The Referendum Thread

[oaksoft]

Has anyone on here read every page of the big SNP launch document? I have a friend who had to do so, and had to stop for a lie down when he actually read in the document that we don't need to worry about the BBC in an independent Scotland, we'll still be able to watch Eastenders and CBBC. It actually mentioned Eastenders in the document. He also said that it was pretty much devoid of detail and was merely a wish list that resembled a Christmas letter to Santa Claus.

No I haven't either.

I expect almost nobody will have read it.

With both sides lying and exaggerating, people will be forced to decide without having facts in front of them.

Without facts you're left with your instinct.

That's my point really.

BTW I have no idea who'll win but I'm pretty sure it'll be tight either way.

[pozbaird]

No I haven't either.

I expect almost nobody will have read it.

With both sides lying and exaggerating, people will be forced to decide without having facts in front of them.

Without facts you're left with your instinct.

That's my point really.

BTW I have no idea who'll win but I'm pretty sure it'll be tight either way.

I don't think it will be tight. I think the Union will be retained comfortably. I think this because when push comes to shove, when people are actually standing in a voting booth with a pencil in their hand, the urge to leap into the unknown will be overtaken by the urge to stick with what you know and take your chances with the rest of the UK. I see what the polls currently say, they don't matter Jack Shit. The only vote that matters is on the day. My gut tells me 'better the devil you know' attitudes will win out.

We'll see later, eh?

[oaksoft]

I don't think it will be tight. I think the Union will be retained comfortably. I think this because when push comes to shove, when people are actually standing in a voting booth with a pencil in their hand, the urge to leap into the unknown will be overtaken by the urge to stick with what you know and take your chances with the rest of the UK. I see what the polls currently say, they don't matter Jack Shit. The only vote that matters is on the day. My gut tells me 'better the devil you know' attitudes will win out.

We'll see later, eh?

IMO It's more likely to be the opposite.

I think people will be swept along by the excitement of a new dawn.

One of us will be wrong.

[pozbaird]

IMO It's more likely to be the opposite.

I think people will be swept along by the excitement of a new dawn.

One of us will be wrong.

Might be a score draw. Nick Clegg can toss the coin to decide the winner.

[thomsons dropped it]

I'd start with BP if LS's post is factually correct......damn sight easier than the Atlantic's going to be.

Might not be easy in the Atlantic, but the rewards are huge, I've been up there 17 years now and still plenty left.

The biggest fields are up there....Clair/ Schiehallion/ Foinaven , and that's just the BP Fields.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's the problem though - we know what a no vote looks like. It looks like it does today. We simply carry on as is. Now some people don't like that and want a change but it's up to the Yes campaign to show hard evidence of what separation looks like - and it's the No campaigns job to challenge them on unsubstantiated claims. They can't simply make airy fairy claims about using sterling on our own terms, being in the EU on our own terms and being part of NATO while telling the same organisation that we're going to put a big hole in their strategic defences by telling them to take their nuclear subs and f**k off. They also need to show hard evidence of costings for this free childcare they keep promising, and they need to show hard evidence of how Scots can be better off financially - like they claim - whilst the government spends more per head on government run services than in any other part of the UK.

As I keep saying a yes vote is irreversible. If Independence turns out to be a complete f**k up we're all going to be stuck with it - you, me, our kids, our grand kids. If you vote yes and in 10 years time you find that the rest of the UK has f**ked you over you can get another referendum and change your vote next time.

You make up so much shit you be in politics. You're like a tory terry kelly.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Better than being a Scottish Heinrich Himmler!

Holocaust memorial day was lost on you...

[buddiecat]

indeed , a west coast oil exploration was blocked by the mod, google "west cost oil boom blocked by mod" quite interesting, it qoutes files now released under foi laws

Edited January 28, 2014 by buddiecat

[Bud Bundy]

I don't think it will be tight. I think the Union will be retained comfortably. I think this because when push comes to shove, when people are actually standing in a voting booth with a pencil in their hand, the urge to leap into the unknown will be overtaken by the urge to stick with what you know and take your chances with the rest of the UK. I see what the polls currently say, they don't matter Jack Shit. The only vote that matters is on the day. My gut tells me 'better the devil you know' attitudes will win out.

