The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

With all due respect to everyone involved, I have absolutely no interest in the spat between St Sid and Fras, nor did I have any interest in whatever Stuart Dickson's altercation with SG was about in days gone by. The debate about the future of our club is being de-railed, and I say this as someone who is guilty of posting some right pish myself at times. I do however try to keep my personal problems to the PM system.

Great post, Pozbaird. Well said.

On the subject of the members (and guests) 'facility'. It needs a name. The CIC have come up with the '87 Club' for a membership scheme. How about organising a competition for fans to submit suggestions to name the new bar? That would be community involvement. Winner gets free corporate hospitality, a wee piece in the match programme...

Well said again, great stuff.

Maybe the odd funeral !

Don't forget the Weddings as well as some good old-fashioned Civil Partnerships!

[Bud the Baker]

What are the accrued expenses? Sound a bit vague.

Sorry, but that's how the figures are presented.

What is the date on the accounts? I would hardly say that is 800k in debt, most of it is made up from what is owed out for general expenses at the end of the financial year?

Reason I ask the date of the accounts is we probably haven't received our prize money from the SPL for the footballing season that the expenses ore owed out from.

Date for the accounts is May 31, 2010 - you're probably right about the prize money.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of what theses debts actually are. I remember when they first came out, a lot of people seemed to be not too worried about them, saying they were to be expected, just operating debts that all companies have.

It may also be that when it was said we are debt free, it meant there is no debt against the assets - ie, the ground etc. are secure.

As I said to Chico that's how the figures are presented. I'm not too worried about them as we have net Assets of over £10M but the £860k is real money owed to real companies/organizations as of May 31, 2010 I just wonder how it squares up with the CIC's claim that there is "no club debt". I wouldn't even have bothered to pursue the point but 10000hours asked Kemp why he thought the club currently had £800,000 worth of debt as if the figure had just been plucked out of thin air.

Sorry to ask a question rather than answer one, but could you clarify why you think the club currently has £800,000 worth of debt?

10000hours CIC

Edited April 17, 2011 by Bud the Baker

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

Agree with 'Tracey Barlow' - great idea.

I'm just "Tracy"...I don't do "E"s.

[Bud the Baker]

Accounts of any organisation take a snap shot at a set point in the year.

At any point in time the club is owned money by some and owns money to others, and it is this along with some other accounting rules when applied to a set of statutory accounts that can give the impression that any debt is bank debt. It is not.

Without getting into too much detail perhaps it would be better to clarify the document description as meaning there is no "traditional bank debt"

The club has no borrowings from any bank.

It is this fact we are referring to. In that unlike is some other football businesses where every time the club earns some additional money there may be a bank asking for their slice this is not the case at St Mirren.

When you exclude depreciation. The club is now on a level footing meaning that any extra money the club can earn through being controlled by the CIC can be used by the club for whatever its board (voted on by the majority sharholsing controlled by the CIC) deemappropriate, one would suggest that increased player budgets would be something appropriate.

10000hours CIC

No bank debt (but still £860,000 owed as of May 31, 2010) thanks for clarifying the matter, and if another snapshot was to be carried out today........................

Edited April 17, 2011 by Bud the Baker

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

Accounts of any organisation take a snap shot at a set point in the year.

At any point in time the club is owned money by some and owns money to others, and it is this along with some other accounting rules when applied to a set of statutory accounts that can give the impression that any debt is bank debt. It is not.

Without getting into too much detail perhaps it would be better to clarify the document description as meaning there is no "traditional bank debt"

The club has no borrowings from any bank.

10000hours CIC

Many thanks for clearing that up.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Tracy Barlow Loyal

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

I'm already doing stuff for free. I'm not pulling pints, making sandwiches, or locking up after the Muslim bowlers. If they left me with the keys I'd be on the forum asking for 21 guys to come down for a game.

PM'd my mobile just in case you need numbers made up for a game

[animal]

I went to the Aberdeen midweek game curry night. £35 ST holder rate. It was a huge success, 130 attended, and En Croute's grub was the business.

Hmmm. Profit Animal? Aside from the new facility being a members and guests bar, it is being designed for multi-purpose use, and don't you think the prospect of holding far more 'casual hospitality' events hasn't already been thought about? Pizza and pasta? Curry again?

