The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Guest somner9]

To be fair, and I mean this sincerely - if this was going to be an organisation completely controlled and run by St Mirren supporters - I'd emigrate to Helmand Province rather than be part of it. It would go tits-up within a week.

room on that Hercules for another

[Stuart Dickson]

On the two occasions on which I've actually had a lift to the ground the drivers involved never had a problem parking.

The does-not-compute statements in Lost Ud's sentence would almost make you think this was a made-up fib!

btw I did see the smilie, added...

Anyone would think you were deflecting away from the question's I asked last night, which were

1. Am I correct in speculating that the 8 corporate customers that make up this 75% of target come from the following group of businesses - Maxi Group, Kibble, JD Sports, a Glasgow based firm of solicitors, a Paisley taxi company and the five members of the consortium?

2. Where is the value for money in the package for the 300 supporters expected to part with £10 per month? Why isn't there a incentive like free accompanied admission for Under 16's? Have the CIC considered how they will replace the supporters who quickly find their £10 per month isn't getting them anything? And have they considered the importance of bringing a new generation into the club - not just in some nonsensical childrens panel - but in actually making them part of hard core support?

[2becks]

Anyone would think you were deflecting away from the question's I asked last night, which were

1. Am I correct in speculating that the 8 corporate customers that make up this 75% of target come from the following group of businesses - Maxi Group, Kibble, JD Sports, a Glasgow based firm of solicitors, a Paisley taxi company and the five members of the consortium?

2. Where is the value for money in the package for the 300 supporters expected to part with £10 per month? Why isn't there a incentive like free accompanied admission for Under 16's? Have the CIC considered how they will replace the supporters who quickly find their £10 per month isn't getting them anything? And have they considered the importance of bringing a new generation into the club - not just in some nonsensical childrens panel - but in actually making them part of hard core support?

I'm not acturally a gynecologist but i recognise what this guy is

[FTOF]

Anyone would think you were deflecting away from the question's I asked last night, which were

1. Am I correct in speculating that the 8 corporate customers that make up this 75% of target come from the following group of businesses - Maxi Group, Kibble, JD Sports, a Glasgow based firm of solicitors, a Paisley taxi company and the five members of the consortium?

2. Where is the value for money in the package for the 300 supporters expected to part with £10 per month? Why isn't there a incentive like free accompanied admission for Under 16's? Have the CIC considered how they will replace the supporters who quickly find their £10 per month isn't getting them anything? And have they considered the importance of bringing a new generation into the club - not just in some nonsensical childrens panel - but in actually making them part of hard core support?

You're taking a lot of interest in this for someone who has stated many times that he has no interest in St.Mirren.

We know your game.Now f**k off and take your shit stirring elsewhere fatty.

Leave us, as St.Mirren supporters, to discuss what matters to our club.

[ktf]

You're taking a lot of interest in this for someone who has stated many times that he has no interest in St.Mirren.

We know your game.Now f**k off and take your shit stirring elsewhere fatty.

Leave us, as St.Mirren supporters, to discuss what matters to our club.

Have a GD, despite the red one you gave me yesterday

[bluto]

Anyone would think you were deflecting away from the question's I asked last night

Not at all.

I don't care.

(ps no need for that pesky apostrophe...)

[FTOF]

Have a GD, despite the red one you gave me yesterday

Did I give you a red dot?

As far as I remember,I only gave out one yesterday to some clown on the rumour mill section.

If I did you must have deserved it.

I actually tend to forget that I have the power to give out these dots,despite the blatant post building by some posters in relation to them.

Edited April 15, 2011 by FTOF

[FTOF]

f**k knows what happened there!

Edited April 15, 2011 by FTOF

[Drew]

f**k knows what happened there!

No idea what you're on about mate, but you're getting a red dot for it anyway

[FTOF]

No idea what you're on about mate, but you're getting a red dot for it anyway

If we still had the opportunity to delete our own posts you wouldn't have had to waste one.

I shall save my red dots for a more deserving level of balloonery than you have just exhibited.

Not that I'm post building or anything.

[Stu]

Take the blinkers off folks, this is a very good post. May not agree 100%, but this exactly what an independent website is all about.

Despite my earlier post laughing at him, I agree. Shouldn't matter who it is that makes the post if it makes valid points, which that one does. There's also the fact that he's an anti-Gilmour man Yet is against a scheme that will get rid of him.

