The Referendum Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

OK Mr Confident, £10 bet for charidee? What odds will you give me? Sounds like 2/1

I think I've turned a few folks over the last few weeks....

Anyone?

Can't be arsed checking any of your claims/lies, but I do know for a fact that my Irish Mother-In-Law gets a winter fuel allowance... coal, gas or oil.

Not because she's a pensioner though. She gets it because she's on welfare

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

That's because you know that's the truth. After that statement was made the UK bailed out the Irish banks in a way that will in the long term make us a great deal of profit and we had to help bail out Greece, Spain and Portugal because we're members of the EU. The UK is now on target to being in surplus by 2017 and as you can see in every single report and chart in 2010 the Coalition Government have been reducing the size of the deficit year on year in all constituent parts of the UK except for one - Scotland.

George Osbourne has proven to be capable of running an economy whilst Scottish politicians have proven to be about as reliable with money as a bankrupt drunk or a Rangers Chairman.

We did not 'help' bail out Spanish , Greek , Portuguese banks bloody hell you do make up some utter shit Stuart

[Stuart Dickson]

We did not 'help' bail out Spanish , Greek , Portuguese banks bloody hell you do make up some utter shit Stuart

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2104059/Greece-bailout-UK-faces-added-1bn-save-crisis-hit-euro.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/423861/UK-may-have-to-help-third-Greek-bail-out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10614315/Eurozone-paves-way-for-third-Greek-bail-out.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066196/Now-UK-faces-5bn-bail-Spain--ministers-plan-euro-collapse.html

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-much-will-the-spanish-bailout-cost-the-uk/10719

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8434058/Portugal-asks-for-bail-out-which-could-cost-Britain-4.4-billion.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-gives-42bn-to-portugal-bailout-2285276.html

Really?

The UK is part of the EU and as such we had to contribute to the bail outs of those countries. Hopefully you'll become the first Nat to apologise to me. I won't hold my breath though. The usual tactic is to smear without proof and hope that no-one notices.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Maboza]

I used the wrong word, Mean't to write debt reducing. Now, how many billions did that cost us?

Quote

Government borrowing will be £108bn this year,

£95bn in 2014/15

£75bn in 2015/16

£44bn in 2016/17

£17bn in 2017/18.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26648781

So what happened to the debt reducing by 2015. He made it up, Is Stuart Dickson really George Osborne.

We await the normal reply, it wasn't our fault, it was a big boy that done it and ran away.

Osbourne and the OBR estimates were over-optimistic at every turn.

One wonders exactly how much headway we're actually making as an economy given the mere modest reductions in overall UK deficit whilst selling off £3.2bn of Lloyds bank, another £4.2bn (Lloyds) and £2bn of Royal Mail. All the while the debt and associated interest payments continue to grow. Now paying interest of £43bn per yer.

How will the UK fund the deficit reduction and the huge growing interest payments when everything is sold off?

I suppose they might be banking on things like natural resources eh?!

[Stuart Dickson]

Osbourne and the OBR estimates were over-optimistic at every turn.

One wonders exactly how much headway we're actually making as an economy given the mere modest reductions in overall UK deficit whilst selling off £3.2bn of Lloyds bank, another £4.2bn (Lloyds) and £2bn of Royal Mail. All the while the debt and associated interest payments continue to grow. Now paying interest of £43bn per yer.

How will the UK fund the deficit reduction and the huge growing interest payments when everything is sold off?

I suppose they might be banking on things like natural resources eh?!

During the same period the UK taxpayer had to pay out over £46Bn to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland and £21Bn to bail out the Bank of Scotland. We still own the majority of the shares of those banks and we'll be selling off those assets for a long time to come. We've also got a large number of International Bonds that are generating interest back into the economy having bought the bonds to bail out Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece. Iceland also owe a great deal of money still to the UK.

Just to debunk your claims further still you do know that Jim Sillars has been keen to point out that the vast majority of UK debt doesn't actually exist to anyone who listens. He explains that the UK Treasury policy of Quantative Easing in recent years means that for the most part our National Debt is actually owed to the UK Treasury. In effect we are our own biggest debtor and creditor.

I've also shown in the past that it would be perfectly possible for the UK to pay off it's National Debt at a stroke simply by ridding ourselves of the National Health Service and of State Education and opening up both markets to private enterprise. I doubt any government would ever do it, but the point being that the UK Government own very significant assets both in the UK and abroad and whilst the last Labour government mortgaged us up to an extent that isn't particularly comfortable, we're servicing that debt with ease and that's without discussing Lancashire Shail Gas reserves.

