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Bud the Baker

Brexit Negotiations

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13 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I think whatever happens here , this is the begining of the end for the Fourth Reich the European super state , it has already reached its high tide mark and now it will recede . .

All the wee countries of Europe will go back to working together without being dictated to by Berlin Brussels and having suppressive trading law shoved down their throats. .or the Euro foisted on them for that matter . .

All of this is fine in theory,  Neil, but sadly, any drive throughout Europe for a dissolution of the EU will be fueled largely by reactionary, right wing sentiment, as opposed to progressive attitudes to trade and social democracy.

We've already experienced that in the UK context, with a wave of gutter-media peddled anti-immigration bigotry and hyteria that the likes of Farage and the rabid right of the Tory party mobilised to further their pernicious ideologies.

I would generally consider myself ambivalent at best about many aspects of the EU machine (not least given how they f**ked over Greece), but the tone and manifestation of the whole Brexit adventure has been hugely unsavoury, and I cannot accept it as a reasonable way forward.

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19 minutes ago, Drew said:

All of this is fine in theory,  Neil, but sadly, any drive throughout Europe for a dissolution of the EU will be fueled largely by reactionary, right wing sentiment, as opposed to progressive attitudes to trade and social democracy.

We've already experienced that in the UK context, with a wave of gutter-media peddled anti-immigration bigotry and hyteria that the likes of Farage and the rabid right of the Tory party mobilised to further their pernicious ideologies.

I would generally consider myself ambivalent at best about many aspects of the EU machine (not least given how they f**ked over Greece), but the tone and manifestation of the whole Brexit adventure has been hugely unsavoury, and I cannot accept it as a reasonable way forward.

Neither reasonable or sensible!

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It has always puzzled me that if you don't like the Fourth Reich European mess than you are considered to be right-wing , in a similar vien , people used to label SNP supporters as the Tartan Tories, a bit of a generallity .  It was an individual , who I considered to be very right-wing that signed us up to Europe initially and prior to that Hugh Gaitskill , had vehemently opposed Europe(which may have led to his untimely death) even though he was left wing . .

I don't think immigration is a problem as long as people don't expect to come here and live off the state as we have enough of our own kind doing that already . In fact , the Poles and even more so the Hungarians I have met would put a lot of us to shame with their work ethic . .

Our exit from Europe (hate that other word) will go ahead , it is just a matter of how it will look in the end , but I fail to see how anyone could think that an organisation which has an unelected executive as it's top tier, is not right-wing. .

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44 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

It has always puzzled me that if you don't like the Fourth Reich European mess than you are considered to be right-wing , in a similar vien , people used to label SNP supporters as the Tartan Tories, a bit of a generallity .  It was an individual , who I considered to be very right-wing that signed us up to Europe initially and prior to that Hugh Gaitskill , had vehemently opposed Europe(which may have led to his untimely death) even though he was left wing . .

I don't think immigration is a problem as long as people don't expect to come here and live off the state as we have enough of our own kind doing that already . In fact , the Poles and even more so the Hungarians I have met would put a lot of us to shame with their work ethic . .

Our exit from Europe (hate that other word) will go ahead , it is just a matter of how it will look in the end , but I fail to see how anyone could think that an organisation which has an unelected executive as it's top tier, is not right-wing. .

I think you're confusing bureaucratic and corporate with right wing. I reckon very few people outside of Brussel reckon their was not room for improvement on that issue but the Leave campaign was nasty and in the case of the £350M per week for the NHS wrong. We're leaving the EU and IMO going to be the poorer for it.

Longer term there is a problem for the left in that it has not really worked out joined up policies to tackle the corporate domination & self-service that penalises the average working slob like myself in 2018.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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44 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

It has always puzzled me that if you don't like the Fourth Reich European mess than you are considered to be right-wing , in a similar vien , people used to label SNP supporters as the Tartan Tories, a bit of a generallity .  It was an individual , who I considered to be very right-wing that signed us up to Europe initially and prior to that Hugh Gaitskill , had vehemently opposed Europe(which may have led to his untimely death) even though he was left wing . .

I don't think immigration is a problem as long as people don't expect to come here and live off the state as we have enough of our own kind doing that already . In fact , the Poles and even more so the Hungarians I have met would put a lot of us to shame with their work ethic . .

Our exit from Europe (hate that other word) will go ahead , it is just a matter of how it will look in the end , but I fail to see how anyone could think that an organisation which has an unelected executive as it's top tier, is not right-wing. .

That wasn't my point. Not at all.

I was suggesting that any overall sense of scepticism surrounding the EU (something I have shared) has been hi-jacked by right wing factions. This has been apparent in the UK, and is undoubtedly evident throughout Europe. 

Anti-EU sentiment has been and will continue to be used to further some very unsavoury ideological agendas. That doesn't mean that the EU should escape very robust scrutiny and criticism. It must be radically reformed.

For a much more erudite and informed articulation of what I'm trying to get at, I would highly recommend the writing of Yanis Varoufakis on the subject.  He, as you can appreciate, is far better placed than most to apply a rigorous analysis to the subject.