Anyone would think you were deflecting away from the question's I asked last night, which were

1. Am I correct in speculating that the 8 corporate customers that make up this 75% of target come from the following group of businesses - Maxi Group, Kibble, JD Sports, a Glasgow based firm of solicitors, a Paisley taxi company and the five members of the consortium?

2. Where is the value for money in the package for the 300 supporters expected to part with £10 per month? Why isn't there a incentive like free accompanied admission for Under 16's? Have the CIC considered how they will replace the supporters who quickly find their £10 per month isn't getting them anything? And have they considered the importance of bringing a new generation into the club - not just in some nonsensical childrens panel - but in actually making them part of hard core support?

Kibble will be one of the community packages, not the corporate ones.

However, your second point is one I was thinking about earlier. What exactly do you get for your tenner a month? I know of numerous folk that will find no interest in a bar at the ground. Would also be good to know just what subjects you get a say in aside from kit choice (which other clubs already do) and ticket price.

[FTOF]

Despite my earlier post laughing at him, I agree. Shouldn't matter who it is that makes the post if it makes valid points, which that one does. There's also the fact that he's an anti-Gilmour man Yet is against a scheme that will get rid of him.

Actually it does.

You know as well as I do that fatty isn't here to discuss the well being of the club.He's deliberately here to stir it up.Why else would he be here as he has no interest in the club?

We've got plenty of healthy debate amongst people who do care about the club,without violent scumbags like him entering the fray.

Onto one of the questions,which others have already asked.

What do I get for £120?

Probably about the same that I get for my £120 a year to SMISA. A sense that I'm helping the club in some small way, plus now I have a bar that I can go to if I wish and have a say in some matters at the club.I reckon most level headed supporters will see it that way.As a shareholder I had a vote at AGM's etc,but I didn't feel as if I ever made any real contribution to the way that the club was run.Maybe this might change.Who knows?

As for the first question.We need to wait and see rather than making things up to suit our own agenda.

Edited April 15, 2011 by FTOF

[Guest somner9]

the more i have considered this the more it raises concerns:

quote 10000 hours doc: "How will this be funded?

The upfront funding of the share purchase will come from organisations that

specically lend to CIC type ventures. The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC

- an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move.

Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated

between 10000hours and a number of the community partners. The second area

is the membership scheme of the CIC."

on the inception of this CiC, the membership puts Nothing into the club. it accesses funding and LOANS to pay £2m to the SG consortium it then states its funding will come from the membership and the trading of St Mirren Football Club (supporters money)

as a CiC it can distribute profits to the community groups (seems a £500 stake might be a wee gold mine), it can pay its directors, those directors can be some/all of the existing ones selling their shares... And at no point is it committed to or has indicated it will put money into the club!

that leaves the supporters and shareholders as the only people putting money in, but any community group, corporate group or directors can take it out....... so the risks are all with saints fans and current shareholders

jeez why didn't i think of this? the selling shareholders and the CiC directors are laughing all the way to the bank as the funding to pay any debt comes from the club and the membership of CiC

[Drew]

If we still had the opportunity to delete our own posts you wouldn't have had to waste one.

I shall save my red dots for a more deserving level of balloonery than you have just exhibited.

Not that I'm post building or anything.

There you go....have a green one to cancel out the naughty red one.

This is fun!

What is this post-building of which you speak?

[Stuart Dickson]

Actually it does.

You know as well as I do that fatty isn't here to discuss the well being of the club.He's deliberately here to stir it up.Why else would he be here as he has no interest in the club?

We've got plenty of healthy debate amongst people who do care about the club,without violent scumbags like him entering the fray.

Onto one of the questions,which others have already asked.

What do I get for £120?

Probably about the same that I get for my £120 a year to SMISA. A sense that I'm helping the club in some small way, plus now I have a bar that I can go to if I wish and have a say in some matters at the club.I reckon most level headed supporters will see it that way.As a shareholder I had a vote at AGM's etc,but I didn't feel as if I ever made any real contribution to the way that the club was run.Maybe this might change.Who knows?

As for the first question.We need to wait and see rather than making things up to suit our own agenda.

