The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[bud77]

Given that these plans should now be at an advanced stage and some financial input will be required from the fans, I think it might be a good time to do some market research and find out what sort of in principle commitment there might be. A broad outline of the plans with payment option(s) may make or break this deal. For my own part, here are some of the things I would like to know before deciding whether to invest or not.

Level of financial input required - one of the problems with the last 2 share issues was the minimum amount.

Would it be a one off payment, monthly, annual ?

Would there be different levels eg unemployed, juvenile (a very small pocket money investment but start them early), family rates ?

What type of benefits would be envisaged for the investors ?

But most importantly for me, will the club have a proper consultation with the fans and take into account their views and feelings before the next round of talks on league reconstruction. This is probably the biggest thing facing football just now and members of the current board could vote for something the fans don't want just before leaving the club. It would also be a good exercise on how the CIC might work.

There would be no need to go into fine detail on the deal but it would give Mr Atkinson some idea of the input that can be expected from the fans.

[shull]

I grudgingly pay for an overpriced Season Ticket.

I'm paying f*ck all more for anything else.

[Big Fras]

Given that these plans should now be at an advanced stage and some financial input will be required from the fans, I think it might be a good time to do some market research and find out what sort of in principle commitment there might be. A broad outline of the plans with payment option(s) may make or break this deal. For my own part, here are some of the things I would like to know before deciding whether to invest or not.

Level of financial input required - one of the problems with the last 2 share issues was the minimum amount.

Would it be a one off payment, monthly, annual ?

Would there be different levels eg unemployed, juvenile (a very small pocket money investment but start them early), family rates ?

What type of benefits would be envisaged for the investors ?

But most importantly for me, will the club have a proper consultation with the fans and take into account their views and feelings before the next round of talks on league reconstruction. This is probably the biggest thing facing football just now and members of the current board could vote for something the fans don't want just before leaving the club. It would also be a good exercise on how the CIC might work.

There would be no need to go into fine detail on the deal but it would give Mr Atkinson some idea of the input that can be expected from the fans.

Shock ! Horror ! Outbreak of reasonable common sense from forum member. I'm sure Minister for Propaganda (Div) will be along to tell us that Richard was planning all of this anyway, so don't worry. Apparently Atkinson has been working on this for months......so why the above hasn't been addressed by now is a wee bit surprising. Or maybe he likes the thrill of a gamble ?

Edited February 11, 2011 by Big Fras

[Seaside Nipper]

I grudgingly pay for an overpriced Season Ticket.

I'm paying f*ck all more for anything else.

Shull, when your basic running costs increase, do you deliberately reduce your fares , just curious

[div]

I did not want to see his deepest secrets - just the financial mechanism which he intends to use and what will happen if any loans cannot be repaid.

Pick up the phone and ask him abacus boy.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Do your own research.

Have a look at the Official Club Statement that was issued ages ago. No-one would be able to answer why Richard is doing this except him. Pick up the phone, send him an email etc and ask him. Asking people who don't know that answer in a football forum is not the way to find the answer.

Keep looking before excitedly posting...

Ok, here goes, as best as I understand... The CiC obtain the loan/grant money, from the SIF, and use it to buy 52% of the shares. The said CiC effectively own the club as it has the majority share-hold. The CiC is owned and run by members - fans, local charities and companies, probably based on a vote type system but those details will be ironed out in due course. Therefore the fans, local charities, companies effectively run the club. One person, one vote - I'd assume. The whole reason that the SIF (lenders) are making sure that it viable and returnable is because it is soft. They want to make sure that it will be paid back and they will only invest it to groups who can prove that they have a good enough plan in place to return it. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that... It's good stewardship - if they are going to loan something, they want to ensure that the debtor is able to pay back - especially because it can't be legally enforced if it is defaulted on. The CiC are the debtor, it is used to pay for the shares that are being sold - the club won't own the debt, the CiC will. Only the CiC can default on it, not the club. If they do it can't be recalled legally (as far as I am aware) and so this is why the lenders (SIF) want to make sure that the borrowers (CiC) have a good enough plan in place to generate the finance to pay back.