 

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7 minutes ago, Drew said:

That wasn't my point. Not at all.

I was suggesting that any overall sense of scepticism surrounding the EU (something I have shared) has been hi-jacked by right wing factions. This has been apparent in the UK, and is undoubtedly evident throughout Europe. 

Anti-EU sentiment has been and will continue to be used to further some very unsavoury ideological agendas. That doesn't mean that the EU should escape very robust scrutiny and criticism. It must be radically reformed.

For a much more erudite and informed articulation of what I'm trying to get at, I would highly recommend the writing of Yanis Varoufakis on the subject.  He, as you can appreciate, is far better placed than most to apply a rigorous analysis to the subject.

 

Just never saw the point in being in Europe , Drew . Salmond has often compared Scotland to Norway , which I always thought was a good comparison since there are many similarities . They have perhaps managed things better and have managed to gain independence twice last century. .:)

I think it was better also when we traded with the Commonwealth . The fact that Edward Heath was bribed to join the Club of Rome was also wrong . I never expected our exit from the insideous scheme to be an easy one and I am aware of a pile of propaganda and political bullshit going on , most of which l manage to miss . I did catch Alistair Campbell saying we should have another vote and that we should stay in . .however in my opinion he is a bit of a c**t along with warmongering Tony who l also imagine is all for another vote. .so there are probably unsavoury characters on both sides of the argument . .

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2 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Just never saw the point in being in Europe , Drew . Salmond has often compared Scotland to Norway , which I always thought was a good comparison since there are many similarities . They have perhaps managed things better and have managed to gain independence twice last century. .:)

I think it was better also when we traded with the Commonwealth . The fact that Edward Heath was bribed to join the Club of Rome was also wrong . I never expected our exit from the insideous scheme to be an easy one and I am aware of a pile of propaganda and political bullshit going on , most of which l manage to miss . I did catch Alistair Campbell saying we should have another vote and that we should stay in . .however in my opinion he is a bit of a c**t along with warmongering Tony who l also imagine is all for another vote. .so there are probably unsavoury characters on both sides of the argument . .

I think there are plenty of benefits, but also considerable drawbacks.

The ERASMUS programme is great for young people, and, as a nation, we benefitted from numerous initiatives via EU funding that wouldn't have seen the light of day if left to rely on Westminster support and funding.

Yes, there are very significant systemic problems with the EU, but it has also, for example, enshrined human rights protections in a way that gives me greater confidence than if left to the shysters we generally have in government in the UK.

My ideal? An independent Scotland with some form of affiliation to the EU. What form this affiliation would have is up for debate.

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Guest TPAFKATS
So, after the divorce does it mean that England have to take Northern Ireland to the zoo every other Saturday?
They wouldn't get back out

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3 hours ago, Drew said:

I think there are plenty of benefits, but also considerable drawbacks.

The ERASMUS programme is great for young people, and, as a nation, we benefitted from numerous initiatives via EU funding that wouldn't have seen the light of day if left to rely on Westminster support and funding.

Yes, there are very significant systemic problems with the EU, but it has also, for example, enshrined human rights protections in a way that gives me greater confidence than if left to the shysters we generally have in government in the UK.

My ideal? An independent Scotland with some form of affiliation to the EU. What form this affiliation would have is up for debate.

I think our fellow countrymen will vote for a self=determined Scotland in the future , when the time comes it will be the right thing. .

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2 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I think our fellow countrymen will vote for a self=determined Scotland in the future , when the time comes it will be the right thing. .

Aye, I have faith in the generations that have come after us to do the right thing.

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8 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

 

I guess we see things differently, I feel it chimes with my OP that the eventual deal will be on the EU's terms. 

I agree with your second point that there's probably a few other countries waiting to see what happens to us before deciding what to do themselves but IMO that's just another reason for the EU to play hardball. 

There was never any doubt that leaving would have to be done under article50 conditions. I pushed for the EFTA/EEA route out as it delivers everything the leavers wanted INCLUDING full control over who is allowed into the country.  and full curbs on the so called four freedoms the EU is built on via article 112 of the EEA treaty. That will happen regardless. Trade wont be affected in the slightest nor do we pay a single penny into the EU budget as an EFTA country.  But politically this was burned by the lying bastards in the remain campaign. They shat their load about it and so its politically "difficult" to sell it. So we have to go through the rigmarole of getting a transition deal which is exactly the same in all but name.

 

Hey ho.

 

And soft Brexit it is.

 

BTW well over 80% of the rules of the single market are now enacted at WTO level and at other world organisations. Norway get their say there long before it ever hits the EU in tray.

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9 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:


 

 


Of the four EFTA members, Norway pays €115 per capita into the EU budget, Switzerland €12, Lichtenstein €40 and Iceland actually gets €25 per capita from the EU.

 

They don't pay anything into the EU budget. 

 

No idea where you get your info from, but that's total garbage.

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1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said:

I think it's that the other 3 get good deals. In comparison UK €79 (due to rebate), Italy €79, France €100, Germany €131, Netherlands €140. 