Ok, so it's a SMISA style contribution? SMISA have been in operation for what nine or ten years? AFAIK it's been open to every supporter of the club. At one point I was even a member before lapsing. So it should perhaps be a good indication of how the CIC will do. Now I'm asking this cause I have genuinely no idea but does SMISA have 300 members?

Another question I suppose this might raise would be if FTOF and his like transfer their £10 membership of SMISA to the CIC how will the club pay for all the things that SMISA currently pay for. Not that I know what they do pay for. I remember it being towels and t-shirts but maybe these days they are paying for something a bit more useful. Would that transference of money mean that cash is being taken from the playing side of the club to be put into the CIC?

[Stu]

Actually it does.

You know as well as I do that fatty isn't here to discuss the well being of the club.He's deliberately here to stir it up.Why else would he be here as he has no interest in the club?

We've got plenty of healthy debate amongst people who do care about the club,without violent scumbags like him entering the fray.

Onto one of the questions,which others have already asked.

What do I get for £120?

Probably about the same that I get for my £120 a year to SMISA. A sense that I'm helping the club in some small way, plus now I have a bar that I can go to if I wish and have a say in some matters at the club.I reckon most level headed supporters will see it that way.As a shareholder I had a vote at AGM's etc,but I didn't feel as if I ever made any real contribution to the way that the club was run.Maybe this might change.Who knows?

As for the first question.We need to wait and see rather than making things up to suit our own agenda.

Oh aye, he's on a fishing trip but I still think some of his points are valid - and it's certainly the case that the current selling members and Tony's Taxis (or whatever they're called) make up a large chunk of the corporate clients as it says as much in the document.

the more i have considered this the more it raises concerns:

quote 10000 hours doc: "How will this be funded?

The upfront funding of the share purchase will come from organisations that

specically lend to CIC type ventures. The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC

- an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move.

Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated

between 10000hours and a number of the community partners. The second area

is the membership scheme of the CIC."

on the inception of this CiC, the membership puts Nothing into the club. it accesses funding and LOANS to pay £2m to the SG consortium it then states its funding will come from the membership and the trading of St Mirren Football Club (supporters money)

as a CiC it can distribute profits to the community groups (seems a £500 stake might be a wee gold mine), it can pay its directors, those directors can be some/all of the existing ones selling their shares... And at no point is it committed to or has indicated it will put money into the club!

that leaves the supporters and shareholders as the only people putting money in, but any community group, corporate group or directors can take it out....... so the risks are all with saints fans and current shareholders

jeez why didn't i think of this? the selling shareholders and the CiC directors are laughing all the way to the bank as the funding to pay any debt comes from the club and the membership of CiC

Where does it say the CIC will distribute profits to the community groups? Norrie has said on the OS forum that neither Chris Stewart or Richard Atkinson will be paid - of course, that doesn't mean other directors will be.

My question would be what happens if/when the CIC doesn't get the grants/loans it is after.

[Drew]

Oh aye, he's on a fishing trip but I still think some of his points are valid

I agree. He has made a few valid points. Sadly with Stuart, there is just too much baggage.

[Stuart Dickson]

Oh aye, he's on a fishing trip but I still think some of his points are valid - and it's certainly the case that the current selling members and Tony's Taxis (or whatever they're called) make up a large chunk of the corporate clients as it says as much in the document.

Actually it's not a fishing trip Stu. The idea of a proper community club is something that interests me greatly. It's no secret that I've been heavily involved in a couple of community sports clubs in my neck of the woods and I've got my own ideas as to how a senior professional football club could work in partnership with those to the mutual financial benefit of both parties. To be totally honest I don't see why you would need to operate as a Community Interest Club to do it but it's wrong to suggest that I've got little interest in this whether it was a club like St Mirren or one like Stenhousemuir or Airdrie.

I am extremely sceptical though - especially in how this is being released. Like Somner9 I can see how it could work in the wrong hands and I am very dubious that anyone would be willing to give publicly funded grants to an organisation to enable them to give their five current directors a £2m pay off. I'm also extremely sceptical that this scheme would survive more than a couple of months after the initial wave of enthusiasm.

[TsuMirren]

However, your second point is one I was thinking about earlier. What exactly do you get for your tenner a month? I know of numerous folk that will find no interest in a bar at the ground. Would also be good to know just what subjects you get a say in aside from kit choice (which other clubs already do) and ticket price.

