Coronavirus

[djchapsticks]

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

How deep you must have dug to find that dogs dinner of a report. Meanwhile the overwhelming consensus is no lockdown would have cost lives, overwhelmed the NHS & been catastrophic for the nations health in general. 

I'd implore you to open your eyes. The nation's health is in a dreadful state despite lockdown.

[djchapsticks]

2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Far more testing now than this time last year, so that parameter isn’t comparable. 

They absolutely are comparable unless you are seriously trying to suggest that instead of 1000 cases a day at this time last year, there was massive underreporting due to lower test numbers and there were actually 60,000 a day.

As all things equal, that's how many cases you'd need to be seeing to hit the number of daily deaths we were seeing last year compared to this year.

You don't seem to be very willing to accept that the vaccines are working and are well on the way to almost singly-handedly ending this pandemic.

[faraway saint]

6 hours ago, djchapsticks said:

They absolutely are comparable unless you are seriously trying to suggest that instead of 1000 cases a day at this time last year, there was massive underreporting due to lower test numbers and there were actually 60,000 a day.

As all things equal, that's how many cases you'd need to be seeing to hit the number of daily deaths we were seeing last year compared to this year.

You don't seem to be very willing to accept that the vaccines are working and are well on the way to almost singly-handedly ending this pandemic.

He has been sitting on the negative side of the fence since day one and takes great pleasure when things take a turn for the worse.

He wasn't called the forum ghoul for nothing last year. 

[faraway saint]

Is this @oaksoft? 

[bazil85]

8 hours ago, djchapsticks said:

I'd implore you to open your eyes. The nation's health is in a dreadful state despite lockdown.

I completely agree with that but I’m talking about lockdown impacts with the post. 

[bazil85]

8 hours ago, djchapsticks said:

They absolutely are comparable unless you are seriously trying to suggest that instead of 1000 cases a day at this time last year, there was massive underreporting due to lower test numbers and there were actually 60,000 a day.

As all things equal, that's how many cases you'd need to be seeing to hit the number of daily deaths we were seeing last year compared to this year.

You don't seem to be very willing to accept that the vaccines are working and are well on the way to almost singly-handedly ending this pandemic.

That’s not what I am saying at all, I have said the vaccines absolutely are looking positive right now. The point from FS (who has sadly started crying into his ignore function instead of engaging in actual conversation) was we should not be cautious or worried AT ALL because of the vaccine. Given the last 18 months I feel a level of concern and caution is warranted. This world isn’t all sunshine & rainbows.

Also, we won’t know for sure what levels of infection there were early in the pandemic because we weren’t testing on close to the same scale.

Edit: as for the ‘forum ghoul’ reference. Seem to remember that was used instead of a certain person admitting I was right & they were wrong. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by bazil85

[oaksoft]

19 hours ago, bazil85 said:

I still really worry about the coming autumn/winter and what will happen. Cases are still high in many parts of the world and more and more variants will likely crack on.

Can we really have a full winter more or less restriction free if these trends continue? I get we have to put some trust in the vaccine program including any yearly boosters but it is hard to picture a fully happy path out of a Covid restricted country. 

Baz, you have been shitting your pants over this for more than a year now.

I think you're just going to have to find a way of coping with your fear because unless some new variant appears which evades our vaccines or hospitalisations and deaths start rising, we'll be moving towards removing all restrictions within the next few weeks.

The country is about to move on wther you are ready or not.

Edited June 29, 2021 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

11 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Far more testing now than this time last year, so that parameter isn’t comparable. 

Another reason why the number of cases doesn't really matter.

What counts is hospitalisations and deaths.

If we published daily flu cases people would be shocked to see the numbers.

[oaksoft]

45 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I completely agree with that but I’m talking about lockdown impacts with the post. 

There's a substantial number of families of cancer victims out there who would disagree with your confident assertion that lockdowns caused no deaths.

[bazil85]

15 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Baz, you have been shitting your pants over this for more than a year now.

