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Bud the Baker · April 10, 2019

36 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

GLS in making this call said that numbers against Celtic and rangers were generally down based on previous games anyway regarding families and younger fans. Are you saying he lied?

What’s your response to my number backed evidence our mid week crowds against other teams this season are not considerably (or at all) higher than the Celtic game? You can’t deny it.

season ticket sales this season up, home attendance numbers up. Have you got actual evidence that more young fans are staying away this season than previous? Doesn’t sound like you do. I’ll say this again because it’s clearly not going in THE DROP IN FANS IS IN LINE WITH OTHER WEEKDAY GAMES

There you go again claiming more than your evidence supports - one midweek game in bad weather in March (Kilmarnock) against another a month later in BST, in better weather and during the school holidays with (as has been noted elsewhere on the site) Celtic fans paying into the home stands and ourselves in the middle of a vital run of matches if we are to avoid relegation or a play-off spot!

All it really shows is that the attendance at each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances - FWIW I still find oaksoft's model (P13) more relevant than yours especially if you factor in the OK factor the first of this season's games.

Vambo57 · April 10, 2019

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

No person attack at all, LPM has consistently shown he is against all things GLS and SMFC. Just look at his posts.

I have provided actual figures that prove the 1,000 drop he claims is all down to the two stands deal isn’t correct. So his point has been answered.

What’s your response to the fall in numbers being in line with at least our last two weekday games not against Celtic or Rangers?

I don't want to get into this debate, but you are clearly choosing to ignore the fact that despite Celtic fans being given - and filling -2 stands, they still didn't beat the attendance at the Kilmarnock game. So overall the home fans count was significantly down for the Celtic game

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

There you go again claiming more than your evidence supports - one midweek game in bad weather in March (Kilmarnock) against another a month later in BST, in better weather and during the school holidays with (as has been noted elsewhere on the site) Celtic fans paying into the home stands and ourselves in the middle of a vital run of matches if we are to avoid relegation or a play-off spot!

All it really shows is that the attendance at each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances - FWIW I still find oaksoft's model (P13) more relevant than yours especially if you factor in the OK factor the first of this season's games.

There was snow on the hills for the Celtic game and it was bitter cold. Look at the Motherwell crowd as well which was weekday, I could probably look at other weekday games and I wager the home crowds won’t be massively more than the Celtic game.

You are again asking for an impossibility where I provide evidence of every single fans reason for going/ not going to games. My point is and always has been that we don’t see drop off considerable enough for the arrangement to impact other income

Everything you’ve said is subjective, my stats are actual home fan numbers against actual home fan numbers. There is nothing that suggests we see a much larger drop-off in fan numbers because of the decision to give them two stands. I’m not saying there is zero but nothing suggests it’s significant, certainly not when compared to the income.

Celtic also didn’t sell out so then, away fans paying into the home stands is unbacked speculation. Something you seem to be accusing me of (even though I’ve given actual figures)

You have completely contradicted yourself. Oakfield model for determining how much money we get for given away fans is more reliable, then quoting the OK factor which will have impacted home crowds. Why is it okay to use that for the Celtic game but not consider other factors for the Rangers game and a low crowd?.. then go back to other factors like the weather for the next Celtic game. No consistency, just moving goalposts to support your agenda

Whether you like it or not my figures are backed up by

- actual away crowds

- the fact we haven’t seen a dip in season tickets we’ve seen a big uplift

- the fact we haven’t seen a dip in overall crowd numbers we’ve seen a big uplift.

If there is any truth that this decision is putting loyal fans off, how on earth do you justify that our crowds are the largest in average (by far) since we moved to this stadium? It boggles the mind.

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

28 minutes ago, Vambo57 said:

I don't want to get into this debate, but you are clearly choosing to ignore the fact that despite Celtic fans being given - and filling -2 stands, they still didn't beat the attendance at the Kilmarnock game. So overall the home fans count was significantly down for the Celtic game

It wasn't look at my figures again.

Celtic attendance 6,597. The number of seats in the two stands is 3,287 so even if they sold out (they didn't you just have to have been at the game to see there were 100s of empty seats. This is also proof we likely didn't have any/ many away fans in home end) there were 3,310 home fans there.

Kilmarnock attendance 4,458 with 1,214 away fans.

So Killie game home fans 3,244

So it wasn't significantly down, it had to be up.

Lord Pityme · April 10, 2019

2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

GLS in making this call said that numbers against Celtic and rangers were generally down based on previous games anyway regarding families and younger fans. Are you saying he lied?