We'll see later, eh?

Is This Because The Orange Order, The Masonic Lodges, And The Blue Bigot scum from Govan will Do everything in there Power to cheat the Public of Scotland - Just like The old / new Football team from Govan ?

[saintnextlifetime]

when i lived in ayrshire there was talk of oil deposits off arran, and that ardrossan to hunterston would become the service centre for the developments, could be true that the submarine base put an end to that idea - because as fat sally of ibrokes found when he tried to nick a bit of public beach to build his own wee jetty, the clyde estuary is riddled with underwater sensors and any new developments are severely restricted

I remember hearing those stories as well , back in the day , when l moved to Ayrshire . An oil boom was expected to be imminent . When it didn't happen , no one was quite sure why- local beauty spot , busy shipping route and even water too deep . . of course now we know the real reason. .

[Stuart Dickson]

I remember hearing those stories as well , back in the day , when l moved to Ayrshire . An oil boom was expected to be imminent . When it didn't happen , no one was quite sure why- local beauty spot , busy shipping route and even water too deep . . of course now we know the real reason. .

Defence of the nation during the Cold War. It's certainly not the worst of reasons not to drill for oil there.

[oaksoft]

Defence of the nation during the Cold War. It's certainly not the worst of reasons not to drill for oil there.

Hmmm yet another war we wouldn't have had to waste our resources on.

Thanks. I knew I'd missed one.

[RickMcD]

I see Mark Carney is going into the dragon's den in Edinburgh today with the implications of what a Yes vote will do to currencies. He's a real bright guy so I'm sure he'll know that he's probably on a hiding to nothing. If he upsets the Yes brigade, he'll be an agent provocateur of the pesky tories and if he endorses Independence he'll be a frigging Canadian who should sod off back across the Atlantic and free Quebec. I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say. I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a fan of Salmond but I would love to hear him give a rebuttal if he doesn't like parts of what Carney says. Salmond might have a direct line to Fred the Shred to keep him right.

[salmonbuddie]

Has anyone on here read every page of the big SNP launch document? I have a friend who had to do so, and had to stop for a lie down when he actually read in the document that we don't need to worry about the BBC in an independent Scotland, we'll still be able to watch Eastenders and CBBC. It actually mentioned Eastenders in the document.

To put that in context, poz, it was in response to BT's claim that Scotland wouldn't get BBC programmes like Eastenders if we voted Yes. Just like Ireland or Belgium don't.

[RickMcD]

To put that in context, poz, it was in response to BT's claim that Scotland wouldn't get BBC programmes like Eastenders if we voted Yes. Just like Ireland or Belgium don't.

If Eastenders was to go AWOL from TV in Scotland, at least there would be one good reason to vote Yes.

[flyingscot]

I see Mark Carney is going into the dragon's den in Edinburgh today with the implications of what a Yes vote will do to currencies. He's a real bright guy so I'm sure he'll know that he's probably on a hiding to nothing. If he upsets the Yes brigade, he'll be an agent provocateur of the pesky tories and if he endorses Independence he'll be a frigging Canadian who should sod off back across the Atlantic and free Quebec. I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say. I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a fan of Salmond but I would love to hear him give a rebuttal if he doesn't like parts of what Carney says. Salmond might have a direct line to Fred the Shred to keep him right.

The weakest side of the yes campaign for me is the currency debate. I suspect the idea was to adopt the Euro, but that is seen as unpopular and would turn some floating voters off.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I see Mark Carney is going into the dragon's den in Edinburgh today with the implications of what a Yes vote will do to currencies. He's a real bright guy so I'm sure he'll know that he's probably on a hiding to nothing. If he upsets the Yes brigade, he'll be an agent provocateur of the pesky tories and if he endorses Independence he'll be a frigging Canadian who should sod off back across the Atlantic and free Quebec. I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say. I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a fan of Salmond but I would love to hear him give a rebuttal if he doesn't like parts of what Carney says. Salmond might have a direct line to Fred the Shred to keep him right.

