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If you are a right wing political supporter then that's what vote leave will result in. The Tories will oust David Cameron and the right wing Tories will run our country with a mandate claimed through the country voting to leave.

God help the NHS and workers rights.

That's nonsense and scaremongering on a ridiculous scale and it's not backed with any justifiable evidence at all. Look across Europe right now. Whether you are looking at the National Front in France, the Freedom Party in Austria, or the Jobbik Party in Hungary the extreme right is growing in popularity right across the EU. Even Angela Merkel comes from a Centre Right party in German politics. The idea that the EU is a Socialist enclave is so outdated these days as to be utterly ridiculous.

It's also nonsense to claim that the UK didn't have workers rights before we joined the EEC in 1973. Our Westminster governments didn't need an undemocratic bunch of bureaucrats to tell us to create the NHS or our generous welfare state or to give our workers tea breaks or holidays - they were all already in place before 1973. The EU also had nothing to do with the introduction in the UK of a minimum wage, or the current living wage. Indeed the only real change to workers rights after the EEC became the EU was the working time directive which meant that workers like myself were being told we could no longer increase our earnings by working all the overtime that was on offer, without first signing a waiver form.

As for the NHS - I think it's now widely accepted that the biggest risk to the NHS as we know it is the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership agreement which has been ratified already by the EU. And I am telling you this as someone who will vote to remain in the referendum.

I wish people would switch their brains on when listening to shit propaganda from either side. The bottom line, as Martin Lewis correctly and succinctly stated yesterday is that none of us know for certain what the outcome of voting to remain or to leave will be. If you were to risk manage the options you would have to say that in terms of our jobs, economy and collective wealth there is less risk involved in remaining in the EU because that is the status quo. There is greater risk in leaving the EU because that is change. However again as Martin Lewis said, not all risk is bad - and often some of the biggest wins come from taking a really big risk (like betting on Leicester to win the EPL at 5000-1). Voters need to decide whether they want to take a bigger risk, or a smaller risk and I suppose that depends on what you've got to lose.

Me? I'd prefer less risk. Others can decide for themselves.

Edited by Stuart Dickson

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Still not heard anything from the remain camp to convince me from voting to leave. As for politicians the bore me to death it's like listening to children in a play ground. The EU is not democratic though that could be used for the UK political landscape also.

In what way is either political system undemocratic?

You have elected an MEP to the European Parliament. They are there to represent you and they vote on various items of legislature on your behalf. If you don't believe they are representing you very well than you will get your opportunity to elect someone else to represent your views next time round. The person who will be elected as your MEP will be the person who got the most votes from the locals in your constituency. That is perfectly democratic.

As is Westminster. You've elected your MP. They are supposed to be representing you at Westminster. If you don't believe they are doing a good job you'll get your opportunity to vote for someone else next time. Again your MP was the person who won the most votes in your constituency, and the Prime Minister was the leader of the party who won a majority of seats in the House of Commons. That's all perfectly democratic.

What isn't quite so democratic is the Scottish Parliament, where you do get to elect an MSP to represent your views, but where party leaders can appoint candidates through the list system who haven't been chosen by their electorate to represent them but who are instead appointed by party leaders to represent their political party. Ofcourse that then becomes utterly farcical when list MSP's subsequently either resign the whip, or who have the party whip removed from them because then the get to remain as MSP's representing no-one other than themselves - as happened during the last parliament.

Edited by Stuart Dickson

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In what way is either political system undemocratic?

You have elected an MEP to the European Parliament. They are there to represent you and they vote on various items of legislature on your behalf. If you don't believe they are representing you very well than you will get your opportunity to elect someone else to represent your views next time round. The person who will be elected as your MEP will be the person who got the most votes from the locals in your constituency. That is perfectly democratic.

As is Westminster. You've elected your MP. They are supposed to be representing you at Westminster. If you don't believe they are doing a good job you'll get your opportunity to vote for someone else next time. Again your MP was the person who won the most votes in your constituency, and the Prime Minister was the leader of the party who won a majority of seats in the House of Commons. That's all perfectly democratic.

What isn't quite so democratic is the Scottish Parliament, where you do get to elect an MSP to represent your views, but where party leaders can appoint candidates through the list system who haven't been chosen by their electorate to represent them but who are instead appointed by party leaders to represent their political party. Ofcourse that then becomes utterly farcical when list MSP's subsequently either resign the whip, or who have the party whip removed from them because then the get to remain as MSP's representing no-one other than themselves - as happened during the last parliament.

EU judge's suppose these unelected burocarts don't make up EU rules ? Ofcourse they do . You obviously are another who needs to read up on who makes EU rules there is a whole chamber of unelected people who make EU rules also. Just type this into Google - Who makes EU rules.