What’s your response to my number backed evidence our mid week crowds against other teams this season are not considerably (or at all) higher than the Celtic game? You can’t deny it.

season ticket sales this season up, home attendance numbers up. Have you got actual evidence that more young fans are staying away this season than previous? Doesn’t sound like you do. I’ll say this again because it’s clearly not going in THE DROP IN FANS IS IN LINE WITH OTHER WEEKDAY GAMES

Answer the question... "does yir auntie huv bawz"?

it is shameful a club that picked up awards for being a Family Club closes its family stand, Panda club and all the pre match activities for youngsters because they make another tenner, just to facilitate racist, sectarian, hate filled violent behaviour. Absolutely shameful and your weasel words will never be able to deflect, or drown out the facts of that shameul decision.

i ask again since you believe you are the man with the answers, where are the next generation of saints fans goung to come from, given the club has turned its back on families, and kids, for a few dollars more..?

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

Yawn, here we go. Since a few people are refusing to accept the painfully obvious, without some figures to back it up, here they are. St Mirren have had seven mid-week home fixtures this season. The attendances for each are below. The away crowds are not available for all (either because I can't find them on twitter or they aren't on any other reports)

Spartans in June. Crowd 1,430 with 71 away fans. Doesn't tell us much

Celtic in September. Crowd 7,288, away not available but the min home crowd if Celtic sold out (which from memory they didn't) is 4,001. Crowd likely had a jump as OK first match but even at that, it supports that fans aren't staying away in mass numbers because of the two stand deal.

Motherwell in October. Crowd 4,001. Away not available but even if Motherwell took 500 (likely took more than this) the crowd would be at most 191 (not significant IMO) more than the last Celtic game

St Johnstone in December. Crowd 4,891. Away not available. Crowd probably seen a wee bump with it being boxing day (closer to a weekend fixture) and St Johnstone always take a small away crowd so I'd say we could have had between 4,200- 4,500 fans here. Probably not the best comparison for other mid-week fixtures, significantly higher than Killie, Celtic and Motherwell.

Motherwell in February. 4,383. Away not available. This was when they were on lightning form and I believe had won five or six on the bounce. Wouldn't be surprised if they had close to 1,000 fans here (they were in fine voice). Again home crowd likely similar to Killie, other Motherwell game and Celtic.

Kilmarnock in March, 4,458 and 1,214 away. A home crowd of 3,244

Celtic in April. 6,597. Away not available but a max again if they sold out (they didn't) 3,287. So min home crowd 3,310.

This is all the facts and available information in black and white. Yes some of the absolute specific numbers, I can't find but even individuals lacking basic common sense must surely agree I have not said anything outlandish in my away fan predictions.

People can do what they will with this information, they can use Oakfields home crowd details if they wish (And accept the other factors impacting home crowds), they can use day light saving (lol) bad weather, they can even use the bands that were playing at the Bungalow at the same time for all I care.

IMO none of the above suggests strong evidence that a significant number of fans do not go to St Mirren games vs the bigot brothers because of the current arrangement. Certainly not enough to make considerable inroads into my previously quoted income figures.

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

13 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Answer the question... "does yir auntie huv bawz"?

it is shameful a club that picked up awards for being a Family Club closes its family stand, Panda club and all the pre match activities for youngsters because they make another tenner, just to facilitate racist, sectarian, hate filled violent behaviour. Absolutely shameful and your weasel words will never be able to deflect, or drown out the facts of that shameul decision.

i ask again since you believe you are the man with the answers, where are the next generation of saints fans goung to come from, given the club has turned its back on families, and kids, for a few dollars more..?

I don't like the arrangement as much as the next fan but I am a realist, football is a money game whether we like it or not and I have evidenced beyond doubt that this arrangement generates significant money. It's not great but until we're filling it with St Mirren fans, I can see the justification.

They're coming through, all the other home games have activities for them, there numbers seem strong from where I sit. Season tickets are up, attendances are up. I'll ask again, where is your evidence less young fans are attending games this season?

Lord Pityme · April 10, 2019

4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I don't like the arrangement as much as the next fan but I am a realist, football is a money game whether we like it or not and I have evidenced beyond doubt that this arrangement generates significant money. It's not great but until we're filling it with St Mirren fans, I can see the justification.

They're coming through, all the other home games have activities for them, there numbers seem strong from where I sit. Season tickets are up, attendances are up. I'll ask again, where is your evidence less young fans are attending games this season?

No answer then, there have been considerably less family season tickets sold this season. Take a look at the family stand most games (other than bigot ones) its not even a third full now. Having been promoted on the back of welcoming families what a kick in the teeth to then kick them out. It is a financial and morally disastrous decision by short sighted fools.