Rick, check BBC Scotland website. Sally mcnair managed to tell me at 8am this morning what carney would say AFTER the meeting...

[Stuart Dickson]

I see Mark Carney is going into the dragon's den in Edinburgh today with the implications of what a Yes vote will do to currencies. He's a real bright guy so I'm sure he'll know that he's probably on a hiding to nothing. If he upsets the Yes brigade, he'll be an agent provocateur of the pesky tories and if he endorses Independence he'll be a frigging Canadian who should sod off back across the Atlantic and free Quebec. I'm really looking forward to hearing what he has to say. I've made no secret of the fact that I'm not a fan of Salmond but I would love to hear him give a rebuttal if he doesn't like parts of what Carney says. Salmond might have a direct line to Fred the Shred to keep him right.

Well just incase you didn't get the live coverage on the BBC Cairney said that if an Independent Scotland wished to use Sterling it would have to cede some of it's National sovereignty and he highlighted the problems in the Eurozone as a warning that economic and currency union without strong agreement in place leads to massive problems.

The SNP propeganda machine has since been spinning all afternoon clutching at straws and claiming that Cairney had agreed that Bank of England would implement whatever monetary arrangements were put in place, if independence happened - like Ciarney had any other authority than to follow the policies outlined by the Westminster Government anyway.

I watched the speech in full and the reactions and this is the BBC article on it which is pretty fairly balanced as far as I can see. I took from it a pretty similar message that Alastair Darling did - in that Cairney was saying that to make currency union work you needed strong political union too. In other words - we're better together.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Dicko and darling... 2 peas in a pod

Fairly balanced bbc article on referendum FFS dont try a stand up routine

Edited January 29, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[oaksoft]

Well just incase you didn't get the live coverage on the BBC Cairney said that if an Independent Scotland wished to use Sterling it would have to cede some of it's National sovereignty

and he highlighted the problems in the Eurozone as a warning that economic and currency union without strong agreement in place leads to massive problems.

Nothing controversial there.

You share something you have to have good agreement about how to share it.

Just like mummy always taught us.

Quite how you go from that commonsense statement of the bleeding obvious to requiring a strong political union only your wee brain can conceive.

BTW Cairney absolutely did not say that "to make currency union work you needed strong political union too."

THAT is spin.

TBH this was a nothing statement other than the fact that he's confirming that a shared currency could work.

Wow. I'm actually going to need a lie down after that excitement.

[Stuart Dickson]

Nothing controversial there.

You share something you have to have good agreement about how to share it.

Just like mummy always taught us.

Quite how you go from that commonsense statement of the bleeding obvious to requiring a strong political union only your wee brain can conceive.

BTW Cairney absolutely did not say that "to make currency union work you needed strong political union too."

THAT is spin.

TBH this was a nothing statement other than the fact that he's confirming that a shared currency could work.

Wow. I'm actually going to need a lie down after that excitement.

I didn't say it was controversial. It's common sense. Just as it is if you want a currency union, you need a political union too. 'Course that's what we've got right now. What is the point of Independence if it means being told what tax rates you can set by a foreign government?

[oaksoft]

I didn't say it was controversial. It's common sense. Just as it is if you want a currency union, you need a political union too. 'Course that's what we've got right now. What is the point of Independence if it means being told what tax rates you can set by a foreign government?

I'm sorry you are deliberately missing the point.

BOTH sides would lose some sovereignty for a currency union to work.

Not just Scotland.

If one side tried to dominate it wouldn't work.

That is what the negotiations would sort out.

You are also forgetting that both sides will be affected by independence.

Both will be weakened if the RUK decides to behave like twats.

And one last point that you are also deliberately forgetting is that it might be CALLED the Bank of England but it isn't England's.

Neither do the RUK have sole claim to it, the pound or anything else currently under the UK banner.

It's a UK institution.

Scotland leaving the UK doesn't mean they have to drop all right to ownership in everything British.

Why would it?

Shares in EVERYTHING would have to be negotiated.

If the UK play silly buggers, they'll be left with the entire debt to service themselves.

Compromise will have to be the word of the day unless both sides have a desperate desire to become bankrupt.

