Shipbuilding Job Losses.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

i dont get what all the fuss is about the UK government stipulating that our warships have to be made "in the UK" therefore precluding an independent Scotland from building them.

Wish they were so picky about our military aircraft !

The UK government also seems to have forgotten that it is currently getting 4 navy ships built in Korea and only last year invited Brazil and India to tender for the type 26 work.

[Stuart Dickson]

Everything in this paragraph is wrong so I give no credence whatsoever to the rest of your post. Unless you're admitting to being one of the alcoholics you referred to? Which would explain a lot....

It's not wrong at all. With about four months to go before the ship was due to move to Greenock laggers working for the pipe lagging contractor on site highlighted an issue where pipes that were being released as having been completed and pressure tested had butts that were still only tacked up. There were also pipelines that had been signed off that were being held together by two bolts in flanges and where gaskets were missing. As a result my foreman - a welder - was recruited by the Site Manager - A Geordie called Kennedy - to walk round every pipeline on the ship to ensure the lines had been properly completed before resubmitting them for pressure testing. Being a welder he quickly found he was struggling with the isometric drawings, so he brought me in to help. He was then moved on to work directly with the Bluewater client while I took over the task from the ground floor Portacabin underneath the site managers office.

Initially there was so few pipelines that were actually complete that the lagging firm threatened to take all of their men off site to other jobs they had on the go which would have threatened the contract even more.

At the same time in the accommodation block there was a huge problem with manky tradesmen who were using the toilets in the accommodation blocks rather than heading to the site toilets, despite the fact that the sewage pipelines hadn't been connected up, and if I remember correctly UiE had to hire a security firm to stand guard on the accommodation block door because beds were being stripped out almost as quickly as they were being fitted by workers who presumably fancied using the bunk beds at home.

Now I have no idea whether the same kind of problems went on at Hitachi where the boats had apparently come to Clydebank and Greenock from but to claim that the workers on the Clyde were from some sort of Centre of Excellence is laughable as I've said already.

[Callum Gilhooley]

It's not wrong at all. With about four months to go before the ship was due to move to Greenock laggers working for the pipe lagging contractor on site highlighted an issue where pipes that were being released as having been completed and pressure tested had butts that were still only tacked up. There were also pipelines that had been signed off that were being held together by two bolts in flanges and where gaskets were missing. As a result my foreman - a welder - was recruited by the Site Manager - A Geordie called Kennedy - to walk round every pipeline on the ship to ensure the lines had been properly completed before resubmitting them for pressure testing. Being a welder he quickly found he was struggling with the isometric drawings, so he brought me in to help. He was then moved on to work directly with the Bluewater client while I took over the task from the ground floor Portacabin underneath the site managers office.

Initially there was so few pipelines that were actually complete that the lagging firm threatened to take all of their men off site to other jobs they had on the go which would have threatened the contract even more.

At the same time in the accommodation block there was a huge problem with manky tradesmen who were using the toilets in the accommodation blocks rather than heading to the site toilets, despite the fact that the sewage pipelines hadn't been connected up, and if I remember correctly UiE had to hire a security firm on the accommodation block door because beds were being stripped out almost as quickly as they were being fitted by workers who presumably fancied using the bunk beds at home.

Now I have no idea whether the same kind of problems went on at Hitachi where the boats had apparently come to Clydebank and Greenock from but to claim that the workers on the Clyde were from some sort of Centre of Excellence is laughable as I've said already.

Thieving Bastards those security companies !

[salmonbuddie]

 

It's not wrong at all. With about four months to go before the ship was due to move to Greenock laggers working for the pipe lagging contractor on site highlighted an issue where pipes that were being released as having been completed and pressure tested had butts that were still only tacked up. There were also pipelines that had been signed off that were being held together by two bolts in flanges and where gaskets were missing. As a result my foreman - a welder - was recruited by the Site Manager - A Geordie called Kennedy - to walk round every pipeline on the ship to ensure the lines had been properly completed before resubmitting them for pressure testing. Being a welder he quickly found he was struggling with the isometric drawings, so he brought me in to help. He was then moved on to work directly with the Bluewater client while I took over the task from the ground floor Portacabin underneath the site managers office. 

 

Initially there was so few pipelines that were actually complete that the lagging firm threatened to take all of their men off site to other jobs they had on the go which would have threatened the contract even more. 

