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Lord Pityme

Kibble/SMiSA Partnership Proposal (Merged)

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You should also be clear LPM, that the £300k isn't going into the club or to SMISA. It's going into Gordon Scotts bank account. 
I am clear, there perhaps are a few within the support sho think Scott has put money into the club?
The fans and Smisa are the only ones who have, and continue to finance the club.
If over a quarter of it is sold to an outside organisation then, as many have indicated that Fan Financing will stop!

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20 minutes ago, portmahomack saint said:

So you disagree with it,  I rest my case

There's a difference between disagreeing with someones opinion and blindly refusing to acknowledge their right to have one. This is my point, if you think it's just about disagreeing, you haven't understood.

If you want some proof that there are people on here that don't believe everyone has a right to opinion, see Paul McGinn thread. 

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GLS doesn't own 71% of the shares to be able to sell them.
Of course it would need a vote, and to be clear at present Scott is obliged to sell to smisa as soon as they have the funds.
Smisa could apply for a funding loan, and even a grant to make that happen. The chairman doesn't want that to happen.

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2 minutes ago, Dickson said:
9 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Perhaps I AM being a bit dim here.......................BUT what doe sit matter re SMISA rules and regs, if GS decides to sell shares to Kibble, how does SMISA rules have any relevance, or am I REALLy being dim?

SMISA have a legally binding agreement with Gordon Scott that over the 10 year period SMISA would buy 71% of the shares in the club from Gordon Scott. 

SMISA then presented that plan to potential members and to existing members in the BtB campaign. 

The proposal now is that SMISA will only buy 51% of the shares with Kibble buying the rest from Gordon Scott. This means that SMISA will conclude their purchase of the shares required to become majority shareholders on the board earlier than initially proposed. However 51% of the shares is a different offer to what was made to the membership at the time so to me that is a change that should require an EGM and a 75% vote. 

Gordon Scott cannot do what he wants with the shares because he has committed to sell them to SMISA. SMISA would have to agree to release him from this commitment before he would be able to sell to Kibble. 

And as I've been saying all along on this thread - the question needs to be asked what is it that Kibble are being given for their money? 

OK, I can see why so many people are ranting and raving: however, how sure are you of the legally binding agreement? because if that is ironclad then the choice of whether Kibble comes in or not would appear to be down to SMISA.  

I do wonder exactly WHY Kibble want to buy shares without it giving them any measure of control.........seems odd, unless of course (as someone said) it prevents the 75% required to validate major changes of policy, although I can;'t for the life of me see where the benefit to them is.

The thing the winds me up is the level of abuse GS gets (in general) but specifically re the SMISA deal, I have never met the man; but given he stepped in when others didn't, to me it gives him a certain amount of latitude simply for that reason alone, and I think he is doing what he thinks is best for the club (which at this moment is still HIS club.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

I am clear, there perhaps are a few within the support sho think Scott has put money into the club?
The fans and Smisa are the only ones who have, and continue to finance the club.
If over a quarter of it is sold to an outside organisation then, as many have indicated that Fan Financing will stop!

Gordon Scott has agreed to a 10 year deal to move SMFC to fan ownership, using his own cash without a penny personal profit. Lost interest/ investment capability alone, he'll be taking a bigger financial hit than any other single person on the deal. If this arrangement passes and BTB completes in five years instead of 10, his lost interest will be lessened but that fact will remain the same. 

Is there a single other person in the world that would commit to that kind of money and time to fund a fan buyout for St Mirren and not take a penny personal gain? Given the time the club was up for sale for, I'd say not. 

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I remember that being asked. He pretty much said he'd keep them though suggested that SMISA might want to buy all shares including the ones with the fans. He said that would be down to SMISA to vote on.

71%
 
GLS was keeping 8% back in the original proposal. Something which I questioned at the time. Now looks like his 8% is on the table for kibble. 

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Here's a quote from scoop1987/GLS shutup.gif back in 2011 when "The Consortium" froze him out of their deal to sell the club, it's pretty clear he's always had one eye on getting his money back, not that I blame him, however LPM is correct that when the dust settles the only people who will have put money into the club (net) are the fans.

Quote

I am not sure if this is already in the public domain but if I was Ken Mcgoech or Gordon Scott I would be well pissed off!

The following is a breakdown of where the £2million selling price would have went in 2008 and as of todays date.

2008

Stuart Gilmour 24,259 shares £403,912

George Cambell 21,209 shares £353,129

Alan Marshall 7,670 shares £127,705

Evelyn Purvis 12,842 shares £213,479

Brian McAusland 21,722 shares £361,671

Gordon Scott 15,224 shares £253,479

Ken McGeoch 17,154 shares £285,614

In late 2008 George Cambell bought 4,284 additional shares and Brian McAusland bought 5,701 shares. This allowed them to sell a controlling interest in the club without including Scott and McGeoch thus ignoring the gentlemens agreement between all board members that if they ever sold they would sell as a group.

