Grangemouth no more?

[beyond our ken]

As this process of de-industialisation continues, the effects become more fundamental and damaging, if this place closes in 18 months time then I really don't know where Scotland goes from here.

Sunak happily announces that the new oil licences will provide energy security, although he knows the oil will go straight into the global trading system and very little of it lands in the UK.  Let's see if he is truly committed to energy security by supporting the site, no doubt in my mind that it would be saved if it was in England.

Ineos have been sweating the asset for decades and now that he has enough money to buy a football club, Ratface-Ratcliffe will be moving refinery operations to the far-east.  I doubt that any part of the complex will be left in a fit state for a competitor to take it over and  If north-sea gas stops flowing into Grangemouth then Mossmorran and Braefoot bay will be under threat, another 1000 jobs going when you include contractors.  Maybe 5 times that in the local economy.

If we were investing properly in biofuels, we would also have a relatively healthy future for petroleum in the medium term, but the UK just lets the far-east carry on churning out the carbon and offshoring our emissions

[faraway saint]

2 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

As this process of de-industialisation continues, the effects become more fundamental and damaging, if this place closes in 18 months time then I really don't know where Scotland goes from here.

Sunak happily announces that the new oil licences will provide energy security, although he knows the oil will go straight into the global trading system and very little of it lands in the UK.  Let's see if he is truly committed to energy security by supporting the site, no doubt in my mind that it would be saved if it was in England.

Ineos have been sweating the asset for decades and now that he has enough money to buy a football club, Ratface-Ratcliffe will be moving refinery operations to the far-east.  I doubt that any part of the complex will be left in a fit state for a competitor to take it over and  If north-sea gas stops flowing into Grangemouth then Mossmorran and Braefoot bay will be under threat, another 1000 jobs going when you include contractors.  Maybe 5 times that in the local economy.

If we were investing properly in biofuels, we would also have a relatively healthy future for petroleum in the medium term, but the UK just lets the far-east carry on churning out the carbon and offshoring our emissions

Dodged a bullet then by voting "No" for independence as the SNP were looking to provide us all the promised land based on oil and gas revenue.

Whew. 👍

[shull]

Opportunity to build the fourth Stand at the Falkirk Stadium.

[beyond our ken]

13 hours ago, shull said:

Opportunity to build the fourth Stand at the Falkirk Stadium.

Unemployed only.

[beyond our ken]

14 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Dodged a bullet then by voting "No" for independence as the SNP were looking to provide us all the promised land based on oil and gas revenue.

Whew. 👍

With independence the opportunity for a far faster transition to Renewable energy would have gone hand-in-hand with the just transition away from oil.

[faraway saint]

27 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

With independence the opportunity for a far faster transition to Renewable energy would have gone hand-in-hand with the just transition away from oil.

Would it? 

Easy to say.

I'd suggest not nearly as easy to actually happen. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by faraway saint

[ianmac]

30 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

With independence the opportunity for a far faster transition to Renewable energy would have gone hand-in-hand with the just transition away from oil.

I just read that that Norway have heat pumps installed in two thirds of their houses. I wonder where they got the money to do that?

‘You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold | Energy | The Guardian

Edited November 23, 2023 by ianmac

[W6er]

There's no question, IMHO, that Scotland has been robbed of her wealth since the 1970s. It seems a report into the wealth generated by the oil industry was suppressed due to fears it would drive Scottish independence - https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23348407.truth-behind-mccrone-report-means-scotland/ . I'm well aware of The National is a biased source, btw, but it is surely quite obvious that had the oil wealth been shared amongst 5 million people, instead of 50 million+ it would have made Scotland a very prosperous country.

I don't like the SNP, however they're essentially an umbrella organisation for nationalists - a broad church focused on achieving that objective. The party would likely be dissolved once it had been achieved. 

[Albanian Buddy]

1 minute ago, W6er said:

a broad church focused on achieving that objective. 

Point well made but stop bring religion into everything. Somner 6:9

[antrin]

5 hours ago, W6er said:

There's no question, IMHO, that Scotland has been robbed of her wealth since the 1970s. It seems a report into the wealth generated by the oil industry was suppressed due to fears it would drive Scottish independence - https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23348407.truth-behind-mccrone-report-means-scotland/ . I'm well aware of The National is a biased source, btw, but it is surely quite obvious that had the oil wealth been shared amongst 5 million people, instead of 50 million+ it would have made Scotland a very prosperous country.

I don't like the SNP, however they're essentially an umbrella organisation for nationalists - a broad church focused on achieving that objective. The party would likely be dissolved once it had been achieved. 

