Gaza

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

In any combat situation there will be civilian casualties,history shows us that is a fact which cannot be denied. We would all wish that these deaths hadn`t happened (on both "sides") and the blame lies with both parties involved.

Hamas must share responsibility for the casualties among their own people, If they care so much for the people who they claim to represent and care so passionately about then they must realise the futility of their actions by their constant rocket attacks on a much bigger ,better equipped & capable foe. Its akin to attacking a tank with a pea shooter and being surprised when said tank blows you & who ever is beside you into a thousand bits.

Israel ,for their part need to stop area bombing these missile sites (which are often placed in residential areas) Area bombing is ineffective & frowned upon by the international community & potentially leaves Israel open to more calls for war crime charges. Israels actions are as much a show of force to the rest of their potential enemies in the middle east as an attempt to weed out Hamas operatives.

Whats the answer ? Honestly , i havent a bloody clue !

While Hamas want to wipe out anything thats remotely Jewish & while Israel continue to have the Military muscle & support from powerful friendly countries to continue getting away with their actions the whole bloody mess will continue on & off. The fundamental difference in the beliefs of both sides will never go away but with a bit of luck and a concerted effort from the whole international community (wont hold my breath on that one!), the best we can hope for is that the situation may be managed to prevent further bloodshed.

Neither of the two sides have a claim to be in the right, the actions of BOTH are resulting in innocent lives being lost daily.

Your concern for human life is shared by many on here and rightly so. What is the solution? Why not start by abiding by International Law as I stated in my first post of which Israel is a signatory.

Don't you think that if we in this country lived under similar conditions as the Palestinians do that we wouldn't produce organizations like Hamas?

[oaksoft]

3 lives < 1000 lives

That's not whataboutery, you stupid person.

It's proportionality or simple moral arithmetic.

I'll leave you to talk to DSS and others who agree with you as you seem incapable of having an adult conversation on this or any other thread with someone who has a different view from you.

[bluto]

Spoken like a true middle class partially educated handwringing tree hugger.

I'll leave you to talk to DSS and others who agree with you as you seem incapable of having an adult conversation on this or any other thread with someone who has a different view from you.

Thank f**k for that.

Door. Arse. Way out.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

The problem here is that Hamas have been firing rockets for many many months into Israel. They arent going to stop so Israel has every right to defend itself. And I support them in doing so. Hamas are also firing the rockets from residential buildings, schools, hospitals etc. They speak openly about using the poor bastards in Gaza as human shields. Which is actually a war crime (not that the UN has said a word on THAT) And Hamas have a stated aim of killin all Jews and cleansing muslim land of all Jews, christians and anything else that isnt muslim. So, take the side of them and thats what you support. Good luck.

There is also a huge fight currently going on in Syria, Isis are trying to conquers Iraq and are at Baghdads gates. The have cleansed ALL Christians from Mosul (where they have been long before Islam was dreamed up) and are going around executing people that arent their version of islam. We dont seem as fixated on any of that.

These types will eventually be marching on Israel as well. They, like Hamas, have a stated aim of killing all jews and the destruction of all things jew related and a retaking of "their" land. They want one muslim caliphate in the area. Im not exactly sure why the loony left decided to support these types of people who treat everyone who doesnt think like them as a piece of shit but there has been a long strand of anti Jewishness with the hard left since it was shat out as a political view.

Anyway. Islam is the real problem here. Anyone that cant see this is a bit of a fool. Wherever it goes, it brings death and misery and a destruction of peoples freedoms.

This

[Guest TPAFKATS]

This

This is the view of a right wing fandan and not necessarily factually correct

Edit - it actually reads like one of Tony Blairs statements on the middle east.

Edited July 30, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Reynard]

This is the view of a right wing fandan and not necessarily factually correct

what facts were wrong then champ?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Another day, another UN run school in Gaza gets hit by Israeli missiles. More kids and adult civilians dead - this will be what reynard and IOBS regard as Israel defending itself.

[Reynard]

Nonsense. Arabs in Israel are discriminated against in all walks of life. Remember, Israel is a state for Jews. That's the Zionist reality and all others come second.

Apart from the ones elected to the parliament, the ones running businesses, the ones in the IDF, the ones free to worship their religion freely, etc etc? Those ones?

Worth mentioning that the arab population in Israel has grown constantly since 1948. Can you tell me how the Jews are getting on in the muslim neighborhood? Hows that working out for them?

[bluto]

what facts were wrong then champ?

At a guess your suggestion that Islam is the real problem here, has to be one of the factual inconsistencies

I would have accepted that religion, as ever, is a significant problem whether it is Judaism or Moslem, but the real problem has to be Zionism. I know several Jews who are appalled by the things being done by Zionists in occupied Palestine, things that taint their Jewish faith by association. And there are many examples of leading "Jews" who are articulate in their antagonism towards the Zionist state and its practices.

I'd agree that Hamas is unappealing, mediaeval in outlook and... well... pretty mental.... But as DSS suggests above, would there not be similar Scots emerging in such a situation if it were to be thus - in Scotland? And would we not see them as being on the right side?

[bluto]

Worth mentioning that the arab population in Israel has grown constantly since 1948. Can you tell me how the Jews are getting on in the muslim neighborhood? Hows that working out for them?

Also worth mentioning is the fact that Israel has also grown by aggression and occupation since 1948.

So, of course, the Arab population has grown as more have been entrapped.

And, of course, I doubt there is any part of the Arab world that has not seen a population explosion.... So again, clever though it is, I'm sorry but I don't think it's a salient 'factoid'.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

what facts were wrong then champ?

The problem here is that Hamas have been firing rockets for many many months into Israel. They arent going to stop so Israel has every right to defend itself.

Depends on definition of defend - missile defence shield yes, bombing schools and besieging a whole state?

And I support them in doing so. Hamas are also firing the rockets from residential buildings, schools, hospitals etc. Opinion propagated by Israel not backed up by UN whose schools are being bombed

They speak openly about using the poor bastards in Gaza as human shields. They are imprisoned in an urban area that is one of the most densely populated on earth - how would you suggest they approach this fight? They dont have an air force, navy or heavy artillery.

Which is actually a war crime (not that the UN has said a word on THAT) And Hamas have a stated aim of killin all Jews and cleansing muslim land of all Jews, christians and anything else that isnt muslim. So, take the side of them and thats what you support. Good luck. Thats not they word it but hey ho

There is also a huge fight currently going on in Syria, Isis are trying to conquers Iraq and are at Baghdads gates. At the gates - have you been watching too many old films about the crusades?

The have cleansed ALL Christians from Mosul (where they have been long before Islam was dreamed up) and are going around executing people that arent their version of islam. We dont seem as fixated on any of that. If it concerns you so much start a thread - I'm not sure how this makes the actions of Israel ok though?

These types will eventually be marching on Israel as well. They, like Hamas, have a stated aim of killing all jews and the destruction of all things jew related and a retaking of "their" land. They want one muslim caliphate in the area. Im not exactly sure why the loony left decided to support these types of people who treat everyone who doesnt think like them as a piece of shit but there has been a long strand of anti Jewishness with the hard left since it was shat out as a political view. Lots more right wing opinion then but not a lot of fact...

Anyway. Islam is the real problem here. Anyone that cant see this is a bit of a fool. Wherever it goes, it brings death and misery and a destruction of peoples freedoms. That's an interesting sweeping generalisation - a bit like the muslims in Iraq, Egypt etc thinking the same of the crusading christianity of Blair & Bush. I don't expect you'll see the irony.

Loads of opinion and not much in the way of facts? Loads of deflection to absolve Israel by trying to connect other Muslim conflicts with Gaza.

[Reynard]

At a guess your suggestion that Islam is the real problem here, has to be one of the factual inconsistencies

I would have accepted that religion, as ever, is a significant problem whether it is Judaism or Moslem, but the real problem has to be Zionism. I know several Jews who are appalled by the things being done by Zionists in occupied Palestine, things that taint their Jewish faith by association. And there are many examples of leading "Jews" who are articulate in their antagonism towards the Zionist state and its practices.

I'd agree that Hamas is unappealing, mediaeval in outlook and... well... pretty mental.... But as DSS suggests above, would there not be similar Scots emerging in such a situation if it were to be thus - in Scotland? And would we not see them as being on the right side?

Really? Lets see. Somalia is in turmoil, why? Islam. Syria/Islam, Iraq/Islam, Kenya/Islam, Libya/Islam, Gaza/Islam.

I think you really need to have a wee look around and understand why its all kicking off and whats at the root of it. Israel is certainly in the front line but has actually traded land for peace before. It handed over an area bigger than itself and which also contains oil to trade peace with Egypt. This peace has held. Why would they have bothered if the aim was expansion? Why would they have uprooted their people from the Gaza strip in exchange for peace if the object was what you say it is? Why would Hamas constantly break the ceasefires and refuse to negotiate if their objective was peace?

Fair enough to handwring about civilians being howked as its not right. But ask why hamas use hospitals to store weapons. Ask why they launch rockets from schools in full view of the UN who refuse to condemn them. Ask why they use human shields and openly boast about the tactic in a blatant breach of the Geneva convention and international law in order to gain a propaganda victory with soft in head types?