I've said the same thing twice in two ways, hopefully it makes sense now. God, it is rather complicated when you look at it - but brilliant if it works!

Thanks ktf and sorry to everyone if I have annoyed you with my posts. The intention was better understanding

[div]

I'm sure Minister for Propaganda (Div) will be along to tell us that Richard was planning all of this anyway, so don't worry.

Fair enough criticism, that wasn't my intention, rather to try and give out what information I could since that seemed to be what was being asked for. Since I don't understand the full picture maybe I am better saying nothing so you'll get no more from me on this subject.

[davidg]

St Sid you say:-

There is no down side, but it won't stop some dafty trying to invent some.

But if you read this quote:-

"Can a CIC revert to its original status?

Once a company becomes a CIC it cannot return to its original status as a normal company; its only option is to become a full Charity."

I'd say that's a definite down side!

1st post on page 2 of this topic, St Mirren will not become a CIC.

[Seaside Nipper]

Fair enough criticism, that wasn't my intention, rather to try and give out what information I could since that seemed to be what was being asked for. Since I don't understand the full picture maybe I am better saying nothing so you'll get no more from me on this subject.

oh dear

Point here surely is that the club ( for what seems like ever now ) has a BoD who are wanting out of it...................therefore the club is thrust into a phase of uncertainty and mired in a fog of uncertainty. In short, this has been the case for far too long now

Therefore as a result, the natural reaction is curiosity, anxiety, interest, paranoia, optimism , pessimism in various levels and fans naturally look for the way ahead, the what when where how why ??????

The very poor state of affairs at present with the club is clearly reflected with the post above. When for the love of the wee man is someone going to come out and give us , the fans, some update, sound bite, some copy on where we are and what to expect.

This can be done without any firm commitment on time line, any revealing of commercial sensitivities on detail, yet at the same time demonstrates that things are in fact going somewhere , in some direction at least. Fans don't want all the detailed minutiae, they want an overview on progress.

There is nothing quite as damaging as an adopted silence as Div has just demonstrated

[IainC]

Fair enough criticism, that wasn't my intention, rather to try and give out what information I could since that seemed to be what was being asked for. Since I don't understand the full picture maybe I am better saying nothing so you'll get no more from me on this subject.

I have read this thread through and through and am still undecided on many things in relation to this deal .........many questions left unanswered but also (cant believe am saying this) some very valid and sometimes almost reasoned posts from Sid and ktf

So if Div, Tsu (or anyone) can you pm me Richards email address as there are a multitude of questions I have on the subject and they are not for the forum for lots of reason.

Thanks

[smfcok]

...

Any information that could legally be shared by the club could be scrutinised in a helpful way by our community, before committing to anything.

It might just help.

Sid, the point I was making above relates to how the club has ignored it's community within, ie us fans.

We all want our club to suceed and if utilised correctly, we are actually a great untapped resource for the club in terms of our diverse expertise, knowledge, experience/s etc

A simple example that you can relate to, without being publicly over-critical of the club, is that of the away strip.

One post on here as a market research exercise would have shown immediately that it should have been a non-starter.

[TsuMirren]

St Sid you say:-

There is no down side, but it won't stop some dafty trying to invent some.

But if you read this quote:-

"Can a CIC revert to its original status?

Once a company becomes a CIC it cannot return to its original status as a normal company; its only option is to become a full Charity."

I'd say that's a definite down side!

Saint Mirren Ltd is not becoming a CIC though, the CIC has been formed and will take on the 52% of the shares. There's no "no way back for Saint Mirren", no slicing and dicing, no asset stripping and no "we're here to run the club, trust us". It's all about each of us, if you want to learn more then contact Richard and if you want to mouth off then fair enough...each to their own. Even if the CIC sold every player, the ground and Ralston all money would have to go back in to Saint Mirren.