 

At the same time in the accommodation block there was a huge problem with manky tradesmen who were using the toilets in the accommodation blocks rather than heading to the site toilets, despite the fact that the sewage pipelines hadn't been connected up, and if I remember correctly UiE had to hire a security firm to stand guard on the accommodation block door because beds were being stripped out almost as quickly as they were being fitted by workers who presumably fancied using the bunk beds at home. 

 

Now I have no idea whether the same kind of problems went on at Hitachi where the boats had apparently come to Clydebank and Greenock from but to claim that the workers on the Clyde were from some sort of Centre of Excellence is laughable as I've said already. 

UiE did 2 ships in their entire history, that's about the only thing you've got right in both your posts. Apart from that, and your anecdotal stories which I'm in no position to vouch for or against, every "fact" you aver is incorrect. Go and read my first post again, I was senior management on one of them and I know what I'm talking about. I also had a brother-in-law working as a tin basher on the project so I had that perspective, too.

By your own admission, and I'm paraphrasing your claim, you were in charge of a squad of drunks and plumbers. I'll let the forum judge who knows what they're talking about.

I never mentioned "Centre of Excellence," merely passed on what the client on the project I worked on said. A client with worldwide experience who knew what that were talking about.

[Stuart Dickson]

UiE did 2 ships in their entire history, that's about the only thing you've got right in both your posts. Apart from that, and your anecdotal stories which I'm in no position to vouch for or against, every "fact" you aver is incorrect. Go and read my first post again, I was senior management on one of them and I know what I'm talking about. I also had a brother-in-law working as a tin basher on the project so I had that perspective, too.

By your own admission, and I'm paraphrasing your claim, you were in charge of a squad of drunks and plumbers. I'll let the forum judge who knows what they're talking about.

I never mentioned "Centre of Excellence," merely passed on what the client on the project I worked on said. A client with worldwide experience who knew what that were talking about.

Some of the senior management on that Bluewater job had their heads so firmly ensconced up their arse's that it's barely any wonder that you didn't know what was going on. There was more concern on that job about keeping guys standing at the top of a ladder until tea break than there was about ensuring that scaffolding boards remained in place. I think I can place you now though.....

Everything I have said on this thread was my experience of the job. I was in the office opposite Bluewaters Site Agent - the boy from Fife who's name I can't remember. Down the corridor from me were the Dutch Draughtsmen. Upstairs was the Site Manager - that Kennedy bloke. Kennedy fell out with the lagging company so badly that he was banned from their office and their management team refused to talk to him. I landed up being the go between at the worst point between the two and if it wasn't for the fact that my team got the job done you'd have been looking at the boat sailing without any pipes lagged at all.

I was only a pipefitter on that job - nothing more than that. I was a sub contractor brought in through Scotweld but I was right at the heart of your biggest crisis on that job and it seems you weren't aware of it. Perhaps that speaks volumes as to why UiE closed down soon after.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

 

Some of the senior management on that Bluewater job had their heads so firmly ensconced up their arse's that it's barely any wonder that you didn't know what was going on. There was more concern on that job about keeping guys standing at the top of a ladder until tea break than there was about ensuring that scaffolding boards remained in place. I think I can place you now though..... 

Well done you, I'm glad you made that statement. I never worked on Bluewater, it's a product of your imagination. Like so much else you post in this forum.

[Stuart Dickson]

Double post

Edited November 8, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

I'm talking about the contract from circa 98-99 for two drilling vessels one at Clydebank and one at Greenock. It's so much a product of my imagination that you recognised what I've been talking about. Tell me, we're you also senior management when they built that oil rig at UiE where they managed to hit the Erskine Bridge closing it for five months and causing £4m worth of damage

Edited November 8, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

I'm talking about the contract from circa 98-99 for two drilling vessels one at Clydebank and one at Greenock. It's so much a product of my imagination that you recognised what I've been talking about.

You're losing it, listen again. There was no such contract. Take that on board, go and read what I've written and stop making such an arse of yourself.

[salmonbuddie]

Tell me, we're you also senior management when they built that oil rig at UiE where they managed to hit the Erskine Bridge closing it for five months and causing £4m worth of damage

You mean the Captain platform? The one that had left the yard and was on the barge and nothing to do with UiE when it hit the bridge? Is that the one you're talking about? No, I wasn't, why do you ask?

