shull Posted September 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: We could all be more dignified if the cnut just f**ked back off again. Clueless Clique getting slaughtered by an articulate and decent new poster and can only resort by severe abuse. Sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 36 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Get everyone who claims to be unemployed, for example, to report to a community centre, or other such location, for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Provide job search facilities for them and nothing else, except basic amenities (block mobile signals etc). Those who are genuinely looking for work would happily be able to use the facility. Those who are working on the side wouldn't be able to. Those who are employing people on the side wouldn't be able to and would have to employ folk properly and therefore increase the tax take for the government. Those who just want to lie in bed all day wouldn't be able to and would probably be so bored having to attend the place every day that they would consider actually going out and working. Those who would be buying or selling drugs wouldn't be able to and random police sniffer dog searches could enforce it in those locations being used. This would also help "clean up" our neighbourhoods. Yes, it would cost money to run those places but the money saved by "forcing" the lazy and those working on the side to actually get proper jobs, and the extra tax take from those jobs, would at least pay for some of it. Next week, my solution to "single mothers" who actually have partners staying with them. That isn't the type of benefit fraud being referred to in the stats quoted . The high value serious, organised fraud is pretty much entirely Housing Benefit fraud usually where a landlord makes multiple false claims for tenants that he has falsely provided evidence of. Also bigger frauds in disability benefits than in unemployment benefits or Council Tax reduction which are all low level frauds in comparison although that is bound to change with the rollout of Universal Credit gathering apace. Legislation is now so complex that resources that should be targeting fraud are routinely being diverted to claims processing. It's a great time to be entering the dodgy landlord business !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, oaksoft said: I got as far as the ridiculous claim that 1 in 5 people are in poverty and I stopped. All credibility is lost when they continually spout that viewpoint. It is patently ridiculous that we have poverty levels that high. Once someone starts publishing credible data which shows the extent of the problem properly I will be happy to discuss. It would be interesting to see how often the same person uses foodbanks. For an average of two visits across those stats, I imagine a small handful are using them a lot. That would lend weight to my prediction that the real problem only involves a handful of people. Translation: I won't read anything that remotely disputes my blinkered and biased view of my REALITY. All credibility is lost on me as I don't want to be wrong. Everyone else's point of view will be right when they totally agree with me. Once someone publishes credible data data that bolsters my take on things then I will be happy to discuss I wonder if I can twist the figures by claiming a thousand uses by each family. Anything to allow me to claim I'm right and the rest are wrong. That's why there is NO point discussing with a closed mind who won't even entertain the possibility of error even in the face of independent analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick Hunt Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said: That isn't the type of benefit fraud being referred to in the stats quoted . The high value serious, organised fraud is pretty much entirely Housing Benefit fraud usually where a landlord makes multiple false claims for tenants that he has falsely provided evidence of. Also bigger frauds in disability benefits than in unemployment benefits or Council Tax reduction which are all low level frauds in comparison although that is bound to change with the rollout of Universal Credit gathering apace. Legislation is now so complex that resources that should be targeting fraud are routinely being diverted to claims processing. It's a great time to be entering the dodgy landlord business !!! In other words, the majority of benefit fraud is actually perpetrated by rich people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Warwick Hunt said: In other words, the majority of benefit fraud is actually perpetrated by rich people? Pretty much, it's how they get rich in the first place. A lot of that money flows straight out the UK too intensifying the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 9 hours ago, faraway saint said: I thought you were Bellsideend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: I got as far as the ridiculous claim that 1 in 5 people are in poverty and I stopped. All credibility is lost when they continually spout that viewpoint. It is patently ridiculous that we have poverty levels that high. Once someone starts publishing credible data which shows the extent of the problem properly I will be happy to discuss. It would be interesting to see how often the same person uses foodbanks. For an average of two visits across those stats, I imagine a small handful are using them a lot. That would lend weight to my prediction that the real problem only involves a handful of people. It depends on how you define poverty. Usually it is defined as a proportion of the median wage, but occasionally a measure "able to participate in society," is used. This figure includes such things as being able to afford entertainment, to have a tv and mobile phone, to afford a takeaway once a month and other quite small luxuries. It doesn't included being able to run a car or to pay a mortgage or take a holiday abroad. You might think the things listed above are trivial but for those without these things they end up being stigmatised and further disadvantaged. Just as at one point people thought shoes were a luxury, but if you didn't have shoes you were immediately recognised as a pauper. 20&% of the UK population not being able to fulfil all of these requirements sounds about right to me, from what I've read. Although most of them will be able to afford SOME of the things on the list but not all. One of the really great things that the SNP has done is give free prescriptions which means we don't have people that cant afford to properly medicate themselves for various illnesses. More still to be done, and if you can't see the problems we have with poverty then you need to get out more. Edited September 7, 2017 by insaintee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Slartibartfast said: And stop giving me ideas. Too late. Anyone want to rent a flat in Port Glasgow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted September 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 Just now, insaintee said: Too late. Anyone want to rent a flat in Port Glasgow Is that the empty one next to me ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, shull said: Is that the empty one next to me ? No wonder it's fecking empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Naw. It's all right a nice family just arrived from Eastern Europe have moved in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: Some very good posts on this thread and some strong opinions. If those who only want to post personal abuse could go and pollute another thread that would be great. Cock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted September 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 16 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: He's talking about flats, not heads. 