How much longer do we give the manager

[stlucifer]

12 minutes ago, TopCat said:

Might aswell do away with league tables then if nothing is directly comparable 😆

So if Robinson wins his last four games (he won't) against teams from the bottom half he will still have a lower PPG than Goodwin? My word, never realised it was that bad!

I agree with Slarti on this point. There are other variables to consider. You HAVE to take into account the players and their reaction to losing the guy who brought them into the squad. Losing JG at such a crucial time must have had some sort of impact. Then having another guy walk in trying to put his stamp on the team must also have an effect. There was no chance of a new manager upward bounce given the previous results since the turn of the year. 

I also still think there was a good chance things would have turned sour even if JG had remained at the helm. I certainly don't think we pulverised teams during that undoubted purple patch. I do think we might have scraped a couple of draws as that was Jim's speciality.

[Slarti]

30 minutes ago, TopCat said:

Might aswell do away with league tables then if nothing is directly comparable 😆

So if Robinson wins his last four games (he won't) against teams from the bottom half he will still have a lower PPG than Goodwin? My word, never realised it was that bad!

If you think that the league table shows direct comparisons then you are an idiot.

[TopCat]

37 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

I agree with Slarti on this point. There are other variables to consider. You HAVE to take into account the players and their reaction to losing the guy who brought them into the squad. Losing JG at such a crucial time must have had some sort of impact. Then having another guy walk in trying to put his stamp on the team must also have an effect. There was no chance of a new manager upward bounce given the previous results since the turn of the year. 

I also still think there was a good chance things would have turned sour even if JG had remained at the helm. I certainly don't think we pulverised teams during that undoubted purple patch. I do think we might have scraped a couple of draws as that was Jim's speciality.

That's part of the variable we have considered. You're spot on, we used to have a manager who the players loved playing for and as such he had them punching above their weight. We were 4th on PPG the day he left, that was not the 4th best squad in the country. Last paragraph is pointless waffle. Things may have turned worse? Maybe. Maybe they'd have got better. Most likely they'd have stayed about the same, and we would now be in the top six and fighting for Europe. We will never know. 

28 minutes ago, Slarti said:

If you think that the league table shows direct comparisons then you are an idiot.

Yeah why compare anything? Might aswell just close football down because it's all pointless anyway  This forum man 😆

Edited April 26, 2022 by TopCat

[Cookie Monster]

To clarify... If I have to...

You don't, if only you had read antrins post and my reply instead of doing a cookie and not read everything.

[Slarti]

Yeah why compare anything? Might aswell just close football down because it's all pointless anyway  This forum man 

So because they are not directly comparable you would shut them down? That's a bit of a weird way to look at things. It's an entertainment business, FFS. That's why it's so good. No matter how you get your jollies (watching the best free flowing football, getting one over your rivals, having something to moan about, etc.), there's something for everyone.

Anyway, I was only pointing out one thing and, as I said, I try not to get involved in subjective matters, so I'm out.

[Slarti]

Well if you take your point and reach the logical conclusion, then no two managers should ever be compared because they will have different squads, backroom staff, injury problems, weather, etc.
So what you're saying is, even if Robinson's team doesn't win single game this season and we're relegated, he cannot be compared to Jim as there are too many variables.  
Jim's worst run was 6 points from 11 games (inc. 3 versus Old Firm) = 0.545 points per game (PPG)
Robinson's entire record is 3 points from 8 league games = 0.375 (PPG)
This is, don't forget, comparing Jim's WORST run with Robinson's entire record. Jim lost 7 games in 25 matches, Robinson has lost 7 games in 8 matches (plus a Scottish Cup defeat).
Say what you like, but Robinson's record is objectively worse.

No, that's not what I said at all.

You can objectively compare two sets of raw data without that having any bearing on things not included, that is, the result has no bearing on anything else. Also, things can be objectively subjective or subjectively objective (in fact, most things are, in reality, one or the other) as well as being purely objective or subjective.

Anyway, as I said in the previous post, I'm out.

[TopCat]

9 minutes ago, Slarti said:

 

 

No, that's not what I said at all.