Can someone do this man a favour and take the shovel off his hands, please.

:lol

[Callum Gilhooley]

Watched some of the Portsmouth staff being interviewed on Wednesday after the bad news came. One guy was going on about it as being no real surprise they`d kept govan & scotstoun as "All the directors are Scotch , innit "

Just checked the BAE site, there are 12 board members, 7 english, 3 Yanks & two who i couldn`t decide, although one looked ,with his background, as if he may well be Scottish.

Hardly ALL SCOTCH i`d say !!

I fully understand that emotions would have been running high & i feel great sympathy for all of those who will lose their jobs but this sort of statement shows up a couple of things.

1. We dont live in one big happy UK family, there are as many idiots down there who hate us as there are English haters up here. ( & they are ALL idiots)

2. There will always be some prick with a microphone/camera/notepad to give them airtime !!

[Stuart Dickson]

You mean the Captain platform? The one that had left the yard and was on the barge and nothing to do with UiE when it hit the bridge? Is that the one you're talking about? No, I wasn't, why do you ask?

Can someone do this man a favour and take the shovel off his hands, please.

:lol

Yep that's the one. The one UiE landed up paying £4m to the Scottish Office for....

http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-news/local-news-in-renfrewshire/erskine-news/2008/10/21/msp-demands-bridge-cash-is-spent-locally-87085-22076235/

"Nothing to do with UiE" my arse. Some "senior manager" you must be

[Callum Gilhooley]

Yep that's the one. The one UiE landed up paying £4m to the Scottish Office for....

http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-news/local-news-in-renfrewshire/erskine-news/2008/10/21/msp-demands-bridge-cash-is-spent-locally-87085-22076235/

"Nothing to do with UiE" my arse. Some "senior manager" you must be

Ohhh, looks like its advantage studick, c`mon salmonbuddie its your turn !

[faraway saint]

Ohhh, looks like its advantage studick, c`mon salmonbuddie its your turn !

They should get a room, mirrored ceiling obviously. ;)

[salmonbuddie]

On that note, I think I'm off to be sick....

[bluto]

On that note, I think I'm off to be sick....

Why not just make up and the two of you have a wee game of... er... battleships and cruisers....

[faraway saint]

Why not just make up and the two of you have a wee game of... er... battleships and cruisers....

Reported, stealth filth, surprised and disappointed.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Pretty bizarre posts there. This is very much a political issue, people in Westminster (Philip Hammond) and the SNP have been commenting on it in a political sense, along with trade union officials. Don't either of you ever watch question time? Not see Ed Miliband point scoring against Cameron over Grangemouth? This is a political matter.

It's no wonder that all the major trade unions are coming out in support of the union, GMB being the latest last week. Why do you guys think they're doing this? I'll tell you why, it's because the trade unions believes it's in the best interests of the Scottish Workers to remain in the union, and they're right.

As people who are clearly concerned with workers rights, do you agree with the trade unions conclusions?

What we do know is that an independent Scotland won't be winning any Royal Navy ship building contracts. A no vote is a vote for costing Scottish workers their jobs, that's assured. What will stay after the no vote? A moot point really, it will certainly be far more than what would stay after a yes vote, and that's the surely the most important thing?

We need as many jobs kept in Scotland as possible, and this is one of many reasons i and the majority of my countrymen will throw the referendum bill out next September.

The deal the Labour MP has done will have played a large part in securing Govan got the contract instead of Portsmouth. He will also know that a no vote is assured, so the clause is a hypothetical scenario that won't materialise. The clause he has put in has won jobs for his constituents, which is surely what you'd expect a Westminster representative to do his best to do?

I am no fan of Labour, but i can't see what this guys done wrong here.

Did Stewart Gilmour tell you this after the Hearts game where he was going to sack Danny before the next game?

Ian Davidson hasn't played any part in any contracts with BAE over which yard stays open or not. He has called for a clause to be inserted into the contract... he hasn't secured any jobs for Govan and Scotstoun but if he had his way and his clause was inserted and then Scotland voted Yes he would be responsible for closing the biggest employer in his own constituency.

Portsmouth was closed because the yard wasn't as well equipped, and their workforce was supposedly more militant than the Clyde yards and less productive.

If the decision really is political then maybe the Better Together campaign aren't as confident in private that the referendum vote will go their way next year.