[ktf]

Why do you assume that? I'd suggest the CiC will be looking for investment and I'd imagine there'll be a minimum entry level (it was £200 when I bought my shares back in 1996) but they'd accept more from those that can afford it (after all there'll be the bulk of £2M to pay back somehow ). I think it's natural that someone investing more than the minimum would want a bigger say in proportion to their investment.

Taking things to an extreme - what's to stop someone owning 52% of the CiC (that's just 26.04% of the total shares) controlling the club and freezing out everyone else?

I'm agin it!

Actually, the CiC will be run on a membership basis, let's say something like £10/month for an individual fan, £1000/year for a local charity and £10,000/year for a local business. AFAIAA the original quota of local companies and charities has already been covered. That is already a substantial amount of money coming in without individual fan membership recruitment having started. However as far as I can work out the membership fees won't necessarily be contributing to the repayment of the loans - they will be paid back by boosting the existing revenue of the club - like something close to doubling the corporate income, this will be the sort of plan that the SIF people will be looking closely at to ensure is robust enough to pay back the loans. The membership fee's will immediately be invested back into the club.

However, if the membership fees do go to contributing to the loan repayment then, from a quick few sums I have done in my head in less than a minute (he figures of which I don't think I should share at present - partly because I may just have made them up), coupled with the projected increase in corporate revenue, then I reckon the loans could be paid off in somewhere between 5 and 10 years... I may be completely off with this, however if I am even close, then it seems to me like a good amount of time to have to wait to get a truly community owned-community led club.

[St. Sid]

Really glad I started all this. Its been well worthwhile. Even putting up with the usual abuse.

Here we all are 3 days, 200 posts, 7500 views later.

NO definitive answers but lots of if / but / maybe / as far as I know / as far as I am aware / heard that / think it / could be etc etc etc.

NO word from Mr. Atkinson I see.

I did not want to see his deepest secrets - just the financial mechanism which he intends to use and what will happen if any loans cannot be repaid.

I will check back on Monday to see if any anything concrete has arrived.

So despite the open invitation from Div to put you in contact with Richard you haven't bothered your @rse and are content to throw doubt from the cheap seats. Hard to believe that a genuine Saints fan would chose to take delight in heckling attempts to progress the club - I think there was a creepy wee accountant guy that was marched out of SMiSA for behaviour like this - is that you?

[Drew]

The very poor state of affairs at present with the club is clearly reflected with the post above. When for the love of the wee man is someone going to come out and give us , the fans, some update, sound bite, some copy on where we are and what to expect.

This can be done without any firm commitment on time line, any revealing of commercial sensitivities on detail, yet at the same time demonstrates that things are in fact going somewhere , in some direction at least. Fans don't want all the detailed minutiae, they want an overview on progress.

There is nothing quite as damaging as an adopted silence as Div has just demonstrated

Do you really want sound bites?

See all this uncertainty and anxiety that is being spoken of, I reckon a key point is being missed here. Gilmour and co. are still around. Love 'em or loathe 'em, they've stuck around and I suspect the main reason for this was to ensure that there was a safety net in place in place while Mr Atkinson and his colleague/s scoped out options.

I think we're going to have to trust Messrs Gilmour and Campbell et al on this one. They could have bailed before now, as we know there have been approaches from other parties to buy the club. Why are they sticking around? Well, we can only assume it is because they want to ensure a smooth and successful transition in the ownership of the club. Why else would they be hanging about? I'm not a huge fan of some of things Mr Gilmour has been involved in (eg: cooking up this preposterous new league set-up), but I don't doubt his commitment to St Mirren - not for one second. He might not always hit the right note, in my no doubt woefully erratic and misguided view, but he has done the club a damn site more good than ill.