Do you think this place is being kitted out like the Queen Vic and used for two hours every home game?

130 satisfied customers at £35 - £45 a head, plus bar sales? Do the math my friend!

Yes I have done the maths and that's what worries me. The curry night you refer to was run by the EXISTING staff and using the EXISTING facilities.To make your idea add up, If am understanding it, the CIC would have to run a similar function at the same time as the Club ones. I would have to wonder what effect the CIC's version of corporate hospitality would do to the numbers at the £100 a head version run by the Club.

130 X £34 a head is the NET income. The staff have to be paid, the room heated and lighted, the food and drink paid for (En Croute are good but they don't work for nothing), the capital cost of the facilities taken into account etc. etc. If this was a potential goldmine how come no one else has done it and why are so many local venues shutting down ?

This actually raises a very interesting point. The CIC 'events' could have an effect of the income for the Club. I also seem to remember that some posters a few pages back wanted cut price season tickets and match programs for CIC members. This would also reduce the Club's income. If it were not very very careful the CIC could potentially end up reducing the income of the Club. What would be next - cut price sponsorship, trackside advertising etc etc.

In any case the potential profit / loss on the new bar facilities is only a drop in a very large ocean when looking at the potential repayments of hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt and the potential repayment of grants if this all falls flat on its face in say a years time.

[pozbaird]

Are you on drugs? 'Club' hospitality in one suite, and 'CIC' hospitality 'competing' in the other suite?

Are you for real?

Edited April 17, 2011 by pozbaird

[animal]

Are you on drugs? 'Club' hospitality in one suite, and 'CIC' hospitality 'competing' in the other suite?

Are you for real?

I think the idea is pretty daft - but if you read your own post again that's exactly what you (and others) were suggesting.

[div]

Yes I have done the maths and that's what worries me. The curry night you refer to was run by the EXISTING staff and using the EXISTING facilities.To make your idea add up, If am understanding it, the CIC would have to run a similar function at the same time as the Club ones. I would have to wonder what effect the CIC's version of corporate hospitality would do to the numbers at the £100 a head version run by the Club.

130 X £34 a head is the NET income. The staff have to be paid, the room heated and lighted, the food and drink paid for (En Croute are good but they don't work for nothing), the capital cost of the facilities taken into account etc. etc. If this was a potential goldmine how come no one else has done it and why are so many local venues shutting down ?

This actually raises a very interesting point. The CIC 'events' could have an effect of the income for the Club. I also seem to remember that some posters a few pages back wanted cut price season tickets and match programs for CIC members. This would also reduce the Club's income. If it were not very very careful the CIC could potentially end up reducing the income of the Club. What would be next - cut price sponsorship, trackside advertising etc etc.

In any case the potential profit / loss on the new bar facilities is only a drop in a very large ocean when looking at the potential repayments of hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt and the potential repayment of grants if this all falls flat on its face in say a years time.

I think there is a decent point in there. There is undoubtedly going to be a clash here and there between CIC related activities and those which the club have been doing already.

An extreme example might be a "corporate member" of the CIC who is already spending several thousand pounds per annum on corporate hospitality. Would they invest £10k into the CIC AND continue their corporate spend with the club directly ?

I'd guess it's unlikely that ALL the corporate members of the CIC are going to be "new money" ?

On the actual point above, I'd say it unlikely that there would be much of a clash between the supporters bar and the full ticket corporate. It's two very different target markets for each IMO.

[Stuart Dickson]

I have a funny feeling 10khrs already knows this. Giving a dummy to a baby shuts them up for a good period of time.

I spat the dummy a long, long time ago....

[Stuart Dickson]

I'd like to see St Mirren become a focal point of football in Renfrewshire, I think one way this could be started is to put up a trophy in a cup format at say under 14 youth level with the final played at Ralston or even Greenhill Road. I think the benefits of this could be spotting potential talent that has been missed or just adding to the gate in future years. I also think it could be a good idea to offer 'refresher' courses to youth coaches on say a 3 month basis to keep the coaches up to speed on new ideas and to promote goodwill between the club and the youth teams.