 

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But that would be all his shares (except the 8% previously mentioned, apparently) not just the 27.5%.  My point was that there is no way GLS would agree to sell 27.5% to SMiSA at this time, unless the agreement was changed to ensure that SMiSA would buy the rest later, so it would really be pointless for someone to propose it as suggested.
The point is a couple of posters have suggested that Scott might need £300k now. If so then the only body he should be selling to, and who could pay for it if the membership agree is Smisa.
Why sell over a quarter of the club you vowed would be fan owned to another business?
The reasons given dont make sense. Kibble could achieve all the aims it states in the proposal and save itself £300k in the process.

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1 minute ago, Bud the Baker said:

Here's a quote from scoop1987/GLS shutup.gif back in 2011 when "The Consortium" froze him out of their deal to sell the club, it's pretty clear he's always had one eye on getting his money back, not that I blame him, however LPM is correct that when the dust settles the only people who will have put money into the club (net) are the fans.

 

Do you think lost income through investment and interest shouldn't be factored in to his investment in the club? For me this is a curious (and a wee bit selfish) point that some fans bring up. What's the expectation, that he puts in money on top of the lump sum that's allowed us to buy the club? If so, would we grudge him taking a profit out the club like many other football chairman in the world?

GLS has done a fantastic and (financially) self-less thing for our football club, people should not lose sight of that. 

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4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Do you think lost income through investment and interest shouldn't be factored in to his investment in the club? For me this is a curious (and a wee bit selfish) point that some fans bring up. What's the expectation, that he puts in money on top of the lump sum that's allowed us to buy the club? If so, would we grudge him taking a profit out the club like many other football chairman in the world?

GLS has done a fantastic and (financially) self-less thing for our football club, people should not lose sight of that. 

Had SMISA bought the 50 odd % from the consortium then GLS shares were worthless. Id say its not entirely self less what he's done. More protecting his initial Investment. 

Not getting into a debate over the rights or wrongs of that. Just saying. 

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37 minutes ago, slapsalmon said:

71%

 

GLS was keeping 8% back in the original proposal. Something which I questioned at the time. Now looks like his 8% is on the table for kibble. 

I believe it was his intention all along to get his original “investment” back.

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1 minute ago, slapsalmon said:

Had SMISA bought the 50 odd % from the consortium then GLS shares were worthless. Id say its not entirely self less what he's done. More protecting his initial Investment. 

Not getting into a debate over the rights or wrongs of that. Just saying. 

Selfless in a purely financial sense, as in return on his financial investment. I’m sure there are other reasons for him doing it but I still think it’s pretty poor people coining this as he isn’t losing any money/ investing in the club. 

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Just now, bazil85 said:

Selfless in a purely financial sense, as in return on his financial investment. I’m sure there are other reasons for him doing it but I still think it’s pretty poor people coining this as he isn’t losing any money/ investing in the club. 

It's not self less financially though. As by going through with BtB he got back his outlay for the original shares which he may never have got back otherwise. Shrewd probably, selfless I wouldn't say so. 

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39 minutes ago, Dickson said:

The SMISA proposal also states that there would be a new legal agreement drawn up if Kibble buy the shares. 

And I wonder who will be expected to foot the bill for that.....

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Just now, slapsalmon said:

It's not self less financially though. As by going through with BtB he got back his outlay for the original shares which he may never have got back otherwise. Shrewd probably, selfless I wouldn't say so. 

I don’t think that negates the (speculative) lost income, not even close TBH. financially speaking he would have made more on his chunk of money by not doing this deal. putting the money in a bank account/ investing, especially given his business history, would return more money to him than what he’s done to support buying SMFC for the fans. We are talking a very big chunk of money not making any money for a pretty long period of time. 

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I don’t think that negates the (speculative) lost income, not even close TBH. financially speaking he would have made more on his chunk of money by not doing this deal. putting the money in a bank account/ investing, especially given his business history, would return more money to him than what he’s done to support buying SMFC for the fans. We are talking a very big chunk of money not making any money for a pretty long period of time. 
Just like the smisa membership then..?
Oh sorry they don't get and don't want their money back, and they are putting in hundreds of thousands more!

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Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, that's irrelevant to my point.
 
Maybe Kibble could achieve all their aims without buying shares but maybe there is a benefit for them to do so - I would assume that there is, or they wouldn't be doing it.  That, though, does not necessarily mean that the benefit to them would be detrimental to SMFC, it could also be beneficial or neutral to SMFC.
 