It has already been decided that Govan will finish work on the aircraft carriers which Portsmouth was due to carry out, and Govan and Scotstoun will do 3 vessels before the Type 26 work begins.Are you really saying BAE will re-open a closed yard, re-employ redundant workers and then close 3 yards and announce fresh redundancies all based on the referendum result?

[Callum Gilhooley]

BAE Systems are a multi national company who will make the commercial decisions which they feel will be best for BAE. They will not close a perfectly capable yard if Scotland goes it alone.

http://www.baesystems.com/our-company-rzz/about-us/where-we-operate

As for ongoing MOD work ? as ive said previously , the MOD currently source a massive amount of hardware, software , daywear & even f**kin nightwear from outside the UK so why should Scotland be treated differently from anywhere else in the world ?

Unless of course the UK government were to act in a vindictive manner to those who oppose them & their policies..... but `i`m sure mssrs Cameron et all wouldnt behave in that manner . Would they ?

[bud77]

Did Stewart Gilmour tell you this after the Hearts game where he was going to sack Danny before the next game?

Ian Davidson hasn't played any part in any contracts with BAE over which yard stays open or not. He has called for a clause to be inserted into the contract... he hasn't secured any jobs for Govan and Scotstoun but if he had his way and his clause was inserted and then Scotland voted Yes he would be responsible for closing the biggest employer in his own constituency.

Portsmouth was closed because the yard wasn't as well equipped, and their workforce was supposedly more militant than the Clyde yards and less productive.

If the decision really is political then maybe the Better Together campaign aren't as confident in private that the referendum vote will go their way next year.

It has already been decided that Govan will finish work on the aircraft carriers which Portsmouth was due to carry out, and Govan and Scotstoun will do 3 vessels before the Type 26 work begins.Are you really saying BAE will re-open a closed yard, re-employ redundant workers and then close 3 yards and announce fresh redundancies all based on the referendum result?

Let me turn this round the other way.

If Scotland becomes independent will the Scottish government put the building of naval ships out to tender to foreign countries or would they do everything possible to ensure that work was kept in Scotland ?

We cannot dictate to what would effectively be a foreign country where they should build their ships and just like the Scottish government would do, the UK government would look to try and ensure that work was done in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

[oaksoft]

Let me turn this round the other way.

If Scotland becomes independent will the Scottish government put the building of naval ships out to tender to foreign countries or would they do everything possible to ensure that work was kept in Scotland ?

We cannot dictate to what would effectively be a foreign country where they should build their ships and just like the Scottish government would do, the UK government would look to try and ensure that work was done in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

But as others have said, the UK has all sorts of defence equipment built all over the world.

Keeping jobs in the UK is not the top priority.

It's all about saving money bud.

If Scotland is cheap and reliable then that's where the work will go.

[saintnextlifetime]

But as others have said, the UK has all sorts of defence equipment built all over the world.

Keeping jobs in the UK is not the top priority.

It's all about saving money bud.

If Scotland is cheap and reliable then that's where the work will go.

Indeed , even our ammunition is mostly imported. .

[Isabella Duke]

Draw yer kneck in, I'm speaking from my meetings with managers who worked in this business.

Run along, the "would you" thread are looking for some new pals.

On second thoughts the "I am wanting to meet serious boy" thread might be more in your line.

After making out that you're an expert it turns out that your opinion is based on a chat you had with some guy you met in a meeting!

[Isabella Duke]

Let me turn this round the other way.

If Scotland becomes independent will the Scottish government put the building of naval ships out to tender to foreign countries or would they do everything possible to ensure that work was kept in Scotland ?

We cannot dictate to what would effectively be a foreign country where they should build their ships and just like the Scottish government would do, the UK government would look to try and ensure that work was done in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Its all academic anyway.

Thankfully Scotland won't vote for independence.

[valleybud]

Don`t think anyone wins in this , so why do people try to score points on this forum when people are losing their jobs?

The cuts will affect 940 workers in Portsmouth in 2014, as well as 835 at Filton, in south west England, and Glasgow and Rosyth in Scotland through to 2016, BAE said.

BAE employs 3,200 people at its Glasgow shipyards and 1,200 in shipbuilding in Portsmouth, though it has a total of 4,100 employees in and around the English city steeped in maritime history. The company will continue to keep Portsmouth as the base for its maritime services business, it said.