I think you're just going to have to find a way of coping with your fear because unless some new variant appears which evades our vaccines or hospitalisations and deaths start rising, we'll be moving towards removing all restrictions within the next few weeks.

The country is about to move on wther you are ready or not.

As we all should have been, in June 2021 we can look back and see concerns on Coronavirus were 100% warranted & likely that our response wasn't as swift and effective as it could have been. . 

My point remains, does that mean we go forward with absolutely no caution or concern? That would be madness given how often the pandemic has pegged us back. I do hope we are out of the woods & there's plenty to be positive about regarding the vaccine but that doesn't mean it's wrong to show any reservation at all. 

Not the point I am making (yet again) I am only talking about concerns & worries which sadly there hasn't been enough of from decision makers in this world over the pandemic. 

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Another reason why the number of cases doesn't really matter.

What counts is hospitalisations and deaths.

If we published daily flu cases people would be shocked to see the numbers.

Completely agree, my point is it isn't really comparable on last years figures, we are at a different stage of tackling this virus. 

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

There's a substantial number of families of cancer victims out there who would disagree with your confident assertion that lockdowns caused no deaths.

That's just a lie to claim that, it's never once been what I've said. There was no everyone lives solution regarding pandemics and lockdown. Lockdown was the best of tough options, it seems beyond reasonable doubt that the various lockdowns stopped the NHS from being overwhelmed and this would have likely had a bigger impact on "cancer victims" and many others. 

I've tried to respond as balanced and level as I can, I would hope you would take it in such a manner but you're welcome to have a similar level of breakdown to our ignore buddie. 😅

[oaksoft]

9 hours ago, bazil85 said:

My point remains, does that mean we go forward with absolutely no caution or concern? That would be madness given how often the pandemic has pegged us back.

 

It doesn't matter what any of us think.

Barring a disaster, we're opening back up fully within weeks.

I'm simply saying that you and the others who have let fear dominate your life over the last year are going to have to find a way to cope.

Edited June 29, 2021 by oaksoft

[bazil85]

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It doesn't matter what any of us think.

Barring a disaster, we're opening back up fully within weeks.

I'm simply saying that you and the others who have let fear dominate your life over the last year are going to have to find a way to cope.

This is a discussing thread Oaks. We’ve had over 500 pages of people discussing the topic. I’m giving my view that I don’t think it’s unthinkable to show concern going forward.
 

It’s been absolutely the right approach to date. People like yourself would have had ‘all’ restrictions lifted in autumn last year, it would have been catastrophic. 
 

As for me finding a ‘way to cope’ if we continue down this path I will be absolutely fine. If things do take a significant turn over the coming months, I will not be surprised if we return to restrictions, that’s where my concern sits.

I’m actually quite surprised given the pandemic, some are not accepting there is still cause to worry about the future. Very strange IMO.  

[Cookie Monster]

It doesn't matter what any of us think.
Barring a disaster, we're opening back up fully within weeks.
I'm simply saying that you and the others who have let fear dominate your life over the last year are going to have to find a way to cope.

I'm definitely on the side of caution but know we're going to be opening up a lot more as you say in weeks.

As long as the numbers of folk in hospital, ICU and deaths remain as low then we can move on with care and precautions for those who are still vulnerable.

IE, public transport wear a face covering.

[Callum Gilhooley]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

It doesn't matter what any of us think.

Barring a disaster, we're opening back up fully within weeks.

I'm simply saying that you and the others who have let fear dominate your life over the last year are going to have to find a way to cope.

Fed up to the back teeth with it. 

A virologist on Beeb 4 said last week we need to learn to live with it and can’t keep running down a rabbit hole with every new variant.  Prof Hugh Pennington said similar ( paraphrasing here: we need to get back to normal now that majority are vaccinated) although some restrictions such as masks on public transport should remain for now.

it’s time to get our lives back to something resembling normality . 