Only Scottish Independence puts a marked economic over reliance on North Sea Oil and a vulnerability that comes from fluctuating Brent Crude prices. Together we are far more stable.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

During the same period the UK taxpayer had to pay out over £46Bn to bail out the Royal Bank of Scotland and £21Bn to bail out the Bank of Scotland. We still own the majority of the shares of those banks and we'll be selling off those assets for a long time to come. We've also got a large number of International Bonds that are generating interest back into the economy having bought the bonds to bail out Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece. Iceland also owe a great deal of money still to the UK.

Just to debunk your claims further still you do know that Jim Sillars has been keen to point out that the vast majority of UK debt doesn't actually exist to anyone who listens. He explains that the UK Treasury policy of Quantative Easing in recent years means that for the most part our National Debt is actually owed to the UK Treasury. In effect we are our own biggest debtor and creditor.

I've also shown in the past that it would be perfectly possible for the UK to pay off it's National Debt at a stroke simply by ridding ourselves of the National Health Service and of State Education and opening up both markets to private enterprise. I doubt any government would ever do it, but the point being that the UK Government own very significant assets both in the UK and abroad and whilst the last Labour government mortgaged us up to an extent that isn't particularly comfortable, we're servicing that debt with ease and that's without discussing Lancashire Shail Gas reserves.

Only Scottish Independence puts a marked economic over reliance on North Sea Oil and a vulnerability that comes from fluctuating Brent Crude prices. Together we are far more stable.

silly boy no we are not better together and as I have pointed out there will be another oil boom in Scotland's west coast. Pipe fitter will be rubbing there hands together so they will

[Stuart Dickson]

silly boy no we are not better together and as I have pointed out there will be another oil boom in Scotland's west coast. Pipe fitter will be rubbing there hands together so they will

No-one is denying the potential for oil on the Atlantic Shelf but how much of it will be Scottish?

http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/image/59193605223

Pipefitters will be rubbing their hands together regardless of who's oil it is but maybe given the state of the respective economies and the ideology of the respective governments it would be better if we had a tax cutting Conservative Government leaving us with a larger proportion of our income.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

silly boy no we are not better together and as I have pointed out there will be another oil boom in Scotland's west coast. Pipe fitter will be rubbing there hands together so they will

No-one is denying the potential for oil on the Atlantic Shelf but how much of it will be Scottish?

http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/image/59193605223

I would've thought that the Scottish part of any oil boom in Scotland's west coast would be quite self explanatory, even to you.

Thanks for the pretty colours and the map of Ireland though...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Just to debunk your claims further still you do know that Jim Sillars has been keen to point out that the vast majority of UK debt doesn't actually exist to anyone who listens. He explains that the UK Treasury policy of Quantative Easing in recent years means that for the most part our National Debt is actually owed to the UK Treasury. In effect we are our own biggest debtor and creditor.

Vast Majority? I think Sillars quoted it at around 1/3 of uk debt shuffling between treasury and bank of england. Scotland of course is currently charged interest for its share of total uk debt whether it actually exists or not. Does that seem fair?

Edited April 23, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Guest TPAFKATS]

No deflection from me. I am simply asking if you Nationalists are back to claiming that we could have it as good as the Irish if we had independence. Your great leader believed that Ireland was a Grade A example of what Scotland could be and then the Irish banks collapsed f**king the Irish economy and he dropped that comparison faster

Irish pensioners may well be getting a larger pension than UK pensioners, but then they don't have an NHS, they don't get free bus passes for six years after UK pensioners do, and they don't get a winter fuel allowance. You'll also find that Irish Students have to pay for their university places and yet despite all of that the Irish economy is still f**ked, still shrinking and their unemployment rates stand at 11.8% compared to the UK at 7.2%.

You can get your wee Irish stiffy if you want it, but anyone reading your pish really should look into the bigger picture.

Phew! thank f**k the banks in uk never collapsed and f**ked our economy. Oh, wait...

Unfortunately your bigger picture is made up nonsense to suit your agenda, full of lies and mis-representations.