[Stuart Dickson]

I'm sorry you are deliberately missing the point.

BOTH sides would lose some sovereignty for a currency union to work.

Not just Scotland.

If one side tried to dominate it wouldn't work.

That is what the negotiations would sort out.

You are also forgetting that both sides will be affected by independence.

Both will be weakened if the RUK decides to behave like twats.

And one last point that you are also deliberately forgetting is that it might be CALLED the Bank of England but it isn't England's.

Neither do the RUK have sole claim to it, the pound or anything else currently under the UK banner.

It's a UK institution.

Scotland leaving the UK doesn't mean they have to drop all right to ownership in everything British.

Why would it?

Shares in EVERYTHING would have to be negotiated.

If the UK play silly buggers, they'll be left with the entire debt to service themselves.

Compromise will have to be the word of the day unless both sides have a desperate desire to become bankrupt.

Oh FFS Oaksoft - you try so hard to look clever and then you come away with this pish.

The position of Governor of The Bank Of England is a Civil Service appointment. The Westminster government are responsible for making the appointment and because we live in a Monarchy the Queen has to approve the appointment. Scotland will not be an equal partner within the UK - and our Parliament representing 6m people will not be able to dictate the terms to Northern Ireland, Wales and England any more than we'd be able to dictate the terms of our membership of the EU to Germany, Spain, Italy and France, or terms to our membership of NATO to the likes of Canada, the US, Germany or even f**king Belgium!

As for your assertion about the UK playing "silly buggers" - you cannot walk from the debt without severely damaging Scotland in much the same way that if the Republic of Ireland were to default on their loan to the UK they'd be absolutely f**ked as well.

[oaksoft]

Oh FFS Oaksoft - you try so hard to look clever and then you come away with this pish.

The position of Governor of The Bank Of England is a Civil Service appointment. The Westminster government are responsible for making the appointment and because we live in a Monarchy the Queen has to approve the appointment. Scotland will not be an equal partner within the UK - and our Parliament representing 6m people will not be able to dictate the terms to Northern Ireland, Wales and England any more than we'd be able to dictate the terms of our membership of the EU to Germany, Spain, Italy and France, or terms to our membership of NATO to the likes of Canada, the US, Germany or even f**king Belgium!

As for your assertion about the UK playing "silly buggers" - you cannot walk from the debt without severely damaging Scotland in much the same way that if the Republic of Ireland were to default on their loan to the UK they'd be absolutely f**ked as well.

But it wouldn't be our debt would it?

You've consistently claimed that when we walk away we walk away from ownership of everything such as our NATO membership, EU membership, the Bank of England, the Pound, the Queen and everything else.

Except the debt. That we apparently keep hold of? Aye right.

This is where you are deliberately being misleading.

We either have a share of everything or nothing.

You can't cherry pick.

Oh and BTW be a good boy and answer cockles above.

He raises a good question.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Had a read and listen to the guvnor's visit to auld reekie.

He said that they (BoE) would / could make a currency union work if this was the political agreement.

Do any of us plebs need to know much more than this at the moment?

Some mention sovereignty. What he said re sovereignty was;

“An independent Scotland would need to consider carefully how to develop arrangements with the continuing United Kingdom that are both consistent with its sovereignty and sufficient to maintain financial stability.”

As a broad statement that seems relatively straightforward and pretty sound advice. I'm glad there will be 18 months to negotiate these issues - during which Scotland will be in a strong negotiating position. However, no actual mention of losing, ceding or giving up sovereignty as has been widely reported in the media.

Hmm, mibees they simply took the westminster government's briefing and ran with it. Might explain why the bbc were reporting these "warning" 5 hours before we actually heard him speak?

This sovereignty issue is great coming from UK - its such an important issue for Westminster and the UKIPers (must hark back to the empire). They seem to conveniently forget or simply ignore that all countries cede some form of sovereignty whenever they sign up to any agreements or treaties with other states. As a member of the EU, UN, NATO - the UK has ceded sovereignty in joining all these organisations. After the war the UK ceded some of its sovereignty in signing a loan agreement (payable over 60 years?) with the US.

Currently, all Scottish sovereignty is ceded to Westminster...