 

 

[oaksoft]

5 hours ago, bazil85 said:

This is a discussing thread Oaks. We’ve had over 500 pages of people discussing the topic. I’m giving my view that I don’t think it’s unthinkable to show concern going forward.
 

It’s been absolutely the right approach to date. People like yourself would have had ‘all’ restrictions lifted in autumn last year, it would have been catastrophic. 
 

As for me finding a ‘way to cope’ if we continue down this path I will be absolutely fine. If things do take a significant turn over the coming months, I will not be surprised if we return to restrictions, that’s where my concern sits.

I’m actually quite surprised given the pandemic, some are not accepting there is still cause to worry about the future. Very strange IMO.  

 

3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I'm definitely on the side of caution but know we're going to be opening up a lot more as you say in weeks.

As long as the numbers of folk in hospital, ICU and deaths remain as low then we can move on with care and precautions for those who are still vulnerable.

IE, public transport wear a face covering.

Cookie has it correct here to an extent baz.

The only thing which matters is deaths and hospitalisations. That's the only thing which has ever mattered and we've had almost nobody in hospital or dying from this for the vast majority of the last year. That's the source of frustration. How many cancer patient are we going to tolerate being sacrificed for nothing?

We've had all these restrictions for well over a year now, we've had something around 90% compliance and we are still seeing massive spikes in cases so clearly none of this is working.

We are very fortunate to have vaccines because herd immunity was absolutely our only other practical alternative. So we should all be grateful for that.

Yes I would have opened up in May last year and I wouldn't have re-introduced any restrictions unless deaths and hospitalisations put the NHS at risk.

I certainly wouldn't have introduced a legal requirement to wear a face nappy and then deliberately lie to people that it was to keep them safe rather than as a simple and effective reminder to everyone to keep the pandemic in mind. That was a quite unforgiveable example of treating people in the country like idiotic children. I really don't understand why people in charge continually do that.

Anyway, f**k it. It looks like we're pretty much at the end point now. We'll live with covid and take the consequences as part of being a free society.

Cookie, there is no way masking in public will remain a permanent thing.

Edited June 30, 2021 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, Callum Gilhooley said:

Fed up to the back teeth with it. 

A virologist on Beeb 4 said last week we need to learn to live with it and can’t keep running down a rabbit hole with every new variant.  Prof Hugh Pennington said similar ( paraphrasing here: we need to get back to normal now that majority are vaccinated) although some restrictions such as masks on public transport should remain for now.

it’s time to get our lives back to something resembling normality . 

 

 

As long as they make masks a recommended thing that won't be an issue going forwards.

It can't stay legally enforceable for much longer.

Short of mass civil disobedience, it might need us to be isolated amongst other western countries who are not forcing their populations to wear useless face nappies to force the issue.
BUT, we do like to follow orders in this country so who knows.

Edited June 30, 2021 by oaksoft

[Cookie Monster]

Cookie, there is no way masking in public will remain a permanent thing.

I can see it staying in the example i gave for a few months yet. Likewise screen's at shops for staff protection but maybe not masks for shoppers.

[bazil85]

7 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 

Cookie has it correct here to an extent baz.

The only thing which matters is deaths and hospitalisations. That's the only thing which has ever mattered and we've had almost nobody in hospital or dying from this for the vast majority of the last year. That's the source of frustration. How many cancer patient are we going to tolerate being sacrificed for nothing?

We've had all these restrictions for well over a year now, we've had something around 90% compliance and we are still seeing massive spikes in cases so clearly none of this is working.

We are very fortunate to have vaccines because herd immunity was absolutely our only other practical alternative. So we should all be grateful for that.

Yes I would have opened up in May last year and I wouldn't have re-introduced any restrictions unless deaths and hospitalisations put the NHS at risk.

I certainly wouldn't have introduced a legal requirement to wear a face nappy and then deliberately lie to people that it was to keep them safe rather than as a simple and effective reminder to everyone to keep the pandemic in mind. That was a quite unforgiveable example of treating people in the country like idiotic children. I really don't understand why people in charge continually do that.

