Bud the Baker Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 BTB - bear in mind that 20 shares wil be allocated to 87 club members - so in reality the 1877 club will probably only be looking for 7 individuals. One of which may well be REA. As I said previously it's not a few key individuals required to make a huge difference to the numbers to get over the finish line. Are these shares coming from GLS's block? If I've missed that piece of news then I apologize but the question remains how does £200,000 (or £175,000) equate to "pretty much 50% of the funding" to paraphrase what GLS said a few posts above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Are these shares coming from GLS's block? If I've missed that piece of news then I apologize but the question remains how does £200,000 (or £175,000) equate to "pretty much 50% of the funding" to paraphrase what GLS said a few posts above? I reckon the rank and file fans will be ploughing around £120,000.00-a-year into the CIC. They'll also be paying around £300-per year for their season tickets. They'll also be buying the thrice a year football kits - sometimes multiples of if they have a family. Then there's all the other cash the rank and file fan puts into the club. Then the poor f'k'rs at SMiSA are getting "sidelined" despite paying all of the above plus offering to donate the £50,000.00 they have raised over the last few years. Without the rank and file fans there is no club. Without the rank and file fans the CIC won't happen. Is it not about time the rank and file were treated as key partners in this - or are we just to show fealty to our commercial lords. F"k that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 It is now a more attractive investment for the SRTB's than the previous proposal - costs them 50% less and provides potentially more benefits - including shareholding in the club that they may be able to sell at a later date for the same capital investment. St Mirren have got a Science Research and Technology Branch???? WTF is an SRTB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 WTF is an SRTB? I'll give you a clue. You are almost certainly king of the SRTB's ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Using a tablet so this'll be short. Voting in a board and leaving them to their own devices is not fan ownership in anything like the true sense. There must be majority direction, albeit if no quorum then its only guidance. Fluffy voting on kits etc won't cut it, the collective investment of the fans deserves nothing less than a real voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Sausage Roll Thieving Bastard or in your case just a MFC (Moaning Faced Cnut) Ah...Ok Carry on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'll give you a clue. You are almost certainly king of the SRTB's ! Seriously Rotund Trolling Bawbags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'll give you a clue. You are almost certainly king of the SRTB's ! I've told you already I don't like sausage rolls. Wishae Wycombe have to put on a full curry dinner to get me to their Management Committee Meetings. I have standards you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 yay no daftie "normal" fans throwing their tuppence worth in, no "community minded" leeches.business minded people are what we need (75% of cic members need to agree on a particular proposal - nae chance ) on that last point why are they not being afforded the chance of a majority decision - is it because they are unlikely to achieve 75% agreement, good one - get the business guys on board i say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 yay no daftie "normal" fans throwing their tuppence worth in, no "community minded" leeches.business minded people are what we need (75% of cic members need to agree on a particular proposal - nae chance ) on that last point why are they not being afforded the chance of a majority decision - is it because they are unlikely to achieve 75% agreement, good one - get the business guys on board i say There's obvious benefits to having successful business men involved in running a football club - it has to be commercial and you need people who have contacts within the business world to help pull in sponsorship and advertising. However I think you are wrong when you say that there's no chance of a 75% agreement. For example if you were to ask members today how St Mirren should vote at the Rangers SPL hearing I think you'd get your majority mandate without any problems at all. It simply means that any member raising a proposal will have to make it convincing enough to persuade a high majority of members or win votes from shareholders. I don't think that is unhealthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 The interim board needs to be manned by someone from day one until the first AGM. I'd be interested to hear your suggestion on how that should be done and what your problem is with the three names that have been put forward for the task. Real bottom of the barrel stuff. The draft constitution that was published is called a draft for a very good reason. Taking a live constitution from a working football club CIC and offering it to the fans for review (which is exacly what happened) seems to be fair enough to me and I am sure most other reasonable people. I'm really not sure what your agenda is here. Working football club??? I thought it came from Clyde? Now that is really the scrapings of the barrel, still they know a thing or two about administration, and literally moving their goalposts. I must have missed the announcements for fans to come along and draft the constitution, no hang on they didn't it's Clyde's, plus again without any consultation 10000 hours has taken on a major creditor, given them a seat on the BoD and again nothing for the people ACTUALLY putting the money up! Any other successful businessmen being parachuted onto the BoD this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Fras Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Any other successful businessmen being parachuted