Bud that's part of what I've been wanting. It doesn't take a CIC to do it though. Senior football clubs used to have informal agreements in place with football clubs back in the 70's and 80's without the need for government grants and social funding.

Anyway I sent my e-mail as requested

Edited April 17, 2011 by Stuart Dickson

[10000hours]

I wish someone would explain to me how this bar is going to contribute hard cash profits to the CIC and/or the Club.

Then allow us to try and help.

As I understand it, it will be open before and after home games. That would be about 25- to 30 'events' a year. Plus maybe the odd funeral !

It will be open before and after game for the CIC members. But will become an important part of the business plan for both the CIC and the club, and an important part of the plan for a number of the community members of 10000hours. It will be used a number of times a week not just on match days

It's a long time (about 15 years) since I worked in the hospitality industry but I can't see how this can make any real profit.

Please be assured that a significant number of the 10000hours team have both historic and current experience in the industry and that they are all very happy about the potential for the sort of flexible space that will be created within the void to make some very real profit.

Given that its fit out costs (a five figure sum, I suspect) will have to be paid back over a period of time and its trading / opening times will be so limited.

It will indeed require a significant amount of money to fit out this space. However firstly 10000hours CIC already has the development of this in hand should the deal conclude and secondly that while the opening times as a match day bar will be limited, the usage of a high quality flexible space is expected to be high.

If I have understood the terms of the CIC, It will limit the number of potential customers to those paying in their £10 a month and maybe their guests.

Even trying to provide draft beers on this very time limited basis will be very hard to make add up. Staff costs and other overheads will add to the problems.

We do not agree with your analysis. If the facility is run correctly and efficiently then it will more than add up. It adds up at similar sporting venues and indeed at locations such as theatres and the SECC where only very small time windows are avaliable for sales.

The existing bar in the corporate area is not a good comparison since of course the cost is folded into the £100 ish that we pay for the corporate package.

We don't recall publically comparing what goes on in the corporate with the proposed in the current "void" area. However there is good data on what the notional spend is in corporate (when inclusive) and there are occasions when the hospitality suite is run with a pay bar and certainly in the background all of this infomation has been used and we belive it is relevant.

Take a walk round the Town Centre (or any other Town centre) and see the number of boarded up pubs and restaurants who have failed to make money from a FULL time business with unlimited potential clients.

We agree, but do not think this is a fair comparision, as the venue is not trying to make it as a full time licensed premises.

It is worth noting that the facility is large enough to hold 600 people standing 400 in theatre mode and 300 table seated. It will not only provide a great facility on match days, but a great hard working community facility and a fantastic extention to the existing club hospitality space enabling the club to cater over two large rooms (Banquet room and Party room) for weddings and christmas parties etc

This seems like just another part of the financial fantasy which is the CIC.

It will be no surpirse that we storngly disagee with you on this point.

At the end of the day this is about a system of corporate funding and governance that allows the whole community to take control of the majority shareholding of St Mirren FC, and we think this can bring great benefits for the community, business and importantly for the individual fan the club.

We do not think we have a monopoly on good ideas but we have come up with what we believe is one and so decided to roll our sleves up and have a go at making this happen, if the deal does not complete then yes a lot of people will have wasted a lot of time and energy that they have invested in this project but we will at least have tried......we hope we will be able, at some point to have you try with us.

10000hours CIC

Edited April 17, 2011 by 10000hours

[bluto]

Good post bluto and delivered in typical B&WArmy spirit - a good old fashioned character assassination that has made B&WArmy what is today - amen to that. It is also a character assassination made in the open forum with gile and humour - again a trait that has made B&WArmy what it is today. The beauty of posting character assassinations on an open forum is that people get a chance to respond.

As I said, tongue in cheek character assassinations on public forums are good fun -

This is bollox. There is no such tradition in b+w army other than your serial character assassinations of players and posters and fans - which I put down to your indoctrination in the ways of Parkhead. YOU are the only one who does such things on here and a few people respond. I don't like bullies so I do chip in against you.

It is NOT fun.

Those voices in your head telling you to do these things are doing you no favours in the real world. Beware them.