[smcc]

No-one is denying the potential for oil on the Atlantic Shelf but how much of it will be Scottish?

http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/image/59193605223

Pipefitters will be rubbing their hands together regardless of who's oil it is but maybe given the state of the respective economies and the ideology of the respective governments it would be better if we had a tax cutting Conservative Government leaving us with a larger proportion of our income.

Try this for size, Stuart.

http://dbd-data.co.uk/bb2001/uk.htm

It seems to me that the vast majority of the UK continental shelf surrounds Scotland.

[Stuart Dickson]

Try this for size, Stuart.

http://dbd-data.co.uk/bb2001/uk.htm

It seems to me that the vast majority of the UK continental shelf surrounds Scotland.

The rUK and ROI could hold significant claim to it though as we saw in the North Sea. Boundaries are extended from land to sea and the rUK border would be drawn from Northern Ireland.

The only certainty in any of this is that we're better together

Edited April 24, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

The rUK and ROI could hold significant claim to it though as we saw in the North Sea. Boundaries are extended from land to sea and the rUK border would be drawn from Northern Ireland.

The only certainty in any of this is that we're better together

[salmonbuddie]

Interesting:

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140424/189345058/INTERVIEW-Chomsky-Favors-Scottish-Independence.html

[Drew]

The rUK and ROI could hold significant claim to it though as we saw in the North Sea. Boundaries are extended from land to sea and the rUK border would be drawn from Northern Ireland.

The only certainty in any of this is that we're better together

The rUK and ROI could hold significant claim to it though as we saw in the North Sea. Boundaries are extended from land to sea and the rUK border would be drawn from Northern Ireland.

The only certainty in any of this is that we're better together

You are unravelling, Stuart

[salmonbuddie]

Wrong tense, Drew.

[Vambo57]

Interesting:

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140424/189345058/INTERVIEW-Chomsky-Favors-Scottish-Independence.html

Also interesting... a link from the same page

We'll have even more Oil! Even the UK Govt's own advisors admit it.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140422/189312524/Scottish-Ministers-Will-Seek-Return-Of-Disputed-Waters-Following.html

[Stuart Dickson]

You are unravelling, Stuart

It's not my strongest point, I'll admit that. But the issues remain the same Drew, the Yes Campaign has failed to prove anything at all that is viable. There's no certainty on currency, no certainty on EU Membership, no certainty on NATO Membership - and certainly on all three counts there's no evidence that would suggest we would get any of the three of them on the terms that the SNP claim we would get. In terms of the economy we have evidence that Scotland in 2012-13 Scotland was subsidised by the rest of the UK (Scotland paid 9.1% of the tax revenue taken and got 9.3% of the total spend in the UK) and absolute proof that the Scottish Government ran the Scottish Economy at a huge deficit and we know absolutely that the reason for this is that John Swinney and Alex Salmond completely over estimated North Sea Oil Revenues and based their tax receipts on an extremely expensive price per barrel of oil - a figure that had seldom been reached, never mind sustained at any point in history.

We know without any uncertainty at all that an Independent Scotland would be unable to guarantee our state pensions. Why? Because the SNP themselves have told us that Scotland would need a huge increase in immigration into Scotland to ensure we have the right population balance of workers to pay taxes which can then be paid out to pensioners. We also know that even when the doors were left wide open by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown immigrants didn't flock to Scotland. There's no certainty that an Independent Scotland would look more attractive to an immigrant than England - it certainly has never done so in the past - and there's no certainty that the people of an Independent Scotland would be receptive to that kind of influx, particularly since many area's of Scotland are still blighted by the hatred of "White Settlers" and an "anti English sentiment"

We know without doubt that Independence will mean job losses. Scotland has a massive reliance on Westminster for public sector jobs. Scotland has the highest percentage of public sector workers in the whole of the UK. One forum poster has even stated that the very basis of his employment contract means he and his colleagues would lose their jobs if Scotland became Independent. We also know that many Scotland company bosses have expressed extreme reservations about their ability to remain viable in an Independent Scotland - Babcocks being one example of a private sector company that is massively reliant on Westminster Government contracts.

We have no costings that prove the an Independent Scotland could continue to afford to meet the increasing costs of the NHS, or of State Funded Education. We don't even know how Independence would affect free Further Education as it is the case that EU law stipulates that on Independence English and Northern Irish Students would be entitled to be treated the same as Scottish Students, getting the Scottish taxpayer funded "free" education currently denied to them.