Anyway, f**k it. It looks like we're pretty much at the end point now. We'll live with covid and take the consequences as part of being a free society.

Cookie, there is no way masking in public will remain a permanent thing.

There’s a few different points creeping into the one I made that kicked this portion off. I am glad though you accept, just as me & Cookie have said, caution on the future is absolutely understandable given the past… others like our wee pal hiding in the ignore section can’t accept that view. 
 

As for the rest of your post, I agree things look good now & continue to get better. I don’t agree in jumping the gun lifting restrictions as it seems pretty clear looking at hospitalisation earlier this year & many times last year, it would have overwhelmingly the NHS & not helped cancer & other patients had ‘all’ restrictions been removed. Given the development of the vaccine, I feel we did the right thing in restricting lives, for me though personally, we should have done it longer & more restricted at times. 
 

You seem to contradict yourself, 90% adherence & the virus being controlled for large parts. This is largely because of strict lockdown & restrictions. I feel this is beyond any reasonable doubt. You don’t get next to no hospital admissions & all the knock on impacts if the country was operating as normal. We can see that in other countries that haven’t had as strict restrictions. 
 

We are now at a stage where the vaccine rollout is replacing the need for restrictions (and hopefully it continues without any further bumps on the road). It’s a matter of opinion but my view, which ties to the scientific advice of the four home nations is slow & steady is absolutely correct as we vaccinate more & more people. 
 

As for the lifting restrictions in May last year, we would have just followed the same path but with far more people dying & a quicker return to restrictions. There is no way we could have went restriction free through the winter & handled cancer & other patient numbers in the NHS. For one point, they were often very high risk. Putting them in hospitals riddled with Covid patients & no restrictions would have very likely been death sentences for many, many more people. 
 

I agree the benefits in mask wearing were overshot however you again highlight a bit of a contradictory point here. If they help remind the severity of the virus & encourage adherence to some other points such as social distancing, they’ve served a benefit. Like it or not, large portions of this society do need treated like children. 

Let’s hope we are at an end point, contrary to popular belief, having concern & worry is not the same thing as wanting things to go wrong. Time will tell if we are out of the woods & living with this or if more restriction is deemed necessary. 

I agree, masks will go, eventually. 

[beyond our ken]

On 6/28/2021 at 6:00 PM, djchapsticks said:

Misleading language. 

Marr was most certainly not - despite his assertions - 'seriously ill' if he was no more serious than pottering about the house feeling shite and he has the fact he was vaccinated twice to thank for this. 

The vaccines are working wonderfully, keeping serious cases and deaths comparatively low whilst cases rise massively. People should feel safer against this disease than they have at any point prior through this pandemic as the vaccines are absolutely proving their worth.

i wonder what the chances of a vaccine-defeating variant appearing are in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated,   Probably no-one knows thus far but that must be a worry and a good reason to be continuing with sensible precautions.

In the far-east, they know a thing or two more than us about living with serious infectious respiratory illness and the wearing of masks is much more prevalent in many cities there

[bazil85]

3 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

i wonder what the chances of a vaccine-defeating variant appearing are in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated,   Probably no-one knows thus far but that must be a worry and a good reason to be continuing with sensible precautions.

In the far-east, they know a thing or two more than us about living with serious infectious respiratory illness and the wearing of masks is much more prevalent in many cities there

One of my worries is the virus spreading in countries with quite low vaccination rates. If we look at India as an example, is there the risk that large infection rates offers more chances for variants to evolve that become more successfully transmissible in vaccinated populations who are mixing more? For example a variant that still brings out more severe symptoms and allows it to pass from person to person despite the vaccination. Such a variant could take hold quickly as the world opens up. 

I feel it is completely acceptable to be concerned and worried when the world is still in the clutches of a pandemic, can't get my head around why people don't think that's a fair view. 