With all due respect to everyone involved, I have absolutely no interest in the spat between St Sid and Fras, nor did I have any interest in whatever Stuart Dickson's altercation with SG was about in days gone by. The debate about the future of our club is being de-railed, and I say this as someone who is guilty of posting some right pish myself at times. I do however try to keep my personal problems to the PM system.

I agree - I don't like how Sid has done that - once again.

Sid makes a habit of such baseless private attacks in the midst of serious debate, then backtracks furiously, drops out entirely or, like below, pretends none of it was his doing and tries to bow out gracefully.

He admits the Sid/Fras spat rumour is only hearsay - yet he's the one who raised the stakes, citing that in a private message that a relative of his had been attacked (for we know not what!) yet Sid feigns mock outrage - very Parkhead tactics, as you'd expect from the bhoy.

For those who know Sid, it's not a huge leap to be able to figure out 'the relative' involved... in what dodgy dealings we don't know... I'm sure the relative will be well pleased by Sid outing him, in such a way, about such a matter.

Agreed pozbaird, my last word on it is that the rumour is entirely hearsay and that is the only fact in this. Matter closed as far as I am concerned. What is happening just now is far too important to be side track by personal issues with the club or club officials.

Beware those voices in your head, Sid...

[Reynard]

Yes really, the debts were listed as

Loans (due within 1 year) £30,000

Hire Purchase (due within 1 year) £7,756

Trade Creditors £216,519

Social Security & other taxes £72,840

VAT £6,281

Other Creditors £5,742

Wages Control £20,484

Accrued Expenses £414,335

Loans (due after more than 1 year) £82,500

Hire Purchase (due after more than 1 year) £8,015

Total £864,472

The vast bulk of that is just normal club running costs. The debts as they fall due are just ones that are there at the end of the clubs financial year. The likes of the VAT will be a part of the normal VAT quarter bill. It's the long term debts that are the issue, things like bank loans, overdrafts etc etc. Everything else looks like day to day running of most businesses and only becomes an issue if turnover collapses.

[Bud the Baker]

The vast bulk of that is just normal club running costs. The debts as they fall due are just ones that are there at the end of the clubs financial year. The likes of the VAT will be a part of the normal VAT quarter bill. It's the long term debts that are the issue, things like bank loans, overdrafts etc etc. Everything else looks like day to day running of most businesses and only becomes an issue if turnover collapses.

So long as we're in the SPL we're only ever 12 (or so) months from the possibity of relegation and maybe losing 40% of turnover.

[Reynard]

So long as we're in the SPL we're only ever 12 (or so) months from the possibity of relegation and maybe losing 40% of turnover.

I don't know if you run a business or not. I do, I know that when my accounts are produced at the end of a financial year that I have a considerable amount of trade debts to be paid, VAT, NI contributions and all the other day to day stuff. It may well be paid the next day, but it all looks like debt rather than just normal running of a business.

The accounts the club produced are fine. There's nothing there I can see that is concerning at all.

Yes if the clubs turnover drops(due to relegation) then the club will need to reduce running costs, but that can be planned for to an extent. It wouldn't be good of course, but it should be manageable for a club like ours now.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Reynard

[Guest somner9]

somner9, you were starting to make a bit of sence for a while there and even some of the questions above are good as they offer an opportunity for 10,000 hours to clarify the concerns you have. But then you go and spoil decent posts by claiming that it will all start with a £2m debt, which people already know is not going to be the case. There's some good questions there but they would be better asked without the scaremongering spin.

to buy the 52% majority shareholding that is proposed will cost 10000 hours £2m, at present the CiC known as 10000 hours is not trading (we assume) so it needs loans, grants etc totalling £2m. when/if it buys the shares on the balance sheet it will have costs of £2m. this will be debt until such times as Loans/Grants and membership income hit the balance sheet.

obviously don't know the detail of the funding, loans, grants etc lined up by 10000 hours or the payment schedule for the 52% shares. it would be highly unlikely that the funding will all arrive in one go, and possibly theres an agreement to pay for the shares in instalments? either way they will start with a debt of £2m. the info available suggests grants are available, but doesn't specify how much? or possibly more pertinent over what period and terms. grants normally become available to draw down as you reach the targets set out (individual membership, community involvement, benefits to community etc)

you can split hairs over it as to how long that will be, but they start with a debt of £2m. ask 10000 hours.

they have in place a plan to pay off that debt with the loans/grants/membership, but they also state they NEED to derive enhanced trading profit as part of their business plan.

if it seems like pure scaremongering that is not my intention, i simply want to highlight the fact that the CiC is not putting money into the club until at whatever point it generates enhanced profit that can be channeled towards meeting its debt commitment and then! aims and objectives (player budget).