Bud the Baker · April 10, 2019

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

There was snow on the hills for the Celtic game and it was bitter cold. Look at the Motherwell crowd as well which was weekday, I could probably look at other weekday games and I wager the home crowds won’t be massively more than the Celtic game.

You are again asking for an impossibility where I provide evidence of every single fans reason for going/ not going to games. My point is and always has been that we don’t see drop off considerable enough for the arrangement to impact other income

Everything you’ve said is subjective, my stats are actual home fan numbers against actual home fan numbers. There is nothing that suggests we see a much larger drop-off in fan numbers because of the decision to give them two stands. I’m not saying there is zero but nothing suggests it’s significant, certainly not when compared to the income.

Celtic also didn’t sell out so then, away fans paying into the home stands is unbacked speculation. Something you seem to be accusing me of (even though I’ve given actual figures)

You have completely contradicted yourself. Oakfield model for determining how much money we get for given away fans is more reliable, then quoting the OK factor which will have impacted home crowds. Why is it okay to use that for the Celtic game but not consider other factors for the Rangers game and a low crowd?.. then go back to other factors like the weather for the next Celtic game. No consistency, just moving goalposts to support your agenda

Whether you like it or not my figures are backed up by

- actual away crowds

- the fact we haven’t seen a dip in season tickets we’ve seen a big uplift

- the fact we haven’t seen a dip in overall crowd numbers we’ve seen a big uplift.

If there is any truth that this decision is putting loyal fans off, how on earth do you justify that our crowds are the largest in average (by far) since we moved to this stadium? It boggles the mind.

Well go ahead and do the other comparisons, back up your claims with evidence and don't just state your assumptions as if they were facts and remember I had to force you to find the figures for the Kilmarnock match of which you now seem so proud. :rolleyes:

I struggle to see the relevance of much of the your post - we're talking specifically about the three OF games and others that can be cited as having specific features similar to this ie playing both Kilmarnock & Celtic midweek.

Your figures for the Kilmarnock (game were interesting and give some credence to you argument but as I said they are not absolute proof and cannot ever be as the circumstances will never be identical which is what I meant by "each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances". I already said that I recall the away attendance being 3246 so by my reckoning 100 extra home fans for a vital home game played during BST and during the school holidays doesn't convince me your argument is correct.

FWIW I still find oaksoft's model on P13 more relevant than yours and was pointing out the OK factor clearly boosted the home attendance in this season's first home game against Celtic as it further proves my statement "each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances", I have no idea why the attendance for the Rangers game although a brief check on other events that day show there was a rugby international against Wales (testimonial for Dodie Weir) again a special set of circumstances. I'll say it again attendance at each game is affected by a different set of factors and your stat for the Kilmarnock game does not comprehensively prove your argument.

As long as you continue to post as if it is a game of brag (ie posting beyond what you have proved to be factual) you'll attract this sorta reply.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Bud the Baker

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

50 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

No answer then, there have been considerably less family season tickets sold this season. Take a look at the family stand most games (other than bigot ones) its not even a third full now. Having been promoted on the back of welcoming families what a kick in the teeth to then kick them out. It is a financial and morally disastrous decision by short sighted fools.

There have been considerably more season tickets overall sold. Unless you can prove we have shrinking numbers of young fans coming to games there’s no question to answer. The family stand is not any quieter than it has been previous seasons, that stand has never been jam packed.

W7 is also engaging fans of younger age groups into coming along, no one can deny it’s had a positive impact.

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

44 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Well go ahead and do the other comparisons, back up your claims with evidence and don't just state your assumptions as if they were facts and remember I had to force you to find the figures for the Kilmarnock match of which you now seem so proud.

I struggle to see the relevance of much of the your post - we're talking specifically about the three OF games and others that can be cited as having specific features similar to this ie playing both Kilmarnock & Celtic midweek.

Your figures for the Kilmarnock (game were interesting and give some credence to you argument but as I said they are not absolute proof and cannot ever be as the circumstances will never be identical which is what I meant by "each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances". I already said that I recall the away attendance being 3246 so by my reckoning 100 extra home fans for a vital home game played during BST and during the school holidays doesn't convince me your argument is correct.

FWIW I still find oaksoft's model on P13 more relevant than yours and was pointing out the OK factor clearly boosted the home attendance in this season's first home game against Celtic as it further proves my statement "each game is determined by a unique set of circumstances", I have no idea why the attendance for the Rangers game although a brief check on other events that day show there was a rugby international against Wales (testimonial for Dodie Weir) again a special set of circumstances. I'll say it again attendance at each game is affected by a different set of factors and your stat for the Kilmarnock game does not comprehensively prove your argument.

As long as you continue to post as if it is a game of brag (ie posting beyond what you have proved to be factual) you'll attract this sorta reply.