onto the BoD this week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Good ol' Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Working football club??? I thought it came from Clyde? Now that is really the scrapings of the barrel, still they know a thing or two about administration, and literally moving their goalposts. I must have missed the announcements for fans to come along.... Why are you obsessed with where the draft originated? Other than confirming it was reproduced with permission (which I understand it was), any credible fan would be more interested in the content and whether it was effective for the purposes of 10000 hours. I can't see how improving on an already tested document can be seen as negative. It is clearly the most efficient route. Clyde's circumstances are irrelevant to the matter, but you just enjoy muddying the waters and "scraping the barrel". As for "missing announcements", well you don't have a great track record in obtaining information, usually down to your own laziness/incompetence (delete as appropriate). 10000hrs can't be held responsible for that. Edited May 23, 2012 by civilsaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Why are you obsessed with where the draft originated? Other than confirming it was reproduced with permission (which I understand it was), any credible fan would be more interested in the content and whether it was effective for the purposes of 10000 hours. I can't see how improving on an already tested document can be seen as negative. It is clearly the most efficient route. Clyde's circumstances are irrelevant to the matter, but you just enjoy muddying the waters and "scraping the barrel". As for "missing announcements", well you don't have a great track record in obtaining information, usually down to your own laziness/incompetence (delete as appropriate). 10000hrs can't be held responsible for that. well i'm sure no one could accuse you of laziness. You really are such a 'Buzy-buddie' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 well i'm sure no one could accuse you of laziness. You really are such a 'Buzy-buddie' You purport to be looking out for the best interests of SMFC but when it comes down to detail, this comment is the level of debate that you bring to the table. I'm not really surprised though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Why are you obsessed with where the draft originated? Other than confirming it was reproduced with permission (which I understand it was), any credible fan would be more interested in the content and whether it was effective for the purposes of 10000 hours. I can't see how improving on an already tested document can be seen as negative. It is clearly the most efficient route. Clyde's circumstances are irrelevant to the matter, but you just enjoy muddying the waters and "scraping the barrel". As for "missing announcements", well you don't have a great track record in obtaining information, usually down to your own laziness/incompetence (delete as appropriate). 10000hrs can't be held responsible for that. I have reviewed the constitution and for both the rank and file supporter and the community it is shit. Basically, all the power continues to lie with 10000 Hours. Any idea that 10000 Hours is the St Mirren Community should be knocked on the head right away. The constitution leaves the balance of power very much in the hands of 10000 Hours....not the St Mirren community, and about as far away from the rank and file St Mirren fans as it is now. Whilst we all been hanging around waiting for the smallest morsel of information other players in what is supposed to be fan ownership have been negotiating their position in the proposed structure. I remember at the beginning of all of this some comfort was to be taking throught the involvement of SMiSA - who at one point were necessary for access to social funding - hence they were heavily courted by 10000 Hours in the earlier stages of this. They became less important to 10000 Hours and are now "sidelined". For 10000 Hours to work for the fans and the wider community there needs to be a step change in the attitude of the people that seek to represent us. At the moment fans and ordinary members are viewed as consumers rather than active members. The commerically-minded Board members are looking to represent us. They are looking to get as much from us whilst giving us as little as possible in return. That is exactly the way that St Mirren works now as a commercial company seeking to extract as much money as it can from its customers. We keep hearing about how fans will be empowered - however this is just lip service. There is absolutely no evidence of any genuine attempt to empower fans. Instead we are told that the "successful businessmen" who will be approved by 10000 Hours according to the constitution will for the most part also be fans. Again, how does that empower us any differently from what we have at the moment. Rather than genuine community ownership we appear to be getting a very cheap networking opportunity / penis extension for "successful businessmen" who will continue to seek to maximise the revenues and profits from the general support. Unless there is genuine influence from the rank and file fans, and the community this will be nothing more than and extraction of additional money from rank and file fans to help fund the networking opportunities and reputations of people not willing to invest the going rate for owning a football club. We need crystal clear information in terms of what the fans can expect to see from their fan representatives on the BoD and what genuine influence they would have issues like the upcoming SPL vote as well as smaller but just as important to the rank and file fan, and community such as the charging of disabled carers. I don't see the issue with defining with absolute clarity exactly how the - fan input -> CIC Board -> SMFC process is going to work in practise. F"k off with the bollox marketing documents and let's see a clear, simple document that outlines exactly how the voting and