The club would be in a much more precarious state had Stewart Gilmour and George Campbell bolted as Atkinson and his colleague (whose name escapes me for the moment - apologies for that) come in. As things stand, the 52 percent ownership remains exactly where it was. We have a buffer in place, and that's a lot more than can be said for many clubs. If Mr Atkinson's plans fail to compute, I don't think ownership will be transferred - it's as simple as that. So, on reflection, it seems to me that this whole business is being conducted in a sensible and secure manner.

Would it be good to know a bit more about what is occuring behind the scene? Yes, of course it would. Is it imperative that Mr Atkinson comes on here to account for his actions, explain his plans, and answer all our questions (however spurious and convoluted they might be)? Nope, I don't think so. We have a BoD in place who will be scrutinising every stroke of the pen. If they weren't interested in doing this, Gilmour and Campbell could have been well off the scene.

I'm now bored repeating the same thing. Questions are reasonable, and scepticism is healthy. Patience is a virtue, though.

[Seaside Nipper]

Do you really want sound bites?

ok , update then, my shabby choice of language

See all this uncertainty and anxiety that is being spoken of, I reckon a key point is being missed here. Gilmour and co. are still around. Love 'em or loathe 'em, they've stuck around and I suspect the main reason for this was to ensure that there was a safety net in place in place while Mr Atkinson and his colleague/s scoped out options.

I think we're going to have to trust Messrs Gilmour and Campbell et al on this one. They could have bailed before now, as we know there have been approaches from other parties to buy the club. Why are they sticking around? Well, we can only assume it is because they want to ensure a smooth and successful transition in the ownership of the club. Why else would they be hanging about? I'm not a huge fan of some of things Mr Gilmour has been involved in (eg: cooking up this preposterous new league set-up), but I don't doubt his commitment to St Mirren - not for one second. He might not always hit the right note, in my no doubt woefully erratic and misguided view, but he has done the club a damn site more good than ill.

The club would be in a much more precarious state had Stewart Gilmour and George Campbell bolted as Atkinson and his colleague (whose name escapes me for the moment - apologies for that) come in. As things stand, the 52 percent ownership remains exactly where it was. We have a buffer in place, and that's a lot more than can be said for many clubs. If Mr Atkinson's plans fail to compute, I don't think ownership will be transferred - it's as simple as that. So, on reflection, it seems to me that this whole business is being conducted in a sensible and secure manner.

Would it be good to know a bit more about what is occuring behind the scene? Yes, of course it would. Is it imperative that Mr Atkinson comes on here to account for his actions, explain his plans, and answer all our questions (however spurious and convoluted they might be)? Nope, I don't think so. We have a BoD in place who will be scrutinising every stroke of the pen. If they weren't interested in doing this, Gilmour and Campbell could have been well off the scene.

I'm now bored repeating the same thing. Questions are reasonable, and scepticism is healthy. Patience is a virtue, though.

Thanks, so, as I say, I think the time is now here for 'a statement or update'............don't think that's too unreasonable

However, I suppose from the BoD persepctive, do the fans have any right at all to know anything about this ..............heh hoh

[St. Sid]

St Sid you say:-

There is no down side, but it won't stop some dafty trying to invent some.

But if you read this quote:-

"Can a CIC revert to its original status?

Once a company becomes a CIC it cannot return to its original status as a normal company; its only option is to become a full Charity."

I'd say that's a definite down side!

I am not going to provide any additional information, unlike some other posters. What I will say on your perceived downside is that the opposite is true. The multiple levels of organisation offers greater protection than a single owner taking control of the club as happened at Gretna and so many other clubs we always harp on about. That model would deliver the highest risk to the club. If the individuals finances go wrong then we would either lose the club or it woyuld be left wide open to an asset stripper and there would be f"k aw the fans could do about it.

[Drew]

Thanks, so, as I say, I think the time is now here for 'a statement or update'............don't think that's too unreasonable

However, I suppose from the BoD persepctive, do the fans have any right at all to know anything about this ..............heh hoh

How many times has it been suggested on this thread that people pick up the 'phone and call Richard Atkinson, or send him an email?