There's so little hard evidence that things would actually "be better" in an Independent Scotland that you simply have to admit that it's a massive leap of faith - that's faith in Scottish politicians - the kind of arseholes you wouldn't want to dirty you shoe by kicking. So much so that the only certain argument coming from the Yes Campaign is that "at least we won't be run by Conservatives"

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Stuart you do realise that the wort of the cut backs have still to come from the UK government. As for sterling of course we will have it. We have been part of European Union for as long as the rest of the UK they will not throw us out now with our resources. You are still making up. a lot of bullshit. Spin spin just like a Tory

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The rUK and ROI could hold significant claim to it though as we saw in the North Sea. Boundaries are extended from land to sea and the rUK border would be drawn from Northern Ireland.

The only certainty in any of this is that we're better together

Hey dicko, you have you quoted me in this post with another forum members quote. I know you are a barefaced liar, but you now appear to be losing your (thin) grasp of reality.

[Bud Bundy]

It's not my strongest point, I'll admit that. But the issues remain the same Drew, the Yes Campaign has failed to prove anything at all that is viable. There's no certainty on currency, no certainty on EU Membership, no certainty on NATO Membership - and certainly on all three counts there's no evidence that would suggest we would get any of the three of them on the terms that the SNP claim we would get. In terms of the economy we have evidence that Scotland in 2012-13 Scotland was subsidised by the rest of the UK (Scotland paid 9.1% of the tax revenue taken and got 9.3% of the total spend in the UK) and absolute proof that the Scottish Government ran the Scottish Economy at a huge deficit and we know absolutely that the reason for this is that John Swinney and Alex Salmond completely over estimated North Sea Oil Revenues and based their tax receipts on an extremely expensive price per barrel of oil - a figure that had seldom been reached, never mind sustained at any point in history.

We know without any uncertainty at all that an Independent Scotland would be unable to guarantee our state pensions. Why? Because the SNP themselves have told us that Scotland would need a huge increase in immigration into Scotland to ensure we have the right population balance of workers to pay taxes which can then be paid out to pensioners. We also know that even when the doors were left wide open by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown immigrants didn't flock to Scotland. There's no certainty that an Independent Scotland would look more attractive to an immigrant than England - it certainly has never done so in the past - and there's no certainty that the people of an Independent Scotland would be receptive to that kind of influx, particularly since many area's of Scotland are still blighted by the hatred of "White Settlers" and an "anti English sentiment"

We know without doubt that Independence will mean job losses. Scotland has a massive reliance on Westminster for public sector jobs. Scotland has the highest percentage of public sector workers in the whole of the UK. One forum poster has even stated that the very basis of his employment contract means he and his colleagues would lose their jobs if Scotland became Independent. We also know that many Scotland company bosses have expressed extreme reservations about their ability to remain viable in an Independent Scotland - Babcocks being one example of a private sector company that is massively reliant on Westminster Government contracts.

We have no costings that prove the an Independent Scotland could continue to afford to meet the increasing costs of the NHS, or of State Funded Education. We don't even know how Independence would affect free Further Education as it is the case that EU law stipulates that on Independence English and Northern Irish Students would be entitled to be treated the same as Scottish Students, getting the Scottish taxpayer funded "free" education currently denied to them.

There's so little hard evidence that things would actually "be better" in an Independent Scotland that you simply have to admit that it's a massive leap of faith - that's faith in Scottish politicians - the kind of arseholes you wouldn't want to dirty you shoe by kicking. So much so that the only certain argument coming from the Yes Campaign is that "at least we won't be run by Conservatives"

Swimming against the Tide as Usual Stu ? Your Diatribe is pure comedy gold, The only pie munching Tory ( apart from Ruth ) in Wishaw to survive E Colli, The Butcher's Apron suits You Sir !

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart you do realise that the wort of the cut backs have still to come from the UK government. As for sterling of course we will have it. We have been part of European Union for as long as the rest of the UK they will not throw us out now with our resources. You are still making up. a lot of bullshit. Spin spin just like a Tory

The UK economy is improving LS, whilst the Scottish economy is getting weaker, that's not spin, it's absolute fact. Just look at the respective economies. The UK deficit has fallen year on year since 2010, the Scottish deficit has shot through the roof and is still climbing. UK unemployment is falling, yet the latest Scottish unemployment figures shows that unemployment here is growing.