You can objectively compare two sets of raw data without that having any bearing on things not included, that is, the result has no bearing on anything else. Also, things can be objectively subjective or subjectively objective (in fact, most things are, in reality, one or the other) as well as being purely objective or subjective.

Anyway, as I said in the previous post, I'm out.

 

So in summary, you can't compare them because they were different games of football happening at different times. But if you did compare them Robinson is doing worse.

[Rascal]

9 minutes ago, Slarti said:

 

 

No, that's not what I said at all.

You can objectively compare two sets of raw data without that having any bearing on things not included, that is, the result has no bearing on anything else. Also, things can be objectively subjective or subjectively objective (in fact, most things are, in reality, one or the other) as well as being purely objective or subjective.

Anyway, as I said in the previous post, I'm out.

 

Definitely a scientific approach with a hidden philosopher in there peeping out. No worse for that.

[stlucifer]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:44 PM, TopCat said:

That's part of the variable we have considered. You're spot on, we used to have a manager who the players loved playing for and as such he had them punching above their weight. We were 4th on PPG the day he left, that was not the 4th best squad in the country. Last paragraph is pointless waffle. Things may have turned worse? Maybe. Maybe they'd have got better. Most likely they'd have stayed about the same, and we would now be in the top six and fighting for Europe. We will never know. 

Yeah why compare anything? Might aswell just close football down because it's all pointless anyway  This forum man 😆

If my last paragraph was pointless waffle because I speculated then your entire argument must come under the same bracket as it's entirely speculation.

[TopCat]

15 hours ago, stlucifer said:

If my last paragraph was pointless waffle because I speculated then your entire argument must come under the same bracket as it's entirely speculation.

i have been comparing things that actually have happened. You were pontificating on things that may or may not have happened, such as form maybe dropping off anyway if Jim had stayed. Certainly a difference there?

Edited April 28, 2022 by TopCat

[Rascal]

We each have our views on the capabilities of both Jim and Stephen. For a variety of understandable reasons Jim is a hard act to follow at the club. The final league match of the season in Aberdeen brings them head to head. That will be interesting.

[faraway saint]

3 hours ago, TopCat said:

i have been comparing things that actually have happened. You were pontificating on things that may or may not have happened, such as form maybe dropping off anyway if Jim had stayed. Certainly a difference there?

Like you did when you said we'd have finished 4th if the league had been stopped for covid? 🤣

[TopCat]

23 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Like you did when you said we'd have finished 4th if the league had been stopped for covid? 🤣

Well that didn't happen did it  Not a maybe or maybe not.

[stlucifer]

You were also suggesting that the results would have been different IF JG was in charge.

 

21 hours ago, stlucifer said:

Maybe they'd have got better. Most likely they'd have stayed about the same, and we would now be in the top six and fighting for Europe. We will never know. 

That's an assumption. Given the first two games we had under SR, I'm not sure I agree that was the most likely outcome. A bad run usually starts with a couple of losses and a drop in moral. If, as you suggest, the players tried harder under JG then the fault lies squarely with them.

Edited April 28, 2022 by stlucifer

[TopCat]

35 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

You were also suggesting that the results would have been different IF JG was in charge.

 

That's an assumption. Given the first two games we had under SR, I'm not sure I agree that was the most likely outcome. A bad run usually starts with a couple of losses and a drop in moral. If, as you suggest, the players tried harder under JG then the fault lies squarely with them.

I didn't assume it though, i said before it things may have got better or worse, we will never know. 

The players are certainly at fault, no disputing that. Robinson has came in like a wrecking ball and pissed them all off, now they're not trying. Blame is on Robinson for his burn it all down attitude, and of course the players for chucking it so spectacularly.

We now need these same pissed off players who know they're not going to be here next year to keep us up over the next four (or six) games. That's why we are in deep, deep trouble.

[stlucifer]

1 hour ago, TopCat said:

I didn't assume it though, i said before it things may have got better or worse, we will never know. 