On the other hand, if that oil wealth was kept in Shetland, Orkney and North East Scotland, it would have made them very prosperous communities.

Or…

… if the wealth continually generated by London was totally retained in the South East of England, then the SE of England would be the fat underbelly of the UK.

Or.. if my auntie had baws….  Etc.

 

 I always loathed Thatcher, however that didn’t change the real world..

[faraway saint]

Oh, the Michael Matheson saga continues as an official enquiey is on its way.

Roamin in the gloamin. 🤣

[ianmac]

Regardless of whether it was Scotland's oil or the UK's oil, it should have been invested in an oil fund like Norway did.

[Albanian Buddy]

45 minutes ago, ianmac said:

Regardless of whether it was Scotland's oil or the UK's oil, it should have been invested in an oil fund like Norway did.

It kinda was “invested” into London centric projects. 😜 But yeah. That would be great had the UK the foresight to invest in long term passive trackers. 

This is the stuff you can see above ground. Not forgetting all the money invested underground - Channel tunnel, Cross rail, Elizabeth line etc etc. 

[Albanian Buddy]

Currently Norway sitting around 15,715 billion kroner. More than half of the fund's value is return on the investments, and totaled to 7,871 billion kroner.

https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/Market-Value/

Watch compound interest do its thing for Norway as it did for one of the richest and wisest investors. 

[Slarti]

It kinda was “invested” into London centric projects. [emoji12] But yeah. That would be great had the UK the foresight to invest in long term passive trackers. 

This is the stuff you can see above ground. Not forgetting all the money invested underground - Channel tunnel, Cross rail, Elizabeth line etc etc. 

It also paid for the unemployment benefit for all those workshy miners/steel workers/etc.

[W6er]

2 hours ago, antrin said:

On the other hand, if that oil wealth was kept in Shetland, Orkney and North East Scotland, it would have made them very prosperous communities.

Or…

… if the wealth continually generated by London was totally retained in the South East of England, then the SE of England would be the fat underbelly of the UK.

Or.. if my auntie had baws….  Etc.

 

 I always loathed Thatcher, however that didn’t change the real world..

 

It was the deceit that's irksome, Antrin! 

I referred to the media earlier. That's because people's choices are influenced by the information they're provided. The fact is the Scottish people may well have opted out of the Union. Not only could we have been 'that nation again', but we could have been a very prosperous one.

It's a bit like a used car salesman convincing an old lady that the piece of junk on the forecourt is actually a reliable motor. She wouldn't have bought it if she knew all the facts, but she was deceived. She trusted the salesman. if the Scottish people had known about the benefits of the oil, we quite possibly would be living in an independent country right now...and when I saw 'we', I include you in that.  

[faraway saint]

2 minutes ago, W6er said:

 

It was the deceit that's irksome, Antrin! 

I referred to the media earlier. That's because people's choices are influenced by the information they're provided. The fact is the Scottish people may well have opted out of the Union. Not only could we have been 'that nation again', but we could have been a very prosperous one.

 

Deceit and people are influenced by the media?

That works both ways and the idea that we could have been a prosperous nation was NEVER convincing enough, despite the attempts by nationalists to sell the anti English rhetoric as reason enough.

Anyhow, its, thankfully, over and the "nation" is doing ok. 

[W6er]

34 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Deceit and people are influenced by the media?

That works both ways and the idea that we could have been a prosperous nation was NEVER convincing enough, despite the attempts by nationalists to sell the anti English rhetoric as reason enough.

Anyhow, its, thankfully, over and the "nation" is doing ok. 

Oh, I see why people on here insinuate you're a Rangers man!  

Nation is in quotation marks, which implies you do not even accept Scotland is a nation! 

As for the text in bold, that's quite literally my point. Had the truth been revealed, then the people of Scotland would have been convinced! Which is precisely why Westminster suppressed the true extent of the wealth that lay off Scotland's shores. 

[Slarti]

 
It was the deceit that's irksome, Antrin! 
I referred to the media earlier. That's because people's choices are influenced by the information they're provided. The fact is the Scottish people may well have opted out of the Union. Not only could we have been 'that nation again', but we could have been a very prosperous one.
It's a bit like a used car salesman convincing an old lady that the piece of junk on the forecourt is actually a reliable motor. She wouldn't have bought it if she knew all the facts, but she was deceived. She trusted the salesman. if the Scottish people had known about the benefits of the oil, we quite possibly would be living in an independent country right now...and when I saw 'we', I include you in that. [emoji4] 

Don't be daft, antrin had been retired about 27 years by that time, he wouldn't have come back, he was settled in Inglundshire.