Scotland is heavily reliant on two markets for it's exports - oil and whisky. The SNP have stated that they will be operating with around 1/3 to 1/4 of the consulates that the UK currently has. The Whisky market is extremely concerned about the effect this will have on their global exports to the point where the Chief Executive of the Whisky Association has felt the need to express his concerns publicly. And when it comes to oil Alex Salmond and John Swinney over estimated the price of Brent Crude by some considerable distance - ignoring the advice of their own experts - and that has led to the massive deficit this year. Tax revenues from North Sea Oil are falling, not rising, and the Scottish Government hasn't factored that into their projections for the proposed Independent Scotland economy.

I notice in the news today we've got Yvette Cooper from Labour saying Scotland would need 1,000,000 new immigrants coming into the country to cover Scotlands pension deficit. Is that figure accurate? To be honest I wouldn't know. Yvette Cooper is Ed Balls missus and I wouldn't trust her grasp of figures any more than I would any other socialist. However the SNP are on record as saying Scotland needs far more immigrants to pay our pensions so the issue is valid. Could and would Scotland cope with a huge influx of immigrants? Would our social housing, our hospitals and our schools be able to cope? Where will the immigrants come from when we didn't get the figures needed when Labour left the door open? And if all those immigrants are English would some of the more bitter Nationalists be willing to abandon their "White Settler" and "Anti English" nonsense?

None of this is spin LS. What is spin is the denials from the Nationalist camp that comes without any figures or evidence to back it up. Indeed more often than not the response from the Nats is that it'll be OK on the night, despite what all the UK political parties and the Treasury are saying on Sterling, despite what the President of the EU is saying on Europe and despite the fact that we are expecting NATO protection whilst telling them to stick their Trident up their arse.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Scotland doesn't have a deficit - it's pure spin to say that it does.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Iain Duncan Smith warning that vulnerable people "could" lose benefits in Independent Scotland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10783592/Vulnerable-people-could-lose-benefits-in-an-independent-Scotland-warns-minister.html

Aye, the same IDS who is the figurehead of a dept cutting benefits for vulnerable people across uk today - no "could" about that.

He also feels its appropriate to lecture on the costs of welfare IT systems - how late and over budget is his latest plan?

Edited April 24, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Bud Bundy]

The UK economy is improving LS, whilst the Scottish economy is getting weaker, that's not spin, it's absolute fact. Just look at the respective economies. The UK deficit has fallen year on year since 2010, the Scottish deficit has shot through the roof and is still climbing. UK unemployment is falling, yet the latest Scottish unemployment figures shows that unemployment here is growing.

Scotland is heavily reliant on two markets for it's exports - oil and whisky. The SNP have stated that they will be operating with around 1/3 to 1/4 of the consulates that the UK currently has. The Whisky market is extremely concerned about the effect this will have on their global exports to the point where the Chief Executive of the Whisky Association has felt the need to express his concerns publicly. And when it comes to oil Alex Salmond and John Swinney over estimated the price of Brent Crude by some considerable distance - ignoring the advice of their own experts - and that has led to the massive deficit this year. Tax revenues from North Sea Oil are falling, not rising, and the Scottish Government hasn't factored that into their projections for the proposed Independent Scotland economy.

I notice in the news today we've got Yvette Cooper from Labour saying Scotland would need 1,000,000 new immigrants coming into the country to cover Scotlands pension deficit. Is that figure accurate? To be honest I wouldn't know. Yvette Cooper is Ed Balls missus and I wouldn't trust her grasp of figures any more than I would any other socialist. However the SNP are on record as saying Scotland needs far more immigrants to pay our pensions so the issue is valid. Could and would Scotland cope with a huge influx of immigrants? Would our social housing, our hospitals and our schools be able to cope? Where will the immigrants come from when we didn't get the figures needed when Labour left the door open? And if all those immigrants are English would some of the more bitter Nationalists be willing to abandon their "White Settler" and "Anti English" nonsense?

None of this is spin LS. What is spin is the denials from the Nationalist camp that comes without any figures or evidence to back it up. Indeed more often than not the response from the Nats is that it'll be OK on the night, despite what all the UK political parties and the Treasury are saying on Sterling, despite what the President of the EU is saying on Europe and despite the fact that we are expecting NATO protection whilst telling them to stick their Trident up their arse.

Mon Lard Arse - I challenge you to a debate about the issues you raise ? Mon Face Me and the Public you fcking shyster