I think everyone should put some thought in to what they'd like for their £120 and raise the issue asap. I've put a few ideas to Richard and would like to know what the proposals are. The minutiae would bore most, but I'm sure there's enough there to open up things for fans to have a real say.

[Guest somner9]

Oh aye, he's on a fishing trip but I still think some of his points are valid - and it's certainly the case that the current selling members and Tony's Taxis (or whatever they're called) make up a large chunk of the corporate clients as it says as much in the document.

Where does it say the CIC will distribute profits to the community groups? Norrie has said on the OS forum that neither Chris Stewart or Richard Atkinson will be paid - of course, that doesn't mean other directors will be.

My question would be what happens if/when the CIC doesn't get the grants/loans it is after.

the set up of a CiC allows it to pay profit to community groups that will use said profit for the benefit of the community.

now you could say thats a bad thing or good thing? depends if you want any profit basically created by the club to go to say the church or whoever the community groups are.

i know that CS & RA are not paid at present as bod members of SMFC but i haven't seen anything stating that directors (whoever they may be) of the 10000 hours CiC wont be paid.

if it doesn't get the grants or loans it wont be buying the 52% and things will stay as they are.

another question is any party either acting as one interest or as a (wait for it) a group or "Concert Party" (Oh meet the gang cause the boys are here!) on acquiring 30% of the shares of a company has to make an offer for the remainder. the owners of the remainder don't have to sell but again if the CiC (a party acting in concert) acquire 52% aren't they obliged to bid for the rest? and if so where's that dosh coming from???

would be interesting to know

[Griff]

Please don,t shoot me down for suggesting this , but is there a way of splitting the club into two seperate companies , for example the %52 of the share holding that the CIC representing the football stadium and Ralston facility , and the land about Greenhill Road that the club owns , and the other %48 per cent of the share holding represents the playing side of the Football club .

This would allow an individual to take control of the playing side of the club , but at the same time not put the club at risk of asset strippers.It would also in effect mean that there are few losers in the process.

[Guest somner9]

Please don,t shoot me down for suggesting this , but is there a way of splitting the club into two seperate companies , for example the %52 of the share holding that the CIC representing the football stadium and Ralston facility , and the land about Greenhill Road that the club owns , and the other %48 per cent of the share holding represents the playing side of the Football club .

This would allow an individual to take control of the playing side of the club , but at the same time not put the club at risk of asset strippers.It would also in effect mean that there are few losers in the process.

you could split it as so, but who would want to be at constant loggerheads over every freakin decision? and you's still have the anomaly of the profits (if any) generated potentially going out of the club to the community groups

i think perhaps the 10000 hours group have overplayed the "Asset Stripper" card as SG etc have been clear they want to find a sustainable future for the club. then again if they still basically hold sway with £2m to divi up they possibly would not be worried too much about that overplaying?

[TsuMirren]

Please don,t shoot me down for suggesting this , but is there a way of splitting the club into two seperate companies , for example the %52 of the share holding that the CIC representing the football stadium and Ralston facility , and the land about Greenhill Road that the club owns , and the other %48 per cent of the share holding represents the playing side of the Football club .

This would allow an individual to take control of the playing side of the club , but at the same time not put the club at risk of asset strippers.It would also in effect mean that there are few losers in the process.

There's an asset lock already, sorry I mean there will be an asset lock should it all go through. Would the 48% fund any perceived deficit in the playing budget? How would you assign money coming in to either side of the budget? A few seconds though and already it becomes a complete pain in the backside.

[Stuart Dickson]

I think everyone should put some thought in to what they'd like for their £120 and raise the issue asap. I've put a few ideas to Richard and would like to know what the proposals are. The minutiae would bore most, but I'm sure there's enough there to open up things for fans to have a real say.

Do you mean e-mail him or post on here to spark a debate? If its the latter then how about I start things off with use of the car park, and free admission for accompanied under 16's. If both were on offer it might not entice me back to watch football on a regular basis at Greenhill Road, but it would probably entice me to part with a tenner a month for the odd occasion when I do go.

[jimdickloyal]

Do you mean e-mail him or post on here to spark a debate? If its the latter then how about I start things off with use of the car park, and free admission for accompanied under 16's. If both were on offer it might not entice me back to watch football on a regular basis at Greenhill Road, but it would probably entice me to part with a tenner a month for the odd occasion when I do go.

Thank you for small mercies