Statements are hollow, manufactured, and consist largely of....yes, you guessed it, sound bites.

I'd imagine you'd get a great deal more information of greater worth if you contacted the man directly.

What's up? Too shy?

Edited February 11, 2011 by Drew

[St. Sid]

Thanks, so, as I say, I think the time is now here for 'a statement or update'............don't think that's too unreasonable

However, I suppose from the BoD persepctive, do the fans have any right at all to know anything about this ..............heh hoh

I have tried to think of a way to respond to this with the least possible level of abuse so here goes:

How the f"k would you know when the right time for a statement or update is right? Just because you pishing your knickers doesn't mean the club should pish its knickers right back at you.

There are plenty of people asking for the wider support to demonstrate some patience in this matter. Div being a good example - could it be that this request is coming from the club - surely we can manage that after all they've done for us, or are you just going to wave your season ticket at everyone.

[Seaside Nipper]

I have tried to think of a way to respond to this with the least possible level of abuse so here goes:

How the f"k would you know when the right time for a statement or update is right? Just because you pishing your knickers doesn't mean the club should pish its knickers right back at you.

There are plenty of people asking for the wider support to demonstrate some patience in this matter. Div being a good example - could it be that this request is coming from the club - surely we can manage that after all they've done for us, or are you just going to wave your season ticket at everyone.

Oh ffsake awright..........................

I have never attended the Grammer and I have never wafted my ST anyone's direction. So you can shove that wee nark right up up yer Ronson Also, the elasticity of my internal plumbing is also first rate, so no issues there

A simple observation is that it would be obvious to a blind man walkin his dug that around about now it would be a prudent move by those involved in the ownership transition to offer some insight or update on the progress the BoD are making in the plans to change ownership of the football club

Now what the phuck in common sense land is wrong with that, ya IT nerdie fag

[St. Sid]

I have never attended the Grammer

No shit sherlock.

I would like to see an offer of a meeting for fans setup for maybe 1st week in March. However, you'd end up with some exclusive junky like Stu posting all manner of half understood shite on his diddy web site or worse putting into his diddy journo outlets. I suspect strongly that a meeting will be announced in the not too distant future. Very, very exciting times and mucho pampers (in a nice way) - it is not as do or die as the planning meeting at the cuntcil, but it could be massicve for the club - in a very good way. It's just not quite ready for public consumption.

The good news is that I have already picked out the furnishings for my new office, which will be right next door to the Bar - St Sid's St Mirren Supporting Beer Emporium

[shull]

Shull, when your basic running costs increase, do you deliberately reduce your fares , just curious

As i've said a few times, slash the outrageous salaries of players therefore enabling Clubs to reduce Admission prices.

[Gruffalo]

Thanks, so, as I say, I think the time is now here for 'a statement or update'............don't think that's too unreasonable

However, I suppose from the BoD persepctive, do the fans have any right at all to know anything about this ..............heh hoh

This thread has been the best thread for along time and has not been dragged down by the usual culprits.

The debate has been excellent, but still there are posters running others down for there opinions, questions and knowledge (or lack of). Yet they preach their own knowledge as if it was fact. However in their threads they use words like 'assumed' 'think' 'AFAIAA' etc to run other posters down. We are all fans debating what is going on. There is nothing wrong with that.

The reality is that NONE of really know or underestand what is happening........for fact.

But then you touched on a subject. As fans are we entilied to have a say on how our club is run. (in my own opinion the only people that have the say on the running of a business are the ones who put their money on the line, so no fans don't have a say) However we are entitled to have an opinion and question other fans about the club.

I don't feel the need or desipre to speak to SG or Mr Atkinson about the running of the club, because at the end of the day it is not my business. Afterall I am a customer of the business. Nor do I feel the need to be in the know. All I want is for my Club to be there today and tomorrow.