decision making processes will work at the club. At the moment we are being asked to commit to a cash investment with absolutely no clue as to what we will end up with as a club. We need to see in writing what is going to be delivered and when. The idea that fans are going to be able to drive what the club will be like in the future is nonsense going by the constitution. That being the case we need the key players on the interim BoD to clearly define their intentions for the club and put in place penalties for failure to deliver such as removal from their place on the BoD - not by a vote within the 10000 Hours Board itself, but by a simple majority vote from the fans. Two options: - tell us the plans for the club and have significant penalty clauses for failure to deliver. - rewrite the constitution so that it actually delivers genuine empowerment for the St Mirren community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I have reviewed the constitution and for both the rank and file supporter and the community it is shit. Basically, all the power continues to lie with 10000 Hours. Any idea that 10000 Hours is the St Mirren Community should be knocked on the head right away. The constitution leaves the balance of power very much in the hands of 10000 Hours....not the St Mirren community, and about as far away from the rank and file St Mirren fans as it is now. Whilst we all been hanging around waiting for the smallest morsel of information other players in what is supposed to be fan ownership have been negotiating their position in the proposed structure. I remember at the beginning of all of this some comfort was to be taking throught the involvement of SMiSA - who at one point were necessary for access to social funding - hence they were heavily courted by 10000 Hours in the earlier stages of this. They became less important to 10000 Hours and are now "sidelined". For 10000 Hours to work for the fans and the wider community there needs to be a step change in the attitude of the people that seek to represent us. At the moment fans and ordinary members are viewed as consumers rather than active members. The commerically-minded Board members are looking to represent us. They are looking to get as much from us whilst giving us as little as possible in return. That is exactly the way that St Mirren works now as a commercial company seeking to extract as much money as it can from its customers. We keep hearing about how fans will be empowered - however this is just lip service. There is absolutely no evidence of any genuine attempt to empower fans. Instead we are told that the "successful businessmen" who will be approved by 10000 Hours according to the constitution will for the most part also be fans. Again, how does that empower us any differently from what we have at the moment. Rather than genuine community ownership we appear to be getting a very cheap networking opportunity / penis extension for "successful businessmen" who will continue to seek to maximise the revenues and profits from the general support. Unless there is genuine influence from the rank and file fans, and the community this will be nothing more than and extraction of additional money from rank and file fans to help fund the networking opportunities and reputations of people not willing to invest the going rate for owning a football club. We need crystal clear information in terms of what the fans can expect to see from their fan representatives on the BoD and what genuine influence they would have issues like the upcoming SPL vote as well as smaller but just as important to the rank and file fan, and community such as the charging of disabled carers. I don't see the issue with defining with absolute clarity exactly how the - fan input -> CIC Board -> SMFC process is going to work in practise. F"k off with the bollox marketing documents and let's see a clear, simple document that outlines exactly how the voting and decision making processes will work at the club. At the moment we are being asked to commit to a cash investment with absolutely no clue as to what we will end up with as a club. We need to see in writing what is going to be delivered and when. The idea that fans are going to be able to drive what the club will be like in the future is nonsense going by the constitution. That being the case we need the key players on the interim BoD to clearly define their intentions for the club and put in place penalties for failure to deliver such as removal from their place on the BoD - not by a vote within the 10000 Hours Board itself, but by a simple majority vote from the fans. Two options: - tell us the plans for the club and have significant penalty clauses for failure to deliver. - rewrite the constitution so that it actually delivers genuine empowerment for the St Mirren community. This Back at ya' 10000 hours, never mind fan ownership, you've just been 'Owned' by Sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Sid, this is a monumental change of position in the space of a few days, even for you! Have to say I really don't share your concerns though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 This Back at ya' 10000 hours, never mind fan ownership, you've just been 'Owned' by Sid Yup, hell hath no fury greater than a man who sees the sausage rolls disappearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Sid, this is a monumental change of position in the space of a few days, even for you! Have to say I really don't share your concerns though. Not at all civilsaint......REA has done an excellent job in getting us this far. I applaud him for all that he has acheived. My concern relates to the role of the fans at this stage in the process - and frankly it is non-existent. That does not really reflect fan empowerment. We might get fan ownership as we are key investors.....however we are not getting fan empowerment, which should be a key measure of our Return on Investment. The social funders will measure social return on investment. There are key performance indicators that result in 10000 Hours not having to