As I have said from the start of this, there are questions that need to be asked and, depending on the answers, an informed decision can be taken by those voting.
 
Claiming things, one way or the other, without getting answers to the relevant questions first is just scaremongering or "fanboying", depending on your stance.


If you are referring to me? I'd be interested to see what these errant claims are?

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1 hour ago, Dickson said:

So a change to the whole offer to the membership of SMISA is an "ordinary resolution"? 

That doesn't seem constitutional to me. 

Without a doubt this proposal is is an extraordinary one that requires a 75% Majority vote to pass.

I’m sure all the relevant parties know this, but are hoping that no one speaks out.

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35 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Do you think lost income through investment and interest shouldn't be factored in to his investment in the club? For me this is a curious (and a wee bit selfish) point that some fans bring up. What's the expectation, that he puts in money on top of the lump sum that's allowed us to buy the club? If so, would we grudge him taking a profit out the club like many other football chairman in the world?

GLS has done a fantastic and (financially) self-less thing for our football club, people should not lose sight of that. 

Just pointing out that he's been looking to get his money back for over 10 years now and whinged about being cut out of a previous deal under an alias on this Forum. Since 2016 he's had the privilege & associated perks of running the club for no net cost (which I already mentioned :rolleyes:) - factor that in and I don't think he's owed anything other than thanks. I've said earlier that IMO selling 27.5% to Kibble is an improvement on the current deal for the ordinary fan & let's face it our Chairman too but he is the one driving the deal to complete fan ownership 5 years earlier than previously planned so I'm not going to be forced into misplaced admiration of GLS.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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14 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Just like the smisa membership then..?
Oh sorry they don't get and don't want their money back, and they are putting in hundreds of thousands more!

Yep all in the same boat and we all do it for the love of our football club. The return, just like buying a football ticket is on the park & how we move the club forward. 
 

people making out SMISA members are taking a hit & GLS isn’t are ignoring the money he could make from that lump sum & it’s far more than anyone could make from £25 a month. 

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6 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Just pointing out that he's been looking to get his money back for over 10 years now and whinged about it being cut out of a previous deal under an alias on this Forum. Since 2016 he's had the privilege & associated perks of running the club for no net cost (which I already mentioned :rolleyes:) - factor that in and I don't think he's owed anything other than thanks. I've said earlier that IMO selling 27.5% to Kibble is an improvement on the current deal for the ordinary fan & more relevantly our Chairman too since he is the one driving the deal to complete fan ownership 5 years earlier than previously planned so I'm not going to be forced into misplaced admiration of GLS.

Good thing he isn’t wanting anything other than a thanks then isn’t it? Would be well within his right to propose a deal that would see a return for that size of investment, as would anyone else.
He hasn’t, he’s stumped up out of his love for the club. What a guy 👍

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2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

75% of all members IMO would just be putting in barriers to change. It’s been shown that there’s a pool of members that just want to pay their money & don’t really Want to engage on voting. 

What a hypocrite you are.

You were all for 66% of the vote for the £2 Pot Spend Proposal to be successful.

At last years SMISA AGM, my proposal put to the SMISA membership required (under SMISA' rules) two thirds of the vote for the "Save the Pot" option to get added to all votes. On the day, of those that voted, it got about 30%. There were about 70% of the vote against it.

Basil, will no doubt trip over himself to remind us that, of the total membership, only about 1% voted for it. However, there was only 2% of the vote voted against it.

That proposal was insignificant in comparison to the proposal of selling 27% of St Mirren shares to Kibble for which, the SMISA membership is being asked to vote on and sanction the breaking of the current agreement.

SMISA must be consistent in their application of their rules.

SMISA has a responsibility to adhere to their own rules and that is two thirds of the vote for any proposal to be passed.

 

 

Edited by Kombibuddie
Figures correction

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What a hypocrite you are.
You were all for 75% of the vote for the £2 Pot Spend Proposal to be successful.
At last years SMISA AGM, my proposal put to the SMISA membership required (under SMISA' rules) 75% of the vote for the "Save the Pot" option to get added to all votes. On the day, of those that voted, it got about 30%. There were about 70% of the vote against it.
Basil, will no doubt trip over himself to remind us that, of the total membership, only about 1% voted for it. However, there was only 2% of the vote voted against it.
That proposal was insignificant in comparison to the proposal of selling 27% of St Mirren shares to Kibble for which, the SMISA membership is being asked to vote on and sanction the breaking of the current agreement.
SMISA must be consistent in their application of their rules.
SMISA has a responsibility to adhere to their own rules and that is 75% of the vote for any proposal to be passed.
Careful... he only like his versions of democracy, and rule adherence.

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