 

Also, the 4 EFTA countries have to adopt all single market legislation (e.g. Norway has incorporated approximately 75% of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation) and, relative to population, they received twice the inflow of EU migrants as the UK (based on 2013-14 data).

 

 

all single market legislation is deal with in the EEA treaty. Norway is free to adopt whatever EU legislation over and about the single market acquis that is chooses. Its not compelled in any way whatsoever. Here's part of a blog post Iworked on with another chap around three years ago

 

 

For sure, as part of the EEA package, there is provision for a range of financial contributions, but these include "Norway Grants", made by Norway to eastern enlargement countries to help with their post-Communist economic rehabilitation. 

In the period 2009-14, these grants amounted to €804 million, supporting 61 programmes in 13 countries in Europe including the member countries that joined in 2004 and 2007. But this money is not remitted to the EU and is not part of the EU budget. It is administered separately, under the aegis of the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

Norway also provides 95 percent of the funding to the EEA Grants. The two together amounted to €1.8bn over the period, of which €1.71bn was paid by Norway. As with the Norway grants, the EEA grants are not part of the EU budget. They are administered by the independent Financial Mechanism Committee.

These payments are part of the EEA agreement but they are not specifically payments for access to the Single Market. They are effectively part of Norway's strategy for co-operation with the EU. 

That, however, is not the full extent of relations. As of 2014, Norway participated in twelve EU programmes, including Horizon 2020, Erasmus +, the Consumer Programme and the Copernicus programme. It also has a bilateral arrangement for participation in interregional programmes under the EU's Regional Policy. 

Additionally, it takes part in the activities of 27 EU agencies. These include the Education, Audiovisual and Culture Executive Agency (EACEA), the European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders (FRONTEX), the European Agency for Safety and Health at Work (EU-OSHA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), the European Defence Agency (EDA), the Executive Agency for Health and Consumers (EAHC), the Research Executive Agency (REA) and the European Police College (CEPOL). 

As to the budget for these activities, over the 2007-2013 multi-annual period, total EU spending was around €70 billion, of which the estimated EFTA contribution was in the order of €1.7 billion – averaging approximately €250 million a year. Norway carried 95.77 percent of that cost (€1.63bn). 

This cash, therefore, is for services rendered and, even then, the funding was not one-way. Around €1.01bn was returned from EU funds, making the seven-year net contribution in the order of €620m - or about €90 million a year.

In the Seventh Framework (research) Programme, for instance, Icelandic and Norwegian participants, including many small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), were involved. Icelandic researchers were contributed to 217 projects, receiving funding of nearly €70 million. Norwegian researchers contributed to more than 1,400 projects, receiving €712 million. Both Iceland and Norway signed up to the successor programme, Horizon 2020. 

As to the specific EFTA contributions paid for the functioning of the Single Market, these come out of the EFTA budget, to which Norway pays its contribution. There is no direct payment to the EU. 

Currently the annual (2014) budget is 22,360,000 Swiss Francs (about £16 million), of which 55 percent is borne by Norway. This includes categories defined as EEA related activities, EFTA/EU statistical cooperation and EU/EFTA cooperation programmes. That, strictly, is the cost of Single Market Access which, on a pro-rata basis, would cost the UK less than £100 million per annum. 

However, if the total gross amount were taken for Norway's annual payments were taken, that would amount to about £500 million in real money. Should the UK leave the EU and rejoin the EEA, the pro-rata payment would amount to about £6 billion a year gross – just under a third of current gross payments – or about £4 billion net. If it is done on a GDP ratio, the UK's economy is five times the size of Norway's, we would pay £2.5 billion gross. Net, that might work out at as little as £1.8bn.
 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Sources: calculations based on European Commission data on the EU budget for EU countries, data received from the Directorate-General for Budget of the European Commission for the four non-EU countries upon request, Eurostat for GDP and population for all countries except GDP of Liechtenstein, which is based on UN data.

 

Your sources are wrong then. Plain and simple. Or deliberately misleading 

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25 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:
29 minutes ago, Reynard said:
You can then admit you were wrong and we can all move on. 

Wait a minute, your source is you? FFS!

The sources are shown. If you'd managed to read through it then you'd have seen that all sources of information are linked to.

 

You are trying to shoot the messenger rather than contributing anything worthwhile. You've been shown (with links) what Norway makes contributions to. Not a penny of that is to the EU budget. If you can prove otherwise then go for it.

 

You've been sold a lie sadly.

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It was a response to Oliver Kamm who was writing similar nonsense about Norway and EFTA countries in The Times. It was written prior to the referendum. So its not been a new thing to see this sort of total misinformation being spread around by ignoramuses and liars. Its clear that it works on some people who still think people like Kamm are "experts"

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41 minutes ago, Reynard said:

As to the specific EFTA contributions paid for the functioning of the Single Market, these come out of the EFTA budget, to which Norway pays its contribution. There is no direct payment to the EU. 

There is no direct payment to the EU, but there certainly are several indirect payments. The net result is the same!

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