SMFC is not the only stakeholder that as a CiC 10000 hours can chanel profit to, and this is the important point.

It will have to pay its debts like you and me, it will want to return enhanced profit to the club, but also the community groups? this is a question for 10000 hours

a final point to also bear in mind, the community groups will obviously have an influence over affairs involving SMFC should the proposal go ahead as part of their five person share in the membership board. a cynic might suggest that if community group (A) wanted to increase it's influence then it could ask it's members to apply for individual membership as well, get on the membership board by voting one or more of their kind in and then be better placed to control their own interests!

again i will state for the sake of balance, their hasn't been any other credible offer on the table that gives an undertaking to secure the club's long term future. the question is with all the outside influence that 10000 hours will undoubtebly bring to the club's affairs is this better or worse than what we now have?

i know the lure of more money to spend on players is something that seduces us all, from a purely business perspective though, how many start-ups start paying dividends to other entities in year one? or year two?....... if it walks like a duck?

[Guest somner9]

I took it as being that any new business as a result of the cic would be used to pay off any debt - this would include a bar (would this be cic owned or club owned in terms of profit making and running?) - so the club wouldn't be any worse off as we don't have these income avenues at the moment anyway.

And you say its fans money because they are spending it in the bar, but if they are going to spend that money elsewhere anyway, ie, the last post or bar point, then it makes sense for that money to stay in house.

On the 10,000 hours thread it states that RA won't be taking a wage from either the cic or the club board...I'd assume that would be the same for any other elected board member (to either board) and in this sense, we won't be any worse off.

Maybe the community members are making money purely by using the facilities for free. How much would a church group spend renting premises a year? Over 500quid a year would seem plausible (im just guessing - 500quid would be about 11quid a week). They would have the benefit of greenhill road and maybe use ralston for village fetes etc. - the church group is an example, I'm sure if you were to look at the different types of community groups, you could have the same argument.

The debt isn't strictly 2m quid, the majority of it will be grants - which I know can get called in ie, by the national lottery if they are not used for what they were given, this won't happen as long as the cic is run properly.

So even saying 500,000 of the 2m is a loan ( again an assumption, probably lower than this, could be higher) this 500,000 is paid off over the next, say, 10 years via 40grand ind members + 12grand comm members + 120grand corp members --- 170grand a year, minus running costs. As long as the cic is run properly, this could easily be achieved with some left over to improve the team or the facilities - and the loans are "soft" which safeguards any facilities from being sold off and - I'm not an expert on it - does this not mean they are considerably more lenient than a bank if it can't be paid in the agreed time, ie, they're happy to extend the payoff period for not much more extra cost?

If all if this happens, the club will not be worse off than we are now....as long as the cic is run properly - any cic dealings will not be able to be hidden, the members board ultimately answers to the cic members - which means as many people as possible signing up.

Sounds like a no brainer to me!

i know it has been said that Richard Atkinson wont be taking a wage from 10000 hours, but i would be surprised if there weren't others that will, read the 10000 hours document there's a couple of names and job roles outlined there!

so community group (A) ponies up its £500 to become a member of 10000 hours. we know that £500 is not going into the club. it then gets free use of facilities at GHR or Ralston, sounds good to be public spirited and inclusive. but where's the payback? are the church group planning a "Smokers Night" in the new bar, ordering curry and indulging in drinking competitions there by swelling the takings???

i can see the benefit for community groups using the facilities, IF they are paying for them. but if it's given free for community use as method for the CiC to prove it is benefitting the community (thus getting its grants & loans). how does this pay Higdon's raw meat budget? or plastic kneecaps for Dargo? let alone bring in new players?