[beyond our ken]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:23 PM, Sue Denim said:

1,356 officially recorded deaths in the U.K. alone

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

It’s thought that only 5% of adverse events are actually reported.

They attempt to brush it under the carpet by saying they were old, ill, vulnerable anyway and it’s just a coincidence that they died after getting the vaccine.

Most of the excess deaths over the winter were vaccine deaths

Pfizer set to make £100 billion from vaccines. The rich are well and truly eating the poor 

Its going to be the biggest scandal in history

 

 

The yellow card system is dependent on patients reporting suspected adverse events to a health professional, as such it is only there to capture what information it can and is never considered a definitive account.  Adverse events are pretty clearly defined and specific to any medicine, many people may be classing themselves as suffering from an AV when they are really only experiencing common side effects.  My wife dealt with an old dear who was worried about getting her second jab of Astra-Z because she had a blood clot from the first one, turns out she had previously had a mild stroke and experienced similar symptoms post-vaccine and was adamant it was a clot.  This despite her blood tests and scans at hospital all being clear and her being advise that it was probably stress from vaccine anxiety + common side effects .  She still refused her AZ (despite showing up for her appointment??) and had to be referred back to her GP as she failed to convince anyone at the centre that there was evidence of a vaccine-related AV.  Apparently similar events happen every week.

Interesting to see that most of the deaths over the winter were "vaccine deaths" as we only vaccinated in substantial numbers from mid-january and that included the ongoing campaign to vaccinate the health and care workers first!  Are you saying that the NHS workforce was decimated by vaccine deaths over the winter?

[oaksoft]

5 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

I can see it staying in the example i gave for a few months yet. Likewise screen's at shops for staff protection but maybe not masks for shoppers.
 

I'm not really keeping up with this stuff anymore but I thought they were getting rid of screens because they prevented good ventilation?

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

There’s a few different points creeping into the one I made that kicked this portion off. I am glad though you accept, just as me & Cookie have said, caution on the future is absolutely understandable given the past… others like our wee pal hiding in the ignore section can’t accept that view. 
 

I certainly did not say that.

 

[bazil85]

17 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I certainly did not say that.

 

"Cookie has it correct here to an extent baz."

Was that not what this referenced to? Process of elimation for me given what he mentioned in his post & you not agreeing on face covering going forward "care and caution"

So you don't think anyone should approach the future of this virus with concern & caution given the last 18+ months? Your opinion but absolute madness. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by bazil85

[djchapsticks]

1 hour ago, beyond our ken said:

i wonder what the chances of a vaccine-defeating variant appearing are in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated,   Probably no-one knows thus far but that must be a worry and a good reason to be continuing with sensible precautions.

In the far-east, they know a thing or two more than us about living with serious infectious respiratory illness and the wearing of masks is much more prevalent in many cities there

Honestly? Non-existent.

A single virus mutation can change a virus by an absolute maximum of 0.3%, most mutations are significantly less than even this. It's akin to getting a spot on your face - you still recognise the face as the same but with a minor blemish.

Vaccine escape occurs when a virus is allowed to mutate several times over the course of months, years or decades and the vaccine is not updated to counteract and respond to this. Even then, vaccine escape does not mean vaccine resistant. Efficacy rates may well drop in instances but the vaccine is still fighting the same virus at the end of the day...it doesn't mutate into a whole new virus in spite of some of the absolutely ludicrous statements indicating as such at the turn of the year with regards to the Kent variant from professional people who should and do know better.

Also, as we know that labs are constantly working to tweak covid vaccines to keep up with any variants of concern, the chances of a virus mutating to something that 100% dodges vaccines, quite simply is not going to happen. 

Viruses also generally mutate to become more infectious and less deadly and preliminary German reports seem to suggest that although the delta variant is approx. 40% more transmittable, primary data shows it's up to 75% less deadly. This follows all known rules of virus mutation in history and is something that significantly is rarely, if ever, mentioned by the media.