Bud the Baker Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) I'm kinda torn because as someone who spent a lot of his teenage years in choirs I liked The B&W Minstrels - are they any worse than KISS, is it just a uniform? Edited June 11, 2020 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: I'm kinda torn because as someone who spent a lot of his teenage years in choirs I liked The B&W Minstrels - are they any worse than KISS, is it just a uniform? I, and a few others, have said in the other thread, it's context. The B&W Minstrels were of their time, in my innocence it was just as you suggest with Kiss, make up. THAT was a different era, did it help where we are today, probably not as it would cement the stereotypical view of coloured people. It's all about evolving, change can be both good and bad. The whole current furore, while encouraging debate, is also looking like getting out of hand with the removal of TV programmes and movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: I'm kinda torn because as someone who spent a lot of his teenage years in choirs I liked The B&W Minstrels - are they any worse than KISS, is it just a uniform? Enjoyed them. Liked the Gollywog on Jam and thought nothing more of it... But that was maybe the issue at the time.. Unconscious Racism. What happened in the USA was conscious and rooted in the establishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 45 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: I'm kinda torn because as someone who spent a lot of his teenage years in choirs I liked The B&W Minstrels - are they any worse than KISS, is it just a uniform? Oh, to answer your question..........................unsure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 50 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: I'm kinda torn because as someone who spent a lot of his teenage years in choirs I liked The B&W Minstrels - are they any worse than KISS, is it just a uniform? Not just a uniform. it was a continuation of a demeaning stereotype concocted in the USA for white amusement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 47 minutes ago, faraway saint said: I, and a few others, have said in the other thread, it's context. The B&W Minstrels were of their time, in my innocence it was just as you suggest with Kiss, make up. THAT was a different era, did it help where we are today, probably not as it would cement the stereotypical view of coloured people. It's all about evolving, change can be both good and bad. The whole current furore, while encouraging debate, is also looking like getting out of hand with the removal of TV programmes and movies. What would you know about evolution? You're at least two evolutionary steps behind everyone else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Will Superfan derek be allowed to use the face paints again. [emoji852] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 View from a couple of black people............................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, faraway saint said: View from a couple of black people............................... I like these two brilliant dudes. Nailed it perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Now following and subscribing to The Hodge Twins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsidebud Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Its all about intent for me. If the intent is racist, its racist. For example Papa Lazarou from League of Gentlemen is, in my opinion not racist. While Im not saying its impossible to be offensive, I think that, as the saying goes, in the vast majority of cases offence can only be taken - not given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 The Socialist Worker mob on here get offended at most things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, southsidebud said: Its all about intent for me. If the intent is racist, its racist. For example Papa Lazarou from League of Gentlemen is, in my opinion not racist. While Im not saying its impossible to be offensive, I think that, as the saying goes, in the vast majority of cases offence can only be taken - not given. If we needed proof that this issue is out of hand................. Ant & Dec had dressed as Jamaican women many years ago for a show, this has ow been removed. So, with no intent, no "racist" comments, simply by using make up, it's seen as offensive. I'm in trouble, my tans put me firmly in the coloured bracket. FFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsidebud Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, faraway saint said: If we needed proof that this issue is out of hand................. Ant & Dec had dressed as Jamaican women many years ago for a show, this has ow been removed. So, with no intent, no "racist" comments, simply by using make up, it's seen as offensive. I'm in trouble, my tans put me firmly in the coloured bracket. FFS. ...Racist. 😃😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, southsidebud said: ...Racist. 😃😆 Sorry............I once ordered a black and tan at a bar...................my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, southsidebud said: Its all about intent for me. If the intent is racist, its racist. For example Papa Lazarou from League of Gentlemen is, in my opinion not racist. While Im not saying its impossible to be offensive, I think that, as the saying goes, in the vast majority of cases offence can only be taken - not given. I see you logic. Intent implies that the perpetrator has knowledge of the Impact their actions will have and consciously makes the decision to go ahead. That is clear cut. But there is also unconscious Racism where offence is given but the person involved had not intended harm. Offence is still taken. An example of this for me has already been mentioned... Black and White Minstrel Show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsidebud Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, St.Ricky said: I see you logic. Intent implies that the perpetrator has knowledge of the Impact their actions will have and consciously makes the decision to go ahead. That is clear cut. But there is also unconscious Racism where offence is given but the person involved had not intended harm. Offence is still taken. An example of this for me has already been mentioned... Black and White Minstrel Show. I think that unintentional /ignorant racism should not give offence - due to lack of said intent. I accept that this may be easier said than done, depending on the form it takes. Like was said earlier, its all about context. Plenty of comedy pokes fun at characteristics that I see in myself (physical or cultural) - I don't take offence at those as they are not directed at me. Of course - blatant intentional racism - targeting groups of society, exemplified by the George Floyd outrage - should be attacked and addressed without mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Sums it up, snowflakes that get offended should pop along to the "get a Life" shop................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 26 minutes ago, southsidebud said: I think that unintentional /ignorant racism should not give offence - due to lack of said intent. I accept that this may be easier said than done, depending on the form it takes. Like was said earlier, its all about context. Plenty of comedy pokes fun at characteristics that I see in myself (physical or cultural) - I don't take offence at those as they are not directed at me. Of course - blatant intentional racism - targeting groups of society, exemplified by the George Floyd outrage - should be attacked and addressed without mercy. I agree with your sentiment that if no harm was knowingly done then no offence might be expected to be taken but it's not how it works imo. It's relatively easy to give offence without knowing it when crossing cultural divides. Race is not just about colour. It is also about culture. I was lucky enough to do a lot of work overseas where it was vital to pick up the non verbal, non written down stuff to avoid offence whilst also offering constructive input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 The willingness of some people to actively look to be offended is a major problem in today's society. The current furore about police brutality is feeding this to such an extent the easily offended are having a great time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Those offended at everything should shove their Morning Star up their aperture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Just now, shull said: Those offended at everything should shove their Morning Star up their aperture. You seem to be the most easy to offend on the forum Shull. You have a list of "I hates" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 John Cleese on the removal of an episode of Fawlty Towers..................... However, Cleese told the Sydney Morning Herald that not everybody could see that “if you put nonsense words into the mouth of someone you want to make fun of you’re not broadcasting their views, you’re making fun of them”. “The Major was an old fossil left over from decades before,” he said. “We were not supporting his views, we were making fun of them. If they can’t see that, if people are too stupid to see that, what can one say?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 21 hours ago, antrin said: Not just a uniform. it was a continuation of a demeaning stereotype concocted in the USA for white amusement. I understand why the Minstrels were/are considered offensive but is that enough - it's not as if they were inciting hate crime? We live in a world where, it seems to me, both liberals and conservatives first argument often seems to be to try and shut off debate (go nuclear first), competing to be the most offended, a world where Voltaire's maxim can no longer be applied but there's got to be some room for controversial POVs that go outside the Overton window, as long as you're not advocating or inciting hatred or violence. PS - I know the Minstrels wont be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) Drawing a parallel with the B+W Minstrel show... Despite the fact that (as it seemed to me at the time) - instead of being offended - Scots/Jocks embraced the See You Jimmy comedian and his outfit. It has now passed away as stale and way beyond its sell by date. However, if another New series commenced based upon that shallow stereotype, I get a feeling in my watter that SNP followers would be ripping down statues, painting the Houses of Parliament with subtle graffiti and bombarding the offending media company that chose to perpetuate the parody. Twitter WOULD melt doon. Edited June 12, 2020 by antrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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