i know it's a point already raised but the CiC 10000 hours (we assume) isn't yet trading or generating turnover so it has no funds on the balance sheet. when/if it buys 52% shareholding it will have a debt of £2m, until it draws down the loans/grants and receives the membership monies.

this will not happen on day one, the loans/grants and the membership funds will come in over a period of time and in instalments.

there will be an ongoing debt situation. 10000 hours openly tell us this in their document which i quoted previously.

soft loans and grants are subject to criteria/targets being achieved over a period of time and they are paid in proportion as said criteria/targets are met. so for example a soft loan may not have a rigid repayment schedule, but may be set up so the loan is re-paid as the monies become available.

grants in most "Social" cases are paid as the evidence of the benefits set out as aims are realised.

a good question would be what figure do the grants total, and what figure do the loans amount to?

Edited April 18, 2011 by somner9

[Guest somner9]

Something tells me that Sommer9 has some sort of agenda. Or, maybe I've got it wrong and he's just an abnoxious character by nature.

i really don't know why you can say that?

if i raise concerns about the football club i've supported for 40 odd years in your book that suggests

(Q) - i have an agenda?

(A) - yeah that would be the long term security of my club

(Q) - "he's just an abnoxious character by nature."

(A) - always been my philosphy to not disrespect, or slight someone/somebody that without foundation does that to you. otherwise you are drawn closer and have the outlook they have

[Bud the Baker]

I don't know if you run a business or not. I do, I know that when my accounts are produced at the end of a financial year that I have a considerable amount of trade debts to be paid, VAT, NI contributions and all the other day to day stuff. It may well be paid the next day, but it all looks like debt rather than just normal running of a business.

The accounts the club produced are fine. There's nothing there I can see that is concerning at all.

Yes if the clubs turnover drops(due to relegation) then the club will need to reduce running costs, but that can be planned for to an extent. It wouldn't be good of course, but it should be manageable for a club like ours now.

You run a business - congratulations. I worked in purchasing at an earlier point in my career so I understand it's not like an individual going to Tesco and paying for goods on the spot, that companies usually pay for goods and services at an agreed date. The club may very well have paid them the next day but neither of us have any idea if that was the case or not, do you believe they did?

Anyway my initial point was that the CIC claimed that there was "no club debt" then tried to dismiss the figure of £860,000 as speculation (along with a few others) and when it was pointed out that it came from the last set of Accounts said that what they actually meant was that there was no "traditional bank debt". It was the bit in the middle that annoyed me.

Also I'm a little bit confused as to why the CIC should be making ambiguous statements about the clubs finances at this stage in proceedings, but if they say the £860,000 is just running costs then so be it. Anyway for me nothing has changed, I was agin the CIC before I'm still agin it.

[TsuMirren]

a good question would be what figure do the grants total, and what figure do the loans amount to?

That is indeed a very good question as it's important to eliminate as many perceived black holes as possible.

As before I can only use my Ebbsfleet experiences as a direct comparison to this. There was no member involvement with the takeover agreement and the agreement saddled the membership with payments for all manner of third party bits and pieces. Very much a case of "we promise this, give us your money...right, you now have this". For arguments sake, if membership fees of this CIC are paying back say 800K then that's not a bad deal considering the club isn't running at a loss and we are so close to the pack above us. Comparing that to Ebbsfleet, running a ludicrous budget, hoping population levels will spiral and wanting a new ground, already shows this CIC can be more viable and give supporters fewer concernr. Obviously we have the monkey on our back of people believing community groups are getting everything for free with nothing coming back. It can be stated that members of groups are more likely to use "their" facilities for functions and that points to SMFC gaining via that avenue.

I'm sure we all want to see certain figures, in my mind though I'd rather see them at a public meeting as opposed to on a forum such as this where it's harder to control access and where the information goes.

Another point i'd make now is that no money has been taken, indeed the 10000 hours site doesn't even have areas for registering actual interest, yet we already know more about what will happen and have been engaged with a lot more than prospective members have been in other ventures like this.