15 minutes ago, faraway saint said: No wonder it's fecking empty. Pair of Bassas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 Translation: I won't read anything that remotely disputes my blinkered and biased view of my REALITY. All credibility is lost on me as I don't want to be wrong. Everyone else's point of view will be right when they totally agree with me. Once someone publishes credible data data that bolsters my take on things then I will be happy to discuss I wonder if I can twist the figures by claiming a thousand uses by each family. Anything to allow me to claim I'm right and the rest are wrong. That's why there is NO point discussing with a closed mind who won't even entertain the possibility of error even in the face of independent analysis. Hmmm. The 'armpit' that you quoted chooses to ignore research based evidence as it doesn't fit with his opinion . I wonder if he still claims to be a scientist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick Hunt Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 30 minutes ago, insaintee said: One of the really great things that the SNP has done is give free prescriptions which means we don't have people that cant afford to properly medicate themselves for various illnesses. Prescriptions were already free for people on low incomes anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: We could all be more dignified if the cnut just f**ked back off again. Even if it is him, he isn't the one chucking around personal abuse. I have no problem with people who have a strong difference of opinion to me. TBH I have no idea why people keep pouncing on those who do. None of these discussion matter anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 Comedy gold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, stlucifer said: Translation: I won't read anything that remotely disputes my blinkered and biased view of my REALITY. That's why there is NO point discussing with a closed mind who won't even entertain the possibility of error even in the face of independent analysis. I can't win unless I simply accept your point of view. I DID read it. I DONT agree with it. I explained WHY I didn't agree with it. The whole thing is based on the ridiculous assumption that 1 in 5 are in poverty. If that is wrong, there is no point reading further. Nothing wrong with me holding that considered view. And there is nothing wrong with you holding your considered view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 54 minutes ago, insaintee said: It depends on how you define poverty. Usually it is defined as a proportion of the median wage, but occasionally a measure "able to participate in society," is used. This figure includes such things as being able to afford entertainment, to have a tv and mobile phone, to afford a takeaway once a month and other quite small luxuries. It doesn't included being able to run a car or to pay a mortgage or take a holiday abroad. You might think the things listed above are trivial but for those without these things they end up being stigmatised and further disadvantaged. Just as at one point people thought shoes were a luxury, but if you didn't have shoes you were immediately recognised as a pauper. 20&% of the UK population not being able to fulfil all of these requirements sounds about right to me, from what I've read. Although most of them will be able to afford SOME of the things on the list but not all. One of the really great things that the SNP has done is give free prescriptions which means we don't have people that cant afford to properly medicate themselves for various illnesses. More still to be done, and if you can't see the problems we have with poverty then you need to get out more. Look, we all know poverty when we see it FFS and they are incorrectly describing it. The idea that if you earn say £15k you can't participate in society is just plain wrong. BTW, that last sentence? You lefties just can't say anything without leaving a trailing leg can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: I can't win unless I simply accept your point of view. I DID read it. I DONT agree with it. I explained WHY I didn't agree with it. The whole thing is based on the ridiculous assumption that 1 in 5 are in poverty. If that is wrong, there is no point reading further. Nothing wrong with me holding that considered view. And there is nothing wrong with you holding your considered view. But your explanation is that you don't believe it. No facts to support this lack of belief. Just that you must be right, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Look, we all know poverty when we see it FFS and they are incorrectly describing it. The idea that if you earn say £15k you can't participate in society is just plain wrong. BTW, that last sentence? You lefties just can't say anything without leaving a trailing leg can you? I'm not a leftie, I'm a frenchie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, stlucifer said: But your explanation is that you don't believe it. No facts to support this lack of belief. Just that you must be right, Don't believe what FFS? Look, I simply don't accept that 60% of the median wage is a legitimate measure of poverty. I have a very different vision of poverty. That's in a nutshell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, oaksoft said: Don't believe what FFS? Look, I simply don't accept that 60% of the median wage is a legitimate measure of poverty. I have a very different vision of poverty. That's in a nutshell. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 4 minutes ago, stlucifer said: But your explanation is that you don't believe it. No facts to support this lack of belief. Just that you must be right, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Look, we all know poverty when we see it FFS and they are incorrectly describing it. The idea that if you earn say £15k you can't participate in society is just plain wrong. BTW, that last sentence? You lefties just can't say anything without leaving a trailing leg can you? The level is not 15K. The table below works out at about 5k. I think that is right Family Composition Per month Per year Lone parent (2 children) £1,261 £15,132 Couple (2 children) £1,703 £20,436 Worked example Slum landlord £600 Utilties £100 Food £400 Clothes £100 Travel £ 100 Opps not working Edited September 7, 2017 by insaintee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 Just now, insaintee said: The level is not 15K. The table below works out at about 5k. I think that is right Family Composition Per month Per year Lone parent (2 children) £1,261 £15,132 Couple (2 children) £1,703 £20,436 Whit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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