plus I could see it being used for CIC functions, maybe monthly quiz nights, race nights, charity auctions. I think maybe it wouldn't be open full time due to it not being able to make money....however, there's no other pubs in the area so it could well be a local pub for the ferguslie park area (I'm not aware of the licensing issues, it may be that it can't stay open full time due to licensing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Really? And who were these organisations that we were in debt to ? I thought it was actually a loss of that amount? And this was only because the new stadiums value had depreciated from brand new to .....2nd hand so to speak. Yes really, the debts were listed as Loans (due within 1 year) £30,000 Hire Purchase (due within 1 year) £7,756 Trade Creditors £216,519 Social Security & other taxes £72,840 VAT £6,281 Other Creditors £5,742 Wages Control £20,484 Accrued Expenses £414,335 Loans (due after more than 1 year) £82,500 Hire Purchase (due after more than 1 year) £8,015 Total £864,472 Edited April 17, 2011 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Yes really, the debts were listed as Loans (due within 1 year) £30,000 Hire Purchase (due within 1 year) £7,756 Trade Creditors £216,519 Social Security & other taxes £72,840 VAT £6,281 Other Creditors £5,742 Wages Control £20,484 Accrued Expenses £414,335 Loans (due after more than 1 year) £82,500 Hire Purchase (due after more than 1 year) £8,015 Total £864,472 What are the accrued expenses? Sound a bit vague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 What is the date on the accounts? I would hardly say that is 800k in debt, most of it is made up from what is owed out for general expenses at the end of the financial year? Reason I ask the date of the accounts is we probably haven't received our prize money from the SPL for the footballing season that the expenses ore owed out from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_the_saint Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Yes really, the debts were listed as Loans (due within 1 year) £30,000 Hire Purchase (due within 1 year) £7,756 Trade Creditors £216,519 Social Security & other taxes £72,840 VAT £6,281 Other Creditors £5,742 Wages Control £20,484 Accrued Expenses £414,335 Loans (due after more than 1 year) £82,500 Hire Purchase (due after more than 1 year) £8,015 Total £864,472 It would be interesting to see the breakdown of what theses debts actually are. I remember when they first came out, a lot of people seemed to be not too worried about them, saying they were to be expected, just operating debts that all companies have. It may also be that when it was said we are debt free, it meant there is no debt against the assets - ie, the ground etc. are secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Not too worried about the bar / function suite being productive. The CIC model ensures far more utilisation than if it was just a supporters bar. As well as supporters looking to use the function suite for birthday parties, weddings, wakes, etc there will also be CIC members users looking to use the facility. I reckon getting the suite booked will be more of an issue than it being under used. I doubt the plan is a Mon-Sun 11am - 11pm supporters bar. I would expect to see more bog standard supporters events like ex-player evenings - rather than £100 a seat auction bollox - an evening mingling with the ex-players for tie-less supporters would see the pay-bar pretty full I would think. Looking at the number of people in Paisley's pubs these days it obviously doesn't take much to turn a profit. St Mirren will obviously have a head start in attracting punters. With at least 24 community members they could be utilising charity nights using our managers and players as an additional attraction - I am sure organising signed shirts / footballs for such events wouldn't be a significant overhead. The cross-selling / marketing opportunities with the community and corporate members in terms of functions, marketing, etc will be significant. At the risk of winding up some of the CIC knockers, once it is revealed who they are we will have a better idea of what can be done together. Exciting times for the club, its supporters and for Renfrewshire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I went to the Aberdeen midweek game curry night. £35 ST holder rate. It was a huge success, 130 attended, and En Croute's grub was the business. Hmmm. Profit Animal? Aside from the new facility being a members and guests bar, it is being designed for multi-purpose use, and don't you think the prospect of holding far more 'casual hospitality' events hasn't already been thought about? Pizza and pasta? Curry again? Do you think this place is being kitted out like the Queen Vic and used for two hours every home game? 130 satisfied customers at £35 - £45 a head, plus bar sales? Do the math my friend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000hours Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) £860k was the figure listed as owed by the club to various organizations in the last set of accounts (May 31, 2010). In your information document you say So has this debt been repayed or do you mean something different? Accounts of any organisation take a snap shot at a set point in the year. At any point in time the club is owned money by some and owns money to others, and it is this along with some other accounting rules when applied to a set of statutory accounts that can give the impression that any debt is bank debt. It is not. Without getting into too much detail perhaps it would be better to clarify the document description as meaning there is no "traditional bank debt" The club has no borrowings from any bank. It is this fact we are referring to. In that unlike is some other football businesses where every time the club earns some additional money there may be a bank asking for their slice this is not the case at St Mirren. When you exclude depreciation. The club is now on a level footing meaning that any extra money the club can earn through being controlled by the CIC can be used by the club for whatever its board (voted on by the majority sharholsing controlled by the CIC) deemappropriate, one would suggest that increased player budgets would be something appropriate. 10000hours CIC Edited April 17, 2011 by 10000hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.