[Reynard]

You run a business - congratulations. I worked in purchasing at an earlier point in my career so I understand it's not like an individual going to Tesco and paying for goods on the spot, that companies usually pay for goods and services at an agreed date. The club may very well have paid them the next day but neither of us have any idea if that was the case or not, do you believe they did?Anyway my initial point was that the CIC claimed that there was "no club debt" then tried to dismiss the figure of £860,000 as speculation (along with a few others) and when it was pointed out that it came from the last set of Accounts said that what they actually meant was that there was no "traditional bank debt". It was the bit in the middle that annoyed me.

Also I'm a little bit confused as to why the CIC should be making ambiguous statements about the clubs finances at this stage in proceedings, but if they say the £860,000 is just running costs then so be it. Anyway for me nothing has changed, I was agin the CIC before I'm still agin it.

Thanks.

If these are payments to trade people then the terms are likely to be that payment is due by the end of the month following invoicing and if you look at the clubs credit rating then it's quite clear that the club tends to stick to that as it's credit rating is decent. There will be various costs like policing etc etc which will be paid this way. It's normal and in a set of accounts it will show all debt to be paid at the end of a financial year. So unless the club has stopped paying these, which I would doubt very much, then this is all a part of ongoing trading and is normal for any business. It's about cash flow.

There won't be a single football club in the country that doesn't work this way and there will be very few businesses that pay as soon as an invoice turns up unless its pro forma.

[Reynard]

It's also good for the club to carry "some" debt as it will reduce profit and mean that the club doesn't get skelped for tax too. The depreciation of the new ground will help ensure that for a number of years we can run at a paper loss and avoid paying tax.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Reynard

[Stuart Dickson]

That is indeed a very good question as it's important to eliminate as many perceived black holes as possible.

As before I can only use my Ebbsfleet experiences as a direct comparison to this. There was no member involvement with the takeover agreement and the agreement saddled the membership with payments for all manner of third party bits and pieces. Very much a case of "we promise this, give us your money...right, you now have this". For arguments sake, if membership fees of this CIC are paying back say 800K then that's not a bad deal considering the club isn't running at a loss and we are so close to the pack above us. Comparing that to Ebbsfleet, running a ludicrous budget, hoping population levels will spiral and wanting a new ground, already shows this CIC can be more viable and give supporters fewer concernr. Obviously we have the monkey on our back of people believing community groups are getting everything for free with nothing coming back. It can be stated that members of groups are more likely to use "their" facilities for functions and that points to SMFC gaining via that avenue.

I'm sure we all want to see certain figures, in my mind though I'd rather see them at a public meeting as opposed to on a forum such as this where it's harder to control access and where the information goes.

Another point i'd make now is that no money has been taken, indeed the 10000 hours site doesn't even have areas for registering actual interest, yet we already know more about what will happen and have been engaged with a lot more than prospective members have been in other ventures like this.

Yeah but Kenny that's more a criticism of other projects and the people to signed up to be members than it is a positive for 10000 hours. This isn't a last gasp option. What you have is a situation of a solvent club being run in a manner that appears to have kept the majority of fans happy for the last 13 years and what is being put to the fans is they can either leave the current crop of directors running the club with the club on the market, or they can fork out £120 per annum and take an adventure into the dark.

To me the detail is still very vague. Where they have put flesh on it - Fitzpatrick talking about increased use of facilities and citing the unused kitchens as an example, or having a church group use a currently vacant hall for their meetings whilst we sell them tea and scones - it all sounds perfectly sensible. Indeed it leaves you wondering just how amateurish the club must currently be that they haven't already explored and exploited those avenues as you wouldn't need to be a CIC to do them.

But then there is the other angle where it looks like one of those cash retirement plans - you know the one where the pensioner sells their house in return for a cash lump sum, and then pays a mortgage on the property for the rest of their lives in the hope they die before the cash runs out. How else can you look at a deal that appears to allow 5 current directors to put the club in debt so they can extract £2m for their personal gain and yet retain their position on the board, retain their seat in the directors box, continue to get access to the directors lounge, and possibly even for one to retain his post with the SPL, in return for the £10,000 per annum repayment?

It's only to be expected that potential members should want to know exactly where their money is going, what they get for their money and how the CIC will operate. Hopefully there will be a great deal more detail at the public meetings.