Again I thought it was common sense that Kilmarnock didn’t only take a couple hundred fans :lol: in looking out the figures all I’ve done is point out the bloody obvious imo.

Look further up, I broke down all seven of our weekday home games this season. Check the figures for yourself and tell me if you still think we’re seeing considerable drop off in these fixtures?

You’re again contradicting yourself. There are factors that impact all games yes but then to try and use those factors to suggest that crowds are noticeably down at OF games? What! So fans are staying away because of the two stand deal... but not when day light saving comes in :blink: it is a beyond ridiculous assumption that goes miles above any assumption I have made (Kilmarnock brought a good away crowd for example)

Is it me, have I got your point completely wrong here? you seem to be agreeing with me that crowds fluctuate because of circumstance but on the other hand still holding onto crowds being down because we’ve given them two stands? Which is it?

Bud the Baker · April 10, 2019

36 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Again I thought it was common sense that Kilmarnock didn’t only take a couple hundred fans in looking out the figures all I’ve done is point out the bloody obvious imo.

Look further up, I broke down all seven of our weekday home games this season. Check the figures for yourself and tell me if you still think we’re seeing considerable drop off in these fixtures?

You’re again contradicting yourself. There are factors that impact all games yes but then to try and use those factors to suggest that crowds are noticeably down at OF games? What! So fans are staying away because of the two stand deal... but not when day light saving comes in it is a beyond ridiculous assumption that goes miles above any assumption I have made (Kilmarnock brought a good away crowd for example)

Is it me, have I got your point completely wrong here? you seem to be agreeing with me that crowds fluctuate because of circumstance but on the other hand still holding onto crowds being down because we’ve given them two stands? Which is it?

Yes it is you - all I'm asking you to do is back up the statements you have made with facts - your claims, your responsibility to prove them - until you do you're just bullshitting!

Oaksoft has given figures that show the change in giving the OF the Family Stand as overflow instead of the W6/7 hasn't significantly increased overall attendance at the three OF matches. You've given the comparison between the home supports for the Killie & Celtic games, at my insistance :rolleyes: and they do back up your argument to an extent but as I've said there are other factors I've given that I think would more than account for this.

It's clear the home support is down for these matches that's not in dispute, GLS has admitted that as you've said on more than one occasion - we're disputing the reason for this and I still reckon the major circumstance behind them being down for these three games is because the OF have been given the Family Stand.

bazil85 · April 10, 2019

29 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Yes it is you - all I'm asking you to do is back up the statements you have made with facts - your claims, your responsibility to prove them - until you do you're just bullshitting!

Oaksoft has given figures that show the change in giving the OF the Family Stand as overflow instead of the W6/7 hasn't significantly increased overall attendance at the three OF matches. You've given the comparison between the home supports for the Killie & Celtic games, at my insistance and they do back up your argument to an extent but as I've said there are other factors I've given that I think would more than account for this.

It's clear the home support is down for these matches that's not in dispute, GLS has admitted that as you've said on more than one occasion - we're disputing the reason for this and I still reckon the major circumstance behind them being down for these three games is because the OF have been given the Family Stand.

I have given actual figures of what the income is comparing one stand to two stands. They have been VERY reserved figures and STILL show the income is easily one to two players. I also went a step further and gave figures for one stand against just W6/W7 as below.

Family stand 1,654 - 718 fans (W6 & 7 capacity). So they have roughly 936 extra seats for three games. 936 X 3 X £20 (allowing for concessions) is still a considerable £56,160. Take off expenses of say £9,000 for policing and stewarding extras (Policing is an average is £4,500 per game in Scotland and is weighted to bigger crowds so ours will be one of the lowest, also given we would still have extra police/ steward costs if it was one stand and gave them W6/7 this is likely way more than the extra cost). The income is still in the region of £47,160 + the extra catering income (our catering deal is based on likely footfall which goes up under this arrangement). You can deny this information if you want but them be the best you'll get. No one is going to be able to get the exact breakdown of catering or the exact number of concessions, you're demanding an impossibility from me.

These are all calculations that are relevant as the away crowds at these games are all very consistent (close to sell out), so unlike Oaksoft who by your own admission is looking at home crowds that'll fluctuate based on weather, DLS, league performance, manager, other sports events.

As for yet more evidence our crowds don't considerably fall for these games, here is what I posted earlier for all our mid-week games this season.

Since a few people are refusing to accept the painfully obvious, without some figures to back it up, here they are. St Mirren have had seven mid-week home fixtures this season. The attendances for each are below. The away crowds are not available for all (either because I can't find them on twitter or they aren't on any other reports)