The only country that agreed to the borders drawn up as they were in 1947 was Israel. They accepted them and accepted the Palestinian state at that time and t was the arabs who refused to recognise Israel, although Egypt subsequently did and they are still at peace. Why have the Palestinians constantly rejected peace? Why have they constantly fired rockets into Israel? Why do they build tunnels using child labour? Why, wehn nearly 200 kids have died building these attack tunnels does nobody condemn them? Why, when they have five minute warnings that there will be a strike on a building do they refuse to allow civilians to leave?

[Reynard]

Also worth mentioning is the fact that Israel has also grown by aggression and occupation since 1948.

So, of course, the Arab population has grown as more have been entrapped.

And, of course, I doubt there is any part of the Arab world that has not seen a population explosion.... So again, clever though it is, I'm sorry but I don't think it's a salient 'factoid'.

As a result of defensive action. In 1948, ONE day after the formation of the state of Israel, the arab atanks rolled in. They got their arses kickes. They also got their arses kicked in 1967 when arab armies attempted to crush them a second time. And of course they took Sinaia off Egypt but traded it for peace. All land taken in defensive action can be legitimately held according to international law. Or do you disagree?

The ever so oppressed arbs who live and work quite happily in Israel side by side with their jewish countrymen dont whine half as much as the loony left do all the same.

[Reynard]

Loads of opinion and not much in the way of facts? Loads of deflection to absolve Israel by trying to connect other Muslim conflicts with Gaza.

No. I gave you pleanty of facts actually. How you choose to deal with them is your affair.

I WAS actually talking about Islam in the region on the whole too. Its not just kicking off in Gaza is it? Its kicking off all round the region and in Africa too. Inconvenient when people need to blame the wests foreign policy and Israel, but the fact is that the loony Islamic element want their caliphate back, and they are in the process of attempting to do just that.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Reynard

[bluto]

Really? Lets see. Somalia is in turmoil, why? Islam. Syria/Islam, Iraq/Islam, Kenya/Islam, Libya/Islam, Gaza/Islam.

I think you really need to have a wee look around and understand why its all kicking off and whats at the root of it. Israel is certainly in the front line but has actually traded land for peace before. It handed over an area bigger than itself and which also contains oil to trade peace with Egypt. This peace has held. Why would they have bothered if the aim was expansion? Why would they have uprooted their people from the Gaza strip in exchange for peace if the object was what you say it is? Why would Hamas constantly break the ceasefires and refuse to negotiate if their objective was peace?

Fair enough to handwring about civilians being howked as its not right. But ask why hamas use hospitals to store weapons. Ask why they launch rockets from schools in full view of the UN who refuse to condemn them. Ask why they use human shields and openly boast about the tactic in a blatant breach of the Geneva convention and international law in order to gain a propaganda victory with soft in head types?

The only country that agreed to the borders drawn up as they were in 1947 was Israel. They accepted them and accepted the Palestinian state at that time and t was the arabs who refused to recognise Israel, although Egypt subsequently did and they are still at peace. Why have the Palestinians constantly rejected peace? Why have they constantly fired rockets into Israel? Why do they build tunnels using child labour? Why, wehn nearly 200 kids have died building these attack tunnels does nobody condemn them? Why, when they have five minute warnings that there will be a strike on a building do they refuse to allow civilians to leave?

tony soprano has suggested to you why I was trying to deal with the Gaza situation in the Gaza thread. I could link any of life's little problems as a global conspiracy if I tried, but I believe that the Gaza conflict is more than simply a wee part of an Islamic conspiracy.

Tony has also suggested the reasons why Hamas are constricted in their options for response and we all know who imposes those restrictions, as well as all the others imposed on normal life in the occupied territories.

No need to ask "why" so often - there is a single answer: Zionism.

It has sadly distorted life in that part of the world to the detriment of its neighbours and its own citizens.

[Reynard]

Loads of opinion and not much in the way of facts? Loads of deflection to absolve Israel by trying to connect other Muslim conflicts with Gaza.

Love the way that Israel is only allowed to defend itself against rocket fire by catching them in mid air. Taking out the rocket launchers themselves not allowed in your world... I wonder how youd expect us to react if, for arguments sake, rockets were being fired across the water into Paisley from Northern Ireland or something like that? Just build an expensive battery of rocket interceptors and hope it works? Im glad you arent responsible for defence of the people if thats the case.

[Reynard]

tony soprano has suggested to you why I was trying to deal with the Gaza situation in the Gaza thread. I could link any of life's little problems as a global conspiracy if I tried, but I believe that the Gaza conflict is more than simply a wee part of an Islamic conspiracy.

Tony has also suggested the reasons why Hamas are constricted in their options for response and we all know who imposes those restrictions, as well as all the others imposed on normal life in the occupied territories.

No need to ask "why" so often - there is a single answer: Zionism.

It has sadly distorted life in that part of the world to the detriment of its neighbours and its own citizens.

No, its part of the Islamic fundamentalist uprising alright.

Yep, Israel and Egypt. Egypt also hates Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood

Edited July 30, 2014 by Reynard

[Reynard]

Blutos understanding of Islam is about as poor as his understanding of whats going on in Gaza and in Israel.

This will play out regardless. Eventually a few more of you might realise what is actually happening and the sort of exteme Islamists are involved in the entire region.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

To perhaps shed light on the situation please view this interview on BBC's Hardtalk with the Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe shown a couple of weeks ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lsmFS75ed4

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

Blutos understanding of Islam is about as poor as his understanding of whats going on in Gaza and in Israel.

This will play out regardless. Eventually a few more of you might realise what is actually happening and the sort of exteme Islamists are involved in the entire region.

All I'm seeing in your contributions is islamophobia and superficially historically significant points.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Desperately Seeking Susans

[bluto]

No, its part of the Islamic fundamentalist uprising alright.

Yep, Israel and Egypt. Egypt also hates Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood

As an organisation, I have little doubt that Hamas is riven with Islamic fundamentalists.

However, by refusing to deal with Arafat and previous generations of Palestinian leaders, and by continuing with the Zionist expansion and occupation, Zionism gave birth to the devil it deserved.

Like the Egyptian military, Sadam also hated such fundamentalist groups. Of course, right wing nut jobs got rid of him, didn't they? That was similar great help to the region.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Apart from the ones elected to the parliament, the ones running businesses, the ones in the IDF, the ones free to worship their religion freely, etc etc? Those ones?

Worth mentioning that the arab population in Israel has grown constantly since 1948. Can you tell me how the Jews are getting on in the muslim neighborhood? Hows that working out for them?

Apart from the ones elected to the parliament, the ones running businesses, the ones in the IDF, the ones free to worship their religion freely, etc etc? Those ones?

Worth mentioning that the arab population in Israel has grown constantly since 1948. Can you tell me how the Jews are getting on in the muslim neighborhood? Hows that working out for them?

Can only assume DSS has never been in the middle east.

Take two airline stewardess stopping over in Saudi Arabia, while in a taxi sitting at traffic lights which were at 'red' a local Arab went through the red light smashing into the Taxi with the two stewardess. The Arab cab driver was killed.

This case went to court where the two stewardess were found guilty of man slaughter.

How could that be possible some will ask themselves...Saudi law stated that the taxi would not have been there had two stewardess not been visiting the country therefore the Arab driver would not have been killed.

This of course is typical Arab behaviour which will be recognisable to anyone who has worked in the middle east. Have been a few times and have told my employees never to return me there would rather work in Nigeria which say's a lot.

Many Arabs thrive in Israel my wife's best friends son is a lawyer in Tel Aviv his best mate is Arabic and brought him home to Scotland in June for a holiday he is a wealthy Arabic lived all his life in In Israel.

[bluto]

Can only assume DSS has never been in the middle east.Take two airline stewardess stopping over in Saudi Arabia, while in a taxi sitting at traffic lights which were at 'red' a local Arab went through the red light smashing into the Taxi with the two stewardess. The Arab cab driver was killed.This case went to court where the two stewardess were found guilty of man slaughter.How could that be possible some will ask themselves...Saudi law stated that the taxi would not have been there had two stewardess not been visiting the country therefore the Arab driver would not have been killed.This of course is typical Arab behaviour which will be recognisable to anyone who has worked in the middle east. Have been a few times and have told my employees never to return me there would rather work in Nigeria which say's a lot.Many Arabs thrive in Israel my wife's best friends son is a lawyer in Tel Aviv his best mate is Arabic and brought him home to Scotland in June for a holiday he is a wealthy Arabic lived all his life in In Israel.

Daft - and very wrong - assumption, big yin.

Edited July 30, 2014 by bluto

[beyond our ken]

Blutos understanding of Islam is about as poor as his understanding of whats going on in Gaza and in Israel.

This will play out regardless. Eventually a few more of you might realise what is actually happening and the sort of exteme Islamists are involved in the entire region.

serious question, does your understanding of islam extend beyond newspaper and tv reports?

[shull]

Another day passes and the grown ups still dinnae want to shake hands and have hugs with their fellow human beings.