The players are certainly at fault, no disputing that. Robinson has came in like a wrecking ball and pissed them all off, now they're not trying. Blame is on Robinson for his burn it all down attitude, and of course the players for chucking it so spectacularly.

We now need these same pissed off players who know they're not going to be here next year to keep us up over the next four (or six) games. That's why we are in deep, deep trouble.

I actually have heard, third hand mind you, that what Robinson actually said was, and I'm paraphrasing, that all contracts were off the table. Not that certain players were surplus. A subtle difference. More of a "clean slate" than a "wrecking ball" wipe out. That to me indicates that the players who are definitely leaving are doing so under their own steam.

[faraway saint]

16 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

I actually have heard, third hand mind you, that what Robinson actually said was, and I'm paraphrasing, that all contracts were off the table. Not that certain players were surplus. A subtle difference. More of a "clean slate" than a "wrecking ball" wipe out. That to me indicates that the players who are definitely leaving are doing so under their own steam.

That's interesting as some of the claims, mainly made up I'm guessing, seemed unlikely, yet were grabbed by many and used as a stick to batter the manager. 

[CraigyBoy]

19 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

I actually have heard, third hand mind you, that what Robinson actually said was, and I'm paraphrasing, that all contracts were off the table. Not that certain players were surplus. A subtle difference. More of a "clean slate" than a "wrecking ball" wipe out. That to me indicates that the players who are definitely leaving are doing so under their own steam.

That doesn't fit the narrative of many on here who think Robbo is solely responsible for us not enjoying our place at the top table where we would be fighting for European football 

🙈

[TopCat]

15 hours ago, stlucifer said:

I actually have heard, third hand mind you, that what Robinson actually said was, and I'm paraphrasing, that all contracts were off the table. Not that certain players were surplus. A subtle difference. More of a "clean slate" than a "wrecking ball" wipe out. That to me indicates that the players who are definitely leaving are doing so under their own steam.

The only contract that could possibly be off the table is Tanser. Millar and Flynn weren't getting deals regardless and they don't play, Alnwick was leaving anyway, and i doubt any decision had been made either way on 34 year old Alan Power. No one else is out of contract. What has happened is that he's told players who are under contract for next year that they aren't part of his plans and they're free to leave in the summer. Which would be fair enough if we were safe, and i think he thought we were.  To the surprise of no one, there was then a huge change in attitude and we went from a team who was hard to beat to one who loses every week We now need these same players who know they're leaving in a few weeks to dig in and get us the results we are going to need to keep us in the league. 

We are in huge trouble. Despite this, we still have a decent chance of staying up, we had so many points on the board before Robbo arrived that even he is going to struggle to relegate us. 

 

[TopCat]

15 hours ago, CraigyBoy said:

That doesn't fit the narrative of many on here who think Robbo is solely responsible for us not enjoying our place at the top table where we would be fighting for European football 

🙈

You say that like it was some unattainable goal. 5th gets European football this year. Ross County - who finished below us last season and were below us all of this season, till Robbo - are in the fight for European football. 

[faraway saint]

27 minutes ago, TopCat said:

You say that like it was some unattainable goal. 5th gets European football this year. Ross County - who finished below us last season and were below us all of this season, till Robbo - are in the fight for European football. 

It's certainly been unattainable for us.

[Cookie Monster]

What has happened is that he's told players who are under contract for next year that they aren't part of his plans and they're free to leave in the summer.

Have you any proof of this?

[TopCat]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

 

 

Have you any proof of this?

 

Come back in two months for proof. There will be several contracted players leaving the club in the summer, regardless of what league we are in. 

[munoz]

Just now, TopCat said:

Come back in two months for proof. There will be several contracted players leaving the club in the summer, regardless of what league we are in. 

This is quite often the at the end of a season, new manager or not.

I can think of a few contracted players that wouldn't be a big loss if they were to leave. 

[TopCat]

2 minutes ago, munoz said:

This is quite often the at the end of a season, new manager or not.

I can think of a few contracted players that wouldn't be a big loss if they were to leave. 

Yep, be more than usual this summer. Robbo wants to gut the place, which is fine i suppose. Just needs to keep us up in the meantime.