[antrin]

47 minutes ago, Slarti said:

3 hours ago, W6er said:

 
It was the deceit that's irksome, Antrin! 
I referred to the media earlier. That's because people's choices are influenced by the information they're provided. The fact is the Scottish people may well have opted out of the Union. Not only could we have been 'that nation again', but we could have been a very prosperous one.
It's a bit like a used car salesman convincing an old lady that the piece of junk on the forecourt is actually a reliable motor. She wouldn't have bought it if she knew all the facts, but she was deceived. She trusted the salesman. if the Scottish people had known about the benefits of the oil, we quite possibly would be living in an independent country right now...and when I saw 'we', I include you in that.  

Don't be daft, antrin had been retired about 27 years by that time, he wouldn't have come back, he was settled in Inglundshire.

I actually joined the oil industry when I left Linwood…

I guess it’s all my fault.  

 

(btw all those pix of soaring developments in London were financed by private companies investing in the city - NOT by Scottish oil.  Though I do concede the government invested a fair bit in the infrastructure to support the circa 30ish million people in the SE.)

[Slarti]

I actually joined the oil industry when I left Linwood…
I guess it’s all my fault.  [emoji20]
 
(btw all those pix of soaring developments in London were financed by private companies investing in the city - NOT by Scottish oil.  Though I do concede the government invested a fair bit in the infrastructure to support the circa 30ish million people in the SE.)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. When I said you had been retired 27 years by "that time", that "that time" I was referring to wasn't when the oil was discovered, I was actually referring to when it started forming. [emoji12]

[faraway saint]

8 hours ago, W6er said:

Oh, I see why people on here insinuate you're a Rangers man!  

Nation is in quotation marks, which implies you do not even accept Scotland is a nation! 

As for the text in bold, that's quite literally my point. Had the truth been revealed, then the people of Scotland would have been convinced! Which is precisely why Westminster suppressed the true extent of the wealth that lay off Scotland's shores. 

1st part that's in bold...............................Does it? 

And the 2nd bit in bold? 

If you're going to start to state that "YOUR" perception is some sort of fact then I'm afraid you're, IMO, living in a fantasy world, in which many of the independence voters also live. 

Why, if this is so much of a sure thing, is the independence idea in tatters?

IF your view had an ounce of truth then, surely, there would have been a massive swing towards independence. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by faraway saint

[W6er]

1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

1st part that's in bold...............................Does it? 

And the 2nd bit in bold? 

If you're going to start to state that "YOUR" perception is some sort of fact then I'm afraid you're, IMO, living in a fantasy world, in which many of the independence voters also live. 

Why, if this is so much of a sure thing, is the independence idea in tatters?

IF your view had an ounce of truth then, surely, there would have been a massive swing towards independence. 

1st part: Aye. Thanks for sharing your "informed" opinion with me, Faraway Saint.

2nd part: Because the referendum was about forty years too late and most of the oil had been used up by then!

'The McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office using some information that was publicly available at the time and some that was not. The document gave a favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". It also noted that the Common Market or EEC meant that Scotland could pivot away from the rest of UK (if required) for trade. The memo from UK Civil Servants to UK Government ministers was classified “secret”; some have argued that this was to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect.'^[1][2]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

I think most Scots would want to have lived in a country with a "chronic surplus to quite an embarrassing degree." We would have been like Norway. As you can see, the memo was classified. The report only became public in 2005.

 

 

[Albanian Buddy]

7 hours ago, antrin said:

(btw all those pix of soaring developments in London were financed by private companies investing in the city - NOT by Scottish oil. 

Twas a joke. Hence the 😜 but you knew that. 

[faraway saint]

1 minute ago, W6er said:

1st part: Aye. Thanks for sharing your "informed" opinion with me, Faraway Saint.

2nd part: Because the referendum was about forty years too late and most of the oil had been used up by then!

'The McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office using some information that was publicly available at the time and some that was not. The document gave a favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". It also noted that the Common Market or EEC meant that Scotland could pivot away from the rest of UK (if required) for trade. The memo from UK Civil Servants to UK Government ministers was classified “secret”; some have argued that this was to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect.'^[1][2]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

I think most Scots would want to have lived in a country with a "chronic surplus to quite an embarrassing degree." We would have been like Norway. As you can see, the memo was classified. The report only became public in 2005.

 

 

40 years too late. 🤣🤣🤣

You're funny.