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EU judge's suppose these unelected burocarts don't make up EU rules ? Ofcourse they do . You obviously are another who needs to read up on who makes EU rules there is a whole chamber of unelected people who make EU rules also. Just type this into Google - Who makes EU rules.

Are you reading the Beano again?

How EU decisions are made

The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as 'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’ (ex "codecision"). This means that the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

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Are you reading the Beano again?

How EU decisions are made

The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as 'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’ (ex "codecision"). This means that the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

The Beno is that still being published.

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IOBS, you're arguing with someone who thinks that Westminster is more democratic than Holyrood. You know, Westminster, where the party with just over a third of the votes in the election gets to be in government. And includes the House of Lords, voted for, democratically, by no-one at all. Much better than that Holyrood system that tries to reflect how the voters actually voted, how could anyone think that's even close to democracy.

Edited by salmonbuddie

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Hollywood are pro leave, they're releasing the new Independence Day movie on the day of the referendum and advertising it on TV and radio with the phrase "the day we take back our independence".

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IOBS, you're arguing with someone who thinks that Westminster is more democratic than Holyrood. You know, Westminster, where the party with just over a third of the votes in the election gets to be in government. And includes the House of Lords, voted for, democratically, by no-one at all. Much better than that Holyrood system that tries to reflect how the voters actually voted, how could anyone think that's even close to democracy.

You think it's more democratic to have party members who have been rejected by their constituencies appointed as MSP's to represent their party? The Holyrood system is f**king bonkers. As we saw during the last parliament two MSP's who were rejected by their constituencies were appointed through the list system to represent the SNP and promptly resigned their whip. Who the f**k were they representing? And yet there was no way to oust them.

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IOBS, you're arguing with someone who thinks that Westminster is more democratic than Holyrood. You know, Westminster, where the party with just over a third of the votes in the election gets to be in government. And includes the House of Lords, voted for, democratically, by no-one at all. Much better than that Holyrood system that tries to reflect how the voters actually voted, how could anyone think that's even close to democracy.

You think it's more democratic to have party members who have been rejected by their constituencies appointed as MSP's to represent their party? The Holyrood system is f**king bonkers. As we saw during the last parliament two MSP's who were rejected by their constituencies were appointed through the list system to represent the SNP and promptly resigned their whip. Who the f**k were they representing? And yet there was no way to oust them.

Read the words. Voters. Democracy. Don't elect them again.

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Read the words. Voters. Democracy. Don't elect them again.

Hows that work then? They were rejected by their constituencies in the first place so the electorate didn't vote for them. Today John Finnie is back in again as an MSP appointed through the list system by the Green Party - having again been rejected by his constituency. Jean Urquhart also tried to work her ticket by joining RISE and being the top list candidate.

The Holyrood system is corrupt and undemocratic. When your constituency rejects you, you shouldn't be subsequently appointed by your party.

Edited by Stuart Dickson

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EU judge's suppose these unelected burocarts don't make up EU rules ? Ofcourse they do . You obviously are another who needs to read up on who makes EU rules there is a whole chamber of unelected people who make EU rules also. Just type this into Google - Who makes EU rules.

Your Google must be broken. EU legislation has to be passed by the parliament and the council which is made up of member countries representatives.

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Hows that work then? They were rejected by their constituencies in the first place so the electorate didn't vote for them. Today John Finnie is back in again as an MSP appointed through the list system by the Green Party - having again been rejected by his constituency. Jean Urquhart also tried to work her ticket by joining RISE and being the top list candidate.

The Holyrood system is corrupt and undemocratic. When your constituency rejects you, you shouldn't be subsequently appointed by your party.

House of Lords.

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With all the same tales of woe (jobs, pensions, etc) being used by the Remain side in this referendum as were used by the No side in the last referendum, does that mean that the UK is too wee, too poor and too stupid to make it on its own? Just asking. :whistle:

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With all the same tales of woe (jobs, pensions, etc) being used by the Remain side in this referendum as were used by the No side in the last referendum, does that mean that the UK is too wee, too poor and too stupid to make it on its own? Just asking. :whistle:

Not sure but Cameron was on Andrew Marr yesterday saying of course Norway is doing well outside the EU, they've got the same amount of oil as uk but only 4 million population.

Brass necked c**t

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Not sure but Cameron was on Andrew Marr yesterday saying of course Norway is doing well outside the EU, they've got the same amount of oil as uk but only 4 million population.

Brass necked c**t

FFS. I don't suppose Marr pushed him on it? Edited by Slartibartfast

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Not sure but Cameron was on Andrew Marr yesterday saying of course Norway is doing well outside the EU, they've got the same amount of oil as uk but only 4 million population.

Brass necked c**t

Couldn't even get that right, population of Norway is almost exactly the same as Scotland's, 5.2m.

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