pay back any money. Why don't fans shift the goalposts and empower ourselves. Negotiate our own key performance indicators and if 10000 Hours don't deliver there are financial / yer sacked bawbag penalties? Instead we are to be herded like sheep into backing a proposal that has something in it for every f'k'r apart from the clubs biggest investors - the supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 There are clearly those that don't think 10000Hours and fan ownership of the club is a good thing for St.Mirren. In 23 days time a bid will be submitted for that to happen and if enough people have committed then it WILL happen. The entire future of the club will change forever if this goes through. If there was genuine concerns to be raised about this takeover then I'd hope that the opponents would be doing a lot more than trolling a supporters forum. Let's see these people engaging with the selling consortium and 10000Hours directly and communicating their fears and if they are still fearful then let them engage with the media and get a campaign going to de-rail this before it goes through. If you believe fan ownership of St.Mirren is bad then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) There are clearly those that don't think 10000Hours and fan ownership of the club is a good thing for St.Mirren. In 23 days time a bid will be submitted for that to happen and if enough people have committed then it WILL happen. The entire future of the club will change forever if this goes through. If there was genuine concerns to be raised about this takeover then I'd hope that the opponents would be doing a lot more than trolling a supporters forum. Let's see these people engaging with the selling consortium and 10000Hours directly and communicating their fears and if they are still fearful then let them engage with the media and get a campaign going to de-rail this before it goes through. If you believe fan ownership of St.Mirren is bad then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Div, There obviously is some trolling and some spouting of utter pish (GLS brought on board, suddenly those who said he should be aren't happy that he has been - for example), but alongside that is the fact that we're now being asked to do all this whilst not having a meeting arranged to discuss/amend the constitution. I'm pretty sure that was one of the things discussed at earlier meetings. It's obviously not going to be a meeting for the majority of people interested, but it would certainly be useful...there's very little point doing it 1 - 2 - 1 as you miss the little amendments and comments that could make this all drag on. There certainly is an element of "give us the cash and we'll unveil what's under the sheet", whilst you can also argue that with so little evidence of actual fan involvement it's not much different to hiking season ticket prices up by £50, having a whip round and telling all season holders they can vote at the AGM whilst mockingly telling SMISA they can have a seat. All of this is under the obvious spectre of "someone dodgy might come along" and "then what?" so there's the whole catch 22 of people wanting involvement whilst also being prepared to accept something that keeps the club safe. I've noticed chat of 75%, which I thought was to do with a 75% majority of the shareholding being needed to vote things through but then someone mentioned it being 75% of CIC members had to vote a CIC resolution through. If it's the former then great, fair enough, and it does involve the full support...if it's the latter then that's absolutely insane as there will be debate and members could be lost in the voting due to junk mail, messages not getting out, personal choice not to even vote on everything or the vehicle for discussion (We've seen NOTHING about that going forward) just not being good enough. Sadly, work calls or I'd go on a wee bit. Edited May 23, 2012 by TsuMirren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 There are clearly those that don't think 10000Hours and fan ownership of the club is a good thing for St.Mirren. In 23 days time a bid will be submitted for that to happen and if enough people have committed then it WILL happen. The entire future of the club will change forever if this goes through. If there was genuine concerns to be raised about this takeover then I'd hope that the opponents would be doing a lot more than trolling a supporters forum. Let's see these people engaging with the selling consortium and 10000Hours directly and communicating their fears and if they are still fearful then let them engage with the media and get a campaign going to de-rail this before it goes through. If you believe fan ownership of St.Mirren is bad then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Div, that is pish poor. I am 100% in favour of the CIC. I just don't think enough has been done to ensure genuine fan empowerment. That discussion needs to take place and it needs to happen at a public meeting. One that is advertised with plenty of notice for people to attend. I am fed up seeing marketing blah, blah about fan empowerment / fan governance when there hasn't actually been a reasonable document presented that outlines exactly what this means. As far as I can see fans are getting a vote once every three years and even then there are caviats in place that could see the result of the vote dingy'd should it not suit 10000 Hours. If it is just fan ownership that the fans are getting without the empowerment or the governance then we need to be told that now instead of running into major issues later when it will be a case of either keep paying or lose your club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 TsuMirren asked me for a copy of the draft constitution. It was previously available on the 10000 Hours download page according to the email I was sent by 10000 Hours info email alias back on the 30th March. Is there a new link available to download the document? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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