As a fan my comfort is that at the time of Rogue Reg, SG had the balls to not be swayed by the majority and took a stance against him. That stance came with a great risk both on a personal and professional level. (I know that SG was advised of potential repercussions for what he did). Therefore I have a complete trust in SG and a trust that he will not do something that would jeopardise the club.

But hey ho I am only a fan...............I assume

[pozbaird]

This thread has been the best thread for along time and has not been dragged down by the usual culprits.

The debate has been excellent, but still there are posters running others down for there opinions, questions and knowledge (or lack of). Yet they preach their own knowledge as if it was fact. However in their threads they use words like 'assumed' 'think' 'AFAIAA' etc to run other posters down. We are all fans debating what is going on. There is nothing wrong with that.

The reality is that NONE of really know or underestand what is happening........for fact.

But then you touched on a subject. As fans are we entilied to have a say on how our club is run. (in my own opinion the only people that have the say on the running of a business are the ones who put their money on the line, so no fans don't have a say) However we are entitled to have an opinion and question other fans about the club.

I don't feel the need or desipre to speak to SG or Mr Atkinson about the running of the club, because at the end of the day it is not my business. Afterall I am a customer of the business. Nor do I feel the need to be in the know. All I want is for my Club to be there today and tomorrow.

As a fan my comfort is that at the time of Rogue Reg, SG had the balls to not be swayed by the majority and took a stance against him. That stance came with a great risk both on a personal and professional level. (I know that SG was advised of potential repercussions for what he did). Therefore I have a complete trust in SG and a trust that he will not do something that would jeopardise the club.

But hey ho I am only a fan...............I assume

As a fan though, even if you don't think you deserve to have a say, or to be told what's going on - it would be a foolish person these days not to take on board what the fans are saying and what in the main they seem to want. Getting the stripes back on the strips is the first example IMHO, that our club are taking on board what the fans want - and not only that, they have been moving towards a day where the fans very much DO have a say in what goes on inside the club.

You either find that prospect exciting or scary. Personally I find it new and exciting, and look forward to seeing the detail and small print before I steam in with the many questions I currently have. They may well be answered when the club are ready to launch their vision for the future. They will do that when the time is right - as indeed the current BOD did with the stadium move.

[Gruffalo]

As a fan though, even if you don't think you deserve to have a say, or to be told what's going on - it would be a foolish person these days not to take on board what the fans are saying and what in the main they seem to want. Getting the stripes back on the strips is the first example IMHO, that our club are taking on board what the fans want - and not only that, they have been moving towards a day where the fans very much DO have a say in what goes on inside the club.

You either find that prospect exciting or scary. Personally I find it new and exciting, and look forward to seeing the detail and small print before I steam in with the many questions I currently have. They may well be answered when the club are ready to launch their vision for the future. They will do that when the time is right - as indeed the current BOD did with the stadium move.

The biggest fear to everyone is “change”. I am passive on the change at the moment but excited by the potential.

I can see change already without it being shouted from the rooftops. The community involvement has kicked off with initiatives such as “st sids fat club” The merchandising, the stop to the “mates rates” on corporate and taking on board what the fans want.

Debate and questions are healthy. If Mr Atkinson does read this forum then he may well appreciate the debate and this may well assist on how the idea is presented when it does happen.

I don’t recall questions about the integrity of the incumbent Directors. All that was raised were questions about how all this works and what is in it for them.

I don’t see anything wrong with that. Also I don’t have a problem if there is something in it for them, if they bring a benefit to a business then they should be rewarded. Our board of directors are one of the few boards that don’t take a salary, that in its self show their commitment to the club.

My only criticism of the club in the past I have relate to their lack of community involvement and their inability to sell the club both on a match day level and everyday level. I have spoken to organisations who have been approached by the new community involvement and I am excited by their new found enthusiasm.

My thoughts

We need to get the players more involved in the community (schools, hospitals, clubs prematch etc etc), we should NEVER let anyone into the ground for free, by all means incentives a visit but never for free. We need to work on match day experience. Ie Get